How would incels be perceived today if instead of going down the path of hate, they were kind and solely focused on ctb?

[Siamese Believe]

It's something I've been curious about. I by definition would be considered one. I'm ugly, short, virgin, etc. But I do not hate or wish harm on anyone.

Logically I feel the best solution to bad genetics is suicide. I cannot change my body. I can't make myself tall, handsome, good looking, smart, etc. So I'll just kill myself, simple as is.

I had no say in the body or life that I got. I could not consent to looking like this, I don't consider this body to define who I am because it's unfair.

No amount of suffering you could cause others would ever make them physically attracted to you, it won't make people like, desire, or love you. It's pointless violence and hate.

 

[artificialpasta]

if instead of going down the path of hate, they were kind

Then they wouldn't be incels... incel doesn't literally just mean a male virgin, it's a belief system that says "it's women's fault I can't have sex"

 

[Szarur-abi]

It's something I've been curious about. I by definition would be considered one. I'm ugly, short, virgin, etc. But I do not hate or wish harm on anyone.

Logically I feel the best solution to bad genetics is suicide. I cannot change my body. I can't make myself tall, handsome, good looking, smart, etc. So I'll just kill myself, simple as is.

I had no say in the body or life that I got. I could not consent to looking like this, I don't consider this body to define who I am because it's unfair.

No amount of suffering you could cause others would ever make them physically attracted to you, it won't make people like, desire, or love you. It's pointless violence and hate.

tbh probably noone would hear of them if they werent producing mass murderers at factory speed. Also it used to be different i mean, the first incel ideas were formulated by a single woman in the 90s or early 2000s and they werent violent and well known.

But it have been hijacked or something along the way.

Also being lonely is shared human experience tbh. many people kill themself cause of broken heart (that usually just broke the last straw) or being chronically alone all day all life etc etc. and by all accounts society at large puts individual responsbility on such persons. Or just dont care at all, so in anology if incels werent currently a hatred filled online space that sparks violence from time to time then it would probably go mostly unnoticed.

 

[heydude56]

"Best solution to bad genetics is suicide"
Never agreed more

 

[Szarur-abi]

Essentially this. Well yea it would be better for everyone who struggles in relations if this catched on instead of what we got.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Difficult to know really. If we look at the groups/ traits of people most prone to suicide country by country- is all that much being done to help them? Probably not- if the rates of suicide are still high. Are the disabled thought any more highly of because some choose to die? Are people admired for self harming, rather than harming others? No- they're just seen as crazy.

Sometimes, a group of people in a certain area all commiting suicide can draw attention to problems there. Lack of jobs, lack of healthcare or mental healthcare support etc.

Maybe vast quantities of incels killing themselves may make sociologists start writing essays of the affects of modern life on men. I'm not sure it would influence culture so much to make women find all types of men equally attractive though- if that's the hope. Anymore than men find all types of women attractive.

I usually find saying that tends to result in the argument that men's standards are lower- at least for casual sex. I wonder truly how enamoured they'd be with only being offered sex though- along with possible STD's, pregnancy and being left to raise the child alone. All of which I've known women to experience when they got 'lucky'.

In regards to perception though, if they didn't have such a reputation and weren't actually misogynistic, they'd likely generate more feelings of sympathy I expect. As it is, it's more like hate and resentment flying in all directions- in certain cases. Again- not all.

I'd also agree with the above member that- part- but obviously not all of the issue putting women off them is that they can sense the hate, disgruntlement and resentment they feel towards women in general. So, without that, their character would be more attractive. So- they may not be a hateful incel or lonely incel to begin with that way. Not every man dating is drop dead gorgeous, six foot tall or enormously wealthy. Not all women are solely fixated on those things. Although- the women they feel drawn to may well be of course.

 

[U. A.]

Then they wouldn't be incels... incel doesn't literally just mean a male virgin, it's a belief system that says "it's women's fault I can't have sex"

The thread can be closed now, nothing else had to be said after the first reply. @mods please

 

[itsgone2]

It's something I've been curious about. I by definition would be considered one. I'm ugly, short, virgin, etc. But I do not hate or wish harm on anyone.

It's sad so many on here recently seem to feel the same way.
Society seems almost impossible anymore. Like it's almost impossible to just be a normal person with a regular job you can count on.
I wish you didn't feel this way. Ultimately you sound like a kind person.

 

[DeathSweetDeath]

They could just be kind and focus on other things besides CTB. I've known a number of objectively VERY unattractive couples throughout my life, and they seem like some of the happiest & most solid couples I've met.

 

[Deepdense]

Your perception is your downfall.

