Method Exit bag and inert gas megathread

[thehorizons]

Im confused about what sort of meter I should attach to the nitrogen tank, and how many lpm to set it at?

People use a regulator for the cylinder. Without the regulator you can't control the amount of gas coming out, the sound would be extremely loud (like a screeching sound), and you would run out of gas extremely quick. The cylinder valve initially is what lets the gas out, but when you stick the regulator on there it becomes the thing that lets the gas out and also lets you control how much of it is coming out. Some regulators have flowmeters as well, which makes things easy since you can see what LPM you're at when the gas is being released. Otherwise, you'll just see the PSI only. Nitrogen regulators and Argon regulators are used, but Nitrogen regulators with flowmeters tend to be more difficult to acquire than Argon regulators with flowmeters. If using an Argon regulator with Nitrogen, the important thing to note is one has to make sure that the Argon regulator can fit the cylinder valve (e.g. Argon regulator is CGA-580 and cylinder valve is CGA-580).

As for LPM, it's all over the place on SaSu of the desired amount. Today, I was 'playing' around with my setup to see what the experience would be like and got a sense of what LPM I needed. I used an Argon regulator/flowmeter and set it at 17 LPM (recommended by some SaSu users as being the right amount). I scrunched out all of the air from the exit bag, pulled it down, and inflated the bag. This wasn't the proper protocol since I didn't plan on CTB-ing; in proper protocol you would inflate the exit bag on top of your head first, hyperventilate for 1–2 minutes, pull the exit bag down, and take 1–2 deep breaths. My experience was suddenly hearing a loud ringing sound, wanting to spit/puke, and being disoriented/dizzy. I actually knocked over the cylinder without realizing it until I took the exit bag off. I guess, I was too disoriented/dizzy to notice and/or the ringing sound might have muffled the fall of the cylinder. I bet that if I followed the proper protocol or if I kept on wearing the exit bag, I would've passed out, and, maybe, even CTB-ed. In short, I don't know if 17 LPM with an Argon regulator/flowmeter is the right amount, but it seemed like it would make someone pass out quickly. I think anything less with an Argon regulator/flowmeter and it would be a gradual drift, but one would need more deep breaths.

Additionally, I would recommend you do more research. Iinitially, I thought it was simply finding the right LPM and right equipment, but there are other considerations like checking for leakage, how to construct an exit bag, etc.

 

[pkeylimepie]

I've been told by a couple of Canadians that inert gas is simply not available for sale anymore to the general public there. I hope for the sake of your CTB plan that they left a few stones unturned when they searched for it and that you'll be able to find it.

Appreciate the reply and I hope so too!

Honestly I did have a lot of trouble finding any retail options for helium, with nitrogen it was slightly easier but still extremely restrictive, atleast with nitrogen I had the option to look into brewing supply shops. Your comment did prompt me to check a few things like purity etc so it really helped! I'm planning to pick up in the next few weeks so hopefully it works out.. still struggling with the regulator bit though so hopefully I can find something.

Fuck, Where are you in Canada, i'm from province of Québec, maybe ill face the same issue as you.. ill give you feedback from my experience i feel you when you feel like you dont have the intelligence to put all of this togheter. Its clearly not that easy… Wish you good luck and thx for ur feedback !

I'm in Ontario, hello neighbour :)

bonne chance!

 

[thehorizons]

You pulled off just in time--Das Nichts, he also saw red/green lights before he passed out--heart racing always happens, I did 6 tests, heart jumps because it wants more oxygen--you had no pain, no discomfort, just like me

What LPM were you working with? I was at 17 LPM with an Argon regulator/flowmeter. Were you using an Argon regulator/flowmeter?

 

[Ima-username]

im getting myself confused and keep buying the wrong things is there any links to who to buy from in the uk or what to buy. all these threads and connectors is confusing me. im in a rush and making no progress here. can i get a dm please!