 

[Dejected 55]

Here's a hot take... I think most incels are kind and shy and introverted and are depressed about being alone and don't know how to fix things.

BUT

The ones who make the news are the loud ones that are hateful and sometimes violent... like in all things, the worst examples of humanity seem to get the most air time. And over time "incel" came to be mostly associated with the loud horrible ones... and now everyone else has to hide even more because if they come out and try to speak to their depression and misery and whatnot, people jump to lump them in with the more vocal horrible ones.

People like to group things... so if 10 horrible people like Dungeons & Dragons, then D&D becomes a bad thing that must be shunned... if 10 horrible people are incels, then the other 50 get treated as if they are exactly the same.

What we should be doing is isolating the horrible people from the troubled people... and trying to listen and help the troubled ones while saying "fuck off" to the horrible ones... and stop letting horrible people dominate the news and information cycles and take over words and labels as their own and prevent everyone ekse from being able to use them.

There is no longer a kind acceptable way to talk about being involuntarily celibate without being labeled and lumped in with the "incel" movement of the bad people who monopolized the airways with their hate.

The same thing has happened with feminism too... The original feminist movement is sometimes hijacked by people who aren't feminists at all but use the word to be horrible. Proper feminists who just want equality and opportunity and to be heard sometimes struggle against the noise of the rare ones who are louder and easier to rail against as if they represent the entire movement.

Look at any marginalized group of people and you find a tendency of a small portion of them to be out of hand and not at all representative of the truth, but those few are louder and get the press and opposition to the legitimate movement also gets a scapegoat to put up as representative of them all and so continue to oppose the legitimate complaints of the others.

 

[deadngoresurgery]

tbh probably noone would hear of them if they werent producing mass murderers at factory speed. Also it used to be different i mean, the first incel ideas were formulated by a single woman in the 90s or early 2000s and they werent violent and well known.

But it have been hijacked or something along the way.

Also being lonely is shared human experience tbh. many people kill themself cause of broken heart (that usually just broke the last straw) or being chronically alone all day all life etc etc. and by all accounts society at large puts individual responsbility on such persons. Or just dont care at all, so in anology if incels werent currently a hatred filled online space that sparks violence from time to time then it would probably go mostly unnoticed.

Agreed. They're in an echo chamber where they affirm each others ideas and beliefs.

 

[WhatCouldHaveBeen32]

Someone already said this, they wouldn't be incels.

If anything they'd just be people who kill themselves because... *checks notes* they don't want to diet and workout for 2 years to off set 'bad genetics'. Which is a weird thing to do but I don't judge...? I guess?

Just seems somewhat stupid if all your problems are that you are below average looking. A haircut, a sense of style and 2 years of dieting and working out will put you WAY above the average and you will be physically healthy for yourself, better to live in a healthy body than a dumpster.

"Lack" of generic intelligence (programming, language learning, math, chemistry, physics) can be honed into physical skills like guitar, cooking, baking, knitting... Hell, if you can diet or work out you've already learned 2 skills that might attract someone who like you would be considered (by themselves) below average and wants to get better (in the eyes of society and their own). What will attract them to you will not be your looks but your desire to improve, you would share a common interest.

Like c'mon. Someone else already said it, your perception is your downfall.

You can't make yourself tall and that's it, the rest are in your control.

When I was presenting as a boy/man, I got asked out a couple of times. I refused (I'm aromantic asexual) but know that at the time I wasn't working out, I wasn't dieting and I am 160cm (since I was 14). I even asked why because we were colleagues at the time and the answer that I got in like 3 or 4 cases was that I was kind to them and they wished someone like that was present in their lives. I obviously stayed friends/acquaintances (with whom I could) until we parted ways in our adult lives.

Now that doesn't mean it's a guarantee everytime but that was my experience.

 

[rs929]

Don't forget "incel" is also used as a derogatory term. It's basically an excuse to hate any heterocis boy/man that doesn't agree with the hegemonic agenda

 

[artificialpasta]

Here's a hot take... I think most incels are kind and shy and introverted and are depressed about being alone and don't know how to fix things.

BUT

The ones who make the news are the loud ones that are hateful and sometimes violent... like in all things, the worst examples of humanity seem to get the most air time. And over time "incel" came to be mostly associated with the loud horrible ones... and now everyone else has to hide even more because if they come out and try to speak to their depression and misery and whatnot, people jump to lump them in with the more vocal horrible ones.

People like to group things... so if 10 horrible people like Dungeons & Dragons, then D&D becomes a bad thing that must be shunned... if 10 horrible people are incels, then the other 50 get treated as if they are exactly the same.