 

[Ima-username]

im only able to find a 10 liters per min regulator... will that work in a pinch the gauge reads upto 16 but theres a red line on 10 and its rated 300 bar but my tank is 200 bars so idk if i can push it upto 15l. I could just fully open it and go for whatever it flows at...
is there any thing i need to know like should i take some meds before hand or tie things or me down. i know to exhale when going in and hyperventilate when i get in to make it faster. i just cant mess this one up.

 

[peace2105]

im getting myself confused and keep buying the wrong things is there any links to who to buy from in the uk or what to buy. all these threads and connectors is confusing me. im in a rush and making no progress here. can i get a dm please!

I am also very confused now! I thought I would do fine by following the first thread…..now it seems there are too many things to check and I don't even know if they are reliable to CTB.

 

[Ima-username]

I am also very confused now! I thought I would do fine by following the first thread…..now it seems there are too many things to check and I don't even know if they are reliable to CTB.

its certainly the most expensive way to go 250+ gbp
i dont care if its painless or not as along as it get the job done im in a rush and really want some sleep. im going to stay up 48 hours before making my attempt and my ctb note will be cut into me as best as i can. ive already got my lower arms covered in words.

i just wanted someone here to check if this regulator will work as the flow rate seems a little low? https://expressweldcare.co.uk/product/starparts-gtech-nitrogen-single-stage-2-gauge-side-entry-300bar-regulator-ssnit2gse/ theres a red mark at 10l/min?

 

[devils~advocate]

I believe that 10 red mark is for 10 bar (145psi). This gauge is the 2nd stage part of the regulator...it shows the pressure of the output.
The other gauge is the pressure in the cylinder.

The flow rate will depend on what is attached at the output. Is it a barb end with a hose. What is the internal size of the hose and length
As the internal size of the hose gets smaller, the more pressure is needed for the same flow.

 

[Leidensgenosse]

I'd been thinking about this method for a while, but it does seem prohibitively expensive, and it seems like there's a lot of different ways for it to go wrong. There's only one site the PPH recommends for the US which is currently charging about $328 for a full tank of argon, which is brutal even without factoring in the other necessary equipment.. I technically could afford it but it's really difficult to justify in my current financial situation unless I then immediately go through with it. Feels pretty surreal just trying to work out the economics of making a plan.

 

[k1w1]

Hi! Appreciate the response, I didn't purchase anything yet but I was able to find some suppliers online for the gas tanks, and reading through this thread I think the other items I've figured out.

That last one I'm struggling with is the regulator because I've contacted a few suppliers I could find online and they all refuse to sell to non medical professionals. My understanding is the regulators function is slightly different to what can be purchased otc or at general supply stores.. I've found something similar but it doesn't seem to quite fit for nitrogen and wasn't sure if I could take the risk. Feels like I've hit a dead end a bit.. harder since I'm in a really desperate state of mind and generally dont have the intelligence to really pull all of this together. still in awe of the crowd in this thread and their efforts.

I'll check out welders supply shops thanks for the tip. Will update if anything comes out of it..

Nobody demands a medical license for a nitrogen regulator as it is an object of industrial hardware.
As suggested above, head to a welding shop, or even big box hardware/retail type places.
Best of luck

 

[Adaephon]

Hello,

We have a relatively big tank/dewar of liquid nitrogen at work, as high as my chest, approximately.
Where we store it, we have an oxygen detector that triggers an alarm if it fall below some level.
I was thinking of just bringing the dewar in a room with me and opening it, considering the evaporation volume of liquid nitrogen. No mask, no valve or anything like this: just pouring down liquid nitrogen on the ground until I'm gone. Would that work? How certain would this method be?

Thanks in advance,

 

[BirdWatcher]

Hello,

We have a relatively big tank/dewar of liquid nitrogen at work, as high as my chest, approximately.
Where we store it, we have an oxygen detector that triggers an alarm if it fall below some level.
I was thinking of just bringing the dewar in a room with me and opening it, considering the evaporation volume of liquid nitrogen. No mask, no valve or anything like this: just pouring down liquid nitrogen on the ground until I'm gone. Would that work? How certain would this method be?

Thanks in advance,

I think industrial workers die every now and then in accidents with tanks like that, so it's certainly deadly. Apparently the people just lay down at work, fall asleep and quickly die. But I don't have any deeper knowledge on accidents like this.

Personally I would think that it seems a bit risky to do something like this unguided by masks/bags and just hope for the best. Randomly flooding rooms and buildings with asphyxiating gas is also probably dangerous for other people around.

 

[Adaephon]

I think industrial workers die every now and then in accidents with tanks like that, so it's certainly deadly. Apparently the people just lay down at work, fall asleep and quickly die. But I don't have any deeper knowledge on accidents like this.

Personally I would think that it seems a bit risky to do something like this unguided by masks/bags and just hope for the best. Randomly flooding rooms and buildings with asphyxiating gas is also probably dangerous for other people around.

Thanks for replying.
You are right about the danger for others. I didn't elaborate but I was thinking doing it during the weekend when no one is at work, and leaving several written notes on entrances and closer to where I will be, to minimize the risk for anyone. If I do it on a Saturday, I assume by Monday the gas will have dissipated.
I don't like the idea of putting on a mask/bag... I have severe anxiety and I think the idea of wearing one would be stressful with SI kicking in. I think it would be easier if I could get in a room with the tank, open it and have it spill the liquid Nitrogen on the ground while I lie down on a table. I just wonder if I would truly feel nothing and if that would certainly work.

 

[NegevChina]

Thank you for your reply! So, just to spell it out:
The Argon to Helium factor is ca. 3.15. This means that if I connect an Argon flowmeter/regulator to a helium cannister I need to set the flowmeter to 5 lpm to actually get 15 lmp of helium. If I set it to 8 lmp I get 25 lmp of helium.

Is this correct? I ask because while doing my research I found an old comment on a welding forum where someone very confidently said that it's the opposite: that you need to set the Argon flowmeter to 48 lpm to get 15 lpm of helium, and that flowmeters don't go that high.

I think this is correct. The actual flow for helium is 3.15 times higher then indicated on the Argon flow meter. Its a large correction factor that's why I prefer using Nitrogen.

 

[Intoxicated]

I don't like the idea of putting on a mask/bag... I have severe anxiety and I think the idea of wearing one would be stressful with SI kicking in.

So, plastic bag or mask is scary, but dealing with a big amount of cryogenic liquid at -195.8 °C isn't scary for you?

I think it would be easier if I could get in a room with the tank, open it and have it spill the liquid Nitrogen on the ground while I lie down on a table.

I presume, you'll get some impressive boiling from that. The room temperature is very hot for liquid nitrogen, so pouring it on the floor would be like pouring water on a surface heated to 300 °C. Good luck with your experiment, bro.

 

[Adaephon]

So, plastic bag or mask is scary, but dealing with a big amount of cryogenic liquid at -195.8 °C isn't scary for you?

I presume, you'll get some impressive boiling from that. The room temperature is very hot for liquid nitrogen, so pouring it on the floor would be like pouring water on a surface heated to 300 °C. Good luck with your experiment, bro.

I appreciate feedback in a constructive, respectful and helpful manner as I'm politely asking questions, thank you.
Yes, you are correct. A plastic bag on my face is scary for me. I would appreciate it if you didn't assume or question what's scary and what is not for me, I don't think that's very respectful, nor is the rest of your tone, "bro".

 

[Intoxicated]

I appreciate feedback in a constructive, respectful and helpful manner as I'm politely asking questions, thank you.

OK, I'll try to be "constructive". Technically, the probability of success depends on

• the mass of evaporated liquid nitrogen (can be estimated from the volume and density) - I'd use at least 1/300 of the volume of the room to ensure success;
• the volume and the geometry of the room (ideally it should be small);
• the location of nitrogen spill and the location of the hole(s) through which oxygen escapes the room (some combinations can produce stagnation of air instead of displacing it out of the room);
• how well other holes between the room and the outer spaces are sealed (you'll probably get strong convection currents due to produced difference of temperatures; convection between the room and the outer spaces can imply cold nitrogen escaping through lower holes and warm air with oxygen entering the room through upper holes);
• how close your location to the location of nitrogen spill is (closer is better for asphyxiation, but may be worse for the level of comfort associated with temperature).