What we should be doing is isolating the horrible people from the troubled people... and trying to listen and help the troubled ones while saying "fuck off" to the horrible ones... and stop letting horrible people dominate the news and information cycles and take over words and labels as their own and prevent everyone ekse from being able to use them.

There is no longer a kind acceptable way to talk about being involuntarily celibate without being labeled and lumped in with the "incel" movement of the bad people who monopolized the airways with their hate.

An incel isn't just literally just someone who is a lonely male who is "involuntarily celibate", it's someone who adopts an ideology about how the world works. So whether they've taken violent action or not, the problem is the belief itself: some men are doomed because women are gatekeeping sex. If one doesn't share that belief, then he isn't an incel.

The same thing has happened with feminism too... The original feminist movement is sometimes hijacked by people who aren't feminists at all but use the word to be horrible. Proper feminists who just want equality and opportunity and to be heard sometimes struggle against the noise of the rare ones who are louder and easier to rail against as if they represent the entire movement.

Not analogous. Yes there are insane feminists but the core of feminism isn't problematic the way incel, by definition, is.

 

[whocaresnobodycares]

Well, I'm sure there's variations of what I'm gonna say above (sorry to be lazy, but it's after midnight here and I'm sleeping soon), but by definition an "incel" is involuntarily celibate-- they WANT to screw but there's no takers, as it were..... so that includes ALL KINDA of people, of every philosophical spectrum or politeness-level. I'm "incel" to a degree, but then I gave up trying OR looking.

I can tell you this for sure-- just because you've had sex with 1, 10, 100, or 1000 people DOES NOT MEAN you EVER will again. Anyone who says "People can sense the confidence on you" is being stupid and mystical about it. That's bullshit. OF COURSE confidence is important, but you can be cocky as ALL hell and still be as sexy as a turnip, to use a Lester-Bangsism

 

[artificialpasta]

Well, I'm sure there's variations of what I'm gonna say above (sorry to be lazy, but it's after midnight here and I'm sleeping soon), but by definition an "incel" is involuntarily celibate-- they WANT to screw but there's no takers, as it were..... so that includes ALL KINDA of people, of every philosophical spectrum or politeness-level. I'm "incel" to a degree, but then I gave up trying OR looking.

Yes incel is a portmanteau of "involuntary celibate" but that doesn't mean everyone who is involuntarily celibate is an incel. That's like saying an American is literally anyone from the Americas because it's in the name, or that the DPRK (North Korea) is democratic because the D stands for democratic. Just consider the obvious case: there are infertile men, men who have lost motor control over their body, and so on who do not identify as incels and live happy and fulfilling lives.

So, again, incels are not just lonely male virgins, they are a subculture/movement of men who believe that a) they are doomed not to have sex again because of factors outside of their control and b) "women gatekeeping sex" is one of those factors. If you do not identify or sympathize with that belief then you are not an incel, it's as simple as that.

 

[Falling_apart]

The annoying thing is I keep seeing the word used both ways. I also see it used for men the commenter simply doesn't like, even if they have no trouble romantically. I've never had a girlfriend, and the loneliness is unbearable. But I don't hate women for it, I know I'm undatable. I'm an autistic recluse on disability allowance. I think we need a new word. How about "lovelorn?"

 

[Dejected 55]

An incel isn't just literally just someone who is a lonely male who is "involuntarily celibate", it's someone who adopts an ideology about how the world works. So whether they've taken violent action or not, the problem is the belief itself: some men are doomed because women are gatekeeping sex. If one doesn't share that belief, then he isn't an incel.

Not analogous. Yes there are insane feminists but the core of feminism isn't problematic the way incel, by definition, is.

Because the language has been co-opted. I stand by what I said. People who are involuntarily celibate but not assholes have had their label co-opted by the incels who are assholes. It is frankly just as unfair to the benign involuntarily celibate people as it is to the women that the assholes are acting horrible to...

Humans are always co-opting and corrupting language and twisting it... I could name lots of examples, but I don't know that it is worth it to go down that rabbit hole and distract from this conversation.

This is a "what if" topic that asks how would incels be perceived today if they went down a different path... so I merely posit that most incels didn't go down that path. The majority of involuntarily celibate people are benign and sad and not hating and blaming all women for their problems... BUT, sadly, the vocal asshole minority gets all the press and has co-opted the conversation. We see it all the time and good movements have had their good name ruined by the assholes ruining their situation and reputation for everyone.

So my answer to this "what if" question is that most incels didn't go down the bad path, but are judged as if they did anyway because of the loud minority of assholes who did... so, I think the question answers itself... society is going to judge a group of people based on what is done by the worst of them. We see this in stereotypes of races, genders, religions, and all sorts of movements in society. You can have 100 members of your particular thing and if 5 of them are assholes they ruin it for everyone else. It's literally the old "one bad apple spoils the bunch" cliche in operation.