 

[outrider567]

What LPM were you working with? I was at 17 LPM with an Argon regulator/flowmeter. Were you using an Argon regulator/flowmeter?

Nitrogen regulator with 'click-style' flowmeter--Last test I used 25 LPM

 

[sm1the]

Did anyone consider the following (I think this is accurate?) And take it into account?(ie.no caffeine within 6 hours of n2)

Caffeine keeps your brain more alert and your heart rate higher for about 6 hours after you consume it. When you breathe in nitrogen, your brain naturally begins to shut down as oxygen levels drop. Caffeine temporarily blocks the brain's "shutdown" signal, which can delay unconsciousness by a few seconds and cause your heart to beat faster. Waiting 6 hours lets the caffeine clear your system enough so your heart rate stabilizes and your brain shuts down smoothly and predictably. This makes the process more comfortable and reliable from start to finish.

 

[Akon]

Hi everyone.

II've got a small question.

The PPH suggests to use a 2.2 litre disposable nitrogen cylinder and set the flow at 15 litres/min.

The numbers don't add up: how can 15 litres flow out of the cylinder if the cylinder contains only 2.2 litres?

 

[Adaephon]

OK, I'll try to be "constructive". Technically, the probability of success depends on

• the mass of evaporated liquid nitrogen (can be estimated from the volume and density) - I'd use at least 1/300 of the volume of the room to ensure success;
• the volume and the geometry of the room (ideally it should be small);
• the location of nitrogen spill and the location of the hole(s) through which oxygen escapes the room (some combinations can produce stagnation of air instead of displacing it out of the room);
• how well other holes between the room and the outer spaces are sealed (you'll probably get strong convection currents due to produced difference of temperatures; convection between the room and the outer spaces can imply cold nitrogen escaping through lower holes and warm air with oxygen entering the room through upper holes);
• how close your location to the location of nitrogen spill is (closer is better for asphyxiation, but may be worse for the level of comfort associated with temperature).

Thanks a lot, that's very valuable. I will think about it and work carefully on a plan, but on the other I might get access to N actually so this would be even easier...
Cheers.

 

[Intoxicated]

I will think about it and work carefully on a plan

I forgot to mention that draught across the room (when wind streams enter the room from one side and leave it from the opposite side) should also be reduced to minimum.

Basically, the goal is to achieve <6% O₂ at the head for at least 8 minutes (better 20 - 30 minutes). This is not impossible to do by displacing oxygen from a room, but some non-trivial engineering planning is required to ensure success.

Oxygen Deficiency Hazards and Asphyxiation

ehs.lbl.gov

 

[sm1the]

Nitrogen regulator with 'click-style' flowmeter--Last test I used 25 LPM

Hey what breathing pattern will u use with eebd?
I remember u have an ELSA I think so I thought I'd ask.

 

[BirdWatcher]

Hi everyone.

II've got a small question.

The PPH suggests to use a 2.2 litre disposable nitrogen cylinder and set the flow at 15 litres/min.

The numbers don't add up: how can 15 litres flow out of the cylinder if the cylinder contains only 2.2 litres?

There are two ways to state how much gas is inside a cylinder. You can give the volume of how much water the tank's size could theoretically hold, or you can say how much of the specified gas is actually in there. The gas inside a cylinder is compresses at a pressure given in bar. 1 bar = the normal pressure of the air around us. A common pressure value is 200 bar, but you should obviously check what your cylinder specifically has.

For example: If your cylinder states it has 2.2L at 200 Bar you have to calculat: 2.2 x 200 = 440 L of actual gas inside it.

At 15 L/min 440L gives you 440 : 15 = 29 minutes of gas flow.

 

[Intoxicated]

For example: If your cylinder states it has 2.2L at 200 Bar you have to calculat: 2.2 x 200 = 440 L of actual gas inside it.

At 15 L/min 440L gives you 440 : 15 = 29 minutes of gas flow.

It looks like 200 bar is a bit too high pressure that makes the compressibility of nitrogen slightly different from that of ideal gas. Strictly speaking, at >-147 °C and >34 bar nitrogen exists as a supercritical fluid. According to this calculator, the density of nitrogen at 20 °C and 1 bar is 1.1508 kg/m³, whereas the density of nitrogen at 20 °C and 200 bar is 219 kg/m³. 219 / 1.1508 ≈ 190.3. After conversion of bars to standard atmospheres the compression ratio would be about 188x, assuming that the temperature is not changed. If the temperature decreases due to gas expansion, the density of nitrogen increases, resulting in a smaller expansion ratio. On the other hand, the real atmospheric pressure is often less than 760 mmHg (or 1 standard atm), so the compression ratio could be higher than estimated based on the previous considerations.

 

[sm1the]

I been looking at methods of restraining your upper body and hands kin N2 method) quite tirelessly.

I came across this and I'm wondering if this is a secure and viable method?-.

Arm-to-Waist Lock (Loop-Through System)

PURPOSE:
To secure the arms to the waist, maintain an upright torso position, and prevent the upper body from folding forward during procedure.

COMPONENTS REQUIRED:
1× Two-piece adjustable luggage strap (with standard buckle) 50mmx2m.
2× Stretch cord loops (or elastic wrist loops)25mm x 50cm.

SETUP :
Place both wrist loops securely on your wrists.
Wrap the luggage strap around your hips/waist and chair.
Thread buckle ends of the luggage strap through both wrist loops
Bring the two buckle halves together in your lap.
Do not click shut yet. Hold the buckle halves together with your hands. The strap should be snug but not fully tightened.

LOCKING ACTION:
Once the hood is donned immediately click the buckle halves shut (move wrist to either side of body).
This pulls the strap tight around your waist, drawing your wrists inward against your hips.

BIOMECHANICAL FUNCTION:
Arm Lock: The strap forms a continuous loop through both wrists, tying them together at the waist.
Prevents Forward Folding: By pulling the arms inward against the hips, the strap creates a rigid triangular tension across the torso. This limits spinal flexion and locks the upper body in a stable, upright position.
Self-Contained: No external anchor is needed. The tension is generated entirely by the strap and the position of the arms.
Recliner Compatible: Designed to work with the chair set at a 45° angle, keeping the torso supported while the arms remain secured.

KEY POINTS FOR REVIEW/FEEDBACK:
Does the loop-through tension effectively restrict forward spinal flexion?
Is the buckle placement in the lap optimal for a smooth, immediate click action right after hood sealing?
Will the inward pull of the arms cause any discomfort or restrict breathing over time?
Are there any alternative strap configurations that would improve stability without increasing complexity?.

 

[outrider567]

Hey what breathing pattern will u use with eebd?
I remember u have an ELSA I think so I thought I'd ask.

What's an ELSA?

 

[devils~advocate]

What's an ELSA?

ELSA (Emergency Life Support Apparatus)
I think its a certain manufacturer take on an Emergency Escape Breathing Device (EEBD).

 

[sm1the]

What's an ELSA?

ELSA EEBD.
Made my big multi national that's famous for breathing gear.
If you search online u can't miss it.its probably the most popular EEBD.

I'm sorry for some reason I thought u were using an ELSA, so I thought I would ask how you intend to breathe.

 

[devils~advocate]

With this ctb method, is there a chance for arm / leg movement? Ive read of others concerns for this.
I thought about using a lounge chair and straps for the arms and legs....similar to what others have shown in their setups.
But didnt know if it was a major concern or not.

What about other issues, i.e. vomiting, etc. Should one probably refrain from drinking or eating anything several hours before?