There is literally nothing the majority of benign involuntarily celibate people can do to talk about what they are experiencing and be heard and understood as long as people continue to allow the minority of assholes to ruin and obscure the original message.

 

[whocaresnobodycares]

Language is inherently fluid, and dependent on context.

I don't believe artificialpasta has a Foucaltian background, which is fine, as he is relatively obscure, philosophical, French, and dead.

WORDS MEAN DIFFERENT THINGS TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

THERE ARE NOT HARD definitions. People take different things, and add different meanings, to words. Good examples are "peace," "justice," or the phrase "good government."
This is also apparent in the fiction of Milan Kundera. People hear the same word and have different values/ experiences/ reactions/ associations with them. I'm hardly an expert on post-modern language theory, so I'd say-- read some Michel Foucault to see what I mean (or just The Unbearable Lightness Of Being by Kundera.... yes, it was an NC-17 movie; and NO, it is NOT "just a sex book." Very far from it. That's what (movie director) Philip Kaufman decided to focus on.. It's not a BAD movie, but not germane to the POINT of the novel, as is the case with so many movies.)
I reiterate what I said before -- "incel" STANDS FOR "involuntarily celibate."
You can say it's "a right=wing, women-hating movement," because THAT'S what the internet generally interprets, in America, recently.
BUT, it STANDS FOR "involuntarily celibate," which is a bigger net cast over humanity than just "Trump fans," which is quite reductive.
It's a biased, selective, individual interpretation of a very recent term open to interpretations other than "this is how the women-hating right wingers see the term." That's a specific fraction of the term.

 

[artificialpasta]

Because the language has been co-opted. I stand by what I said. People who are involuntarily celibate but not assholes have had their label co-opted by the incels who are assholes. It is frankly just as unfair to the benign involuntarily celibate people as it is to the women that the assholes are acting horrible to...

Humans are always co-opting and corrupting language and twisting it... I could name lots of examples, but I don't know that it is worth it to go down that rabbit hole and distract from this conversation.

So what exactly do you mean by "incel"? As an insult it can refer to anyone, but if we're having a serious conversation we need to refer to its proper definition. If you just mean any lonely depressed male then you're playing into the distortion of language as well. Words mean things and unless we agree on what we mean we cannot have a productive conversation. When people like myself speak critically of incels, it's because we mean incel by the proper definition, which includes a specific attitude against women and around a desire to have sex.

 

[U. A.]

Don't forget "incel" is also used as a derogatory term. It's basically an excuse to hate any heterocis boy/man that doesn't agree with the hegemonic agenda

ahahahhahahah


wanna take a guess where that's from if you don't know? c'mon, try.

i bet you know already. if you don't, time to wake up:
its the top of the Rules and FAQ of incel.is — the forum founded by the very same people who founded this one (which is a whole oth4r can of worms I need not get into now).

IT'S NOT DEROGATORY IF THEY'RE EXCLUSIONARY!
go to that forum right now. look at the disgusting violent shit its 35,400 members are writing about. literally rape and murder. @Dejected 55 same goes for you. you wanna talk about co-opting? i know you know this term was invented by a woman and initially meant to refer to anyone.

but guess what? language isn't fucking static, it's alive. meanings change and shift. the word "nice" is a great example, originally meant foolish. don't make bullshit strawmen implying words need to be "reclaimed", get over the loss. this word means what we know it means. @artificialpasta's analogy of the name DPRK not magically making them democratic is on point.

the ideolgy can't be willed away while it continues to ensnare impressionable young men and brainwash them into thinking women are evil for not offering them their genitals on silver platters and consequently deserve to be murdered (again, go to the website above and you will see people saying this shit)

 

[katara]

Don't forget "incel" is also used as a derogatory term. It's basically an excuse to hate any heterocis boy/man that doesn't agree with the hegemonic agenda

Ummm
It's used as derogatory bc men made it that way by excluding women and saying it's ok to rape us

 

[martyrdom]

Don't forget "incel" is also used as a derogatory term. It's basically an excuse to hate any heterocis boy/man that doesn't agree with the hegemonic agenda

The hegemonic agenda of what exactly? Feminism? The idea that men oppress women?

Why don't we try to remember what has been the "hegemonic agenda" of the global world for the past several centuries? Forced marriage, widespread & constant (and often sanctioned) rape, femicide, no voting rights for half the population, no rights to own property, have money, or be independent for half the population, sexual slavery, unpaid labor while not being allowed to earn money for such labor, denial of healthcare, honor killings, the list goes on. Being an incel is shameful and derogatory because they, self-admittedly, want to bring this back - they want state-mandated wives (or some form of arranged marriage), which we DID have, for most of human history (and still do have in many communities). The virulent misogynistic ones hate themselves because they SHOULD, they have very good reasons to, they aren't victims for it.

So let's see what this "hegemonic agenda" actually is. Can you name one instance in which a man was gang raped by multiple women? A country or community which has a large-scale problem of domestic violence by female perpetrators against male victims? Conglomerates of women trafficking adult men? A law that has been drafted (not even passed, just drafted) which restricts male rights or oppresses men on the bases of them being men? A sorority which routinely rapes men at their parties? A country which has never had a male leader? A country which has never had a male politician? A country in which women force men to be bound to the home? A country in which it's normal and often mandatory for male genitals to be cut, sewed up and deformed to the extent that they can't have sex until they marry (often to a much older woman), and even when they do, sex is immensely painful and causes lifelong health problems? A country in which it's normal and acceptable for adult women to watch videos in which young men and boys are raped, pretend to be raped, hit, often with multiple women abusing them, strangled, and generally is socially acceptable that adult women enjoy seeing men in pain or abused during sex, and at any moment any woman can access millions of such videos on the internet? A world religion that believes God is a woman, and that men are inferior? An instance in which a female rapist of a man was deemed innocent because we shouldn't ruin her future over one mistake, she has her entire life ahead of her? A country which has a problem of adult women marrying underage boys? A country in which men can't go to school? A country or community that widely idolizes female philosophers and scientists who wrote that men are by nature inferior, or has built its entire intellectual and cultural traditions on such philosophers? A man in history who has lived as a woman in order to access basic human rights that he couldn't because he was a man? A country in which at any point in history, men couldn't vote or otherwise take part in political decisions because they were men? A country in which men are afraid to walk outside alone, because they might be raped or murdered by women? A country or community in which it's normal for men to be ashamed of their bodies and their natural features and for it to be socially expected to remove their body hair starting at the ages of 9-13, and to put makeup on their faces so that they are closer to a beauty standard, and if they don't, they often are barred from a lot of job opportunities because they are viewed as unhygienic, not taking care of themselves, unpolished, or unprofessional? A country which has a huge androcide problem? A country in which women often create deepfake AI porn of men they know? (Nevermind that, a country in which women often create deepfake AI rape footage to provide evidence for their numerous "false rape accusations", since you guys often love to bring up how huge of a problem this is supposed to be?) A country which has a huge problem of women routinely raping men daily? A country in which men have not been allowed, at any point in history, to own property on the basis of their sex? A country in which men have not been allowed to work on the basis of their sex? A country in which medicine is tested on female bodies, and the pharmaceutical industry neglects to research the efficacy or side effects of medicine in men? A country in which car protection and other safety measures are built specifically for female bodies, and neglect to be studied to offer the same benefit to men? A country in which exclusively male health problems are not researched at all, or research for them is severely underfunded? A country or community in which men are shamed or it is viewed as taboo to speak about their natural bodily functions, or their bodies? A country in which male genitals are often operated on (without the man's knowledge or consent) in order to make sex more pleasurable for their wives? A community, society or country which considers men to be naturally less logical, more emotional, more submissive, and more stupid? A country or community which has drafted actual laws based on the idea that men are naturally less logical, more emotional, more submissive, and more stupid? One equivalent to the medical concept of hysteria for men, and the historical abuses resulting from it? A country in which rape of men by women is so under-persecuted & carries such light sentences that it's effectively legal?

Because I know you will respond with "patriarchy/female oppression exists but not today/in the west", I've gone ahead and bolded every single thing I mentioned in the above that also happens today and in the west to women. The hegemonic agenda is not feminism based on real life statistics and men who disagree with feminism are hated because they are ignoring all of the above and often contribute to much of the above. Most of the male population today IS oppressed, and we are oppressed severely, but not by women, not by feminism, and not on the basis of our sex.

Go ahead and browse the site @U. A. linked for you. Incels deserve absolutely no sympathy from anyone. And the incel worldview is not new, the idea that men are entitled to women is as old as humanity, the incel ideology is just a natural development of the same narrative in reaction to the fact that men, generally, now have to actually offer something and be chosen by women, rather than being given women as property (and they rationalize their inability to be chosen through a slew of ideas that shifts accountability from themselves and their behavior onto some natural fate or biological force - bad genetics, evil female nature, etc). When you've been the dominant class for so long, equality feels like oppression.

 

[Arvayn]

This isn't even about suicide, wrong forum to post this in. Anyway...

Why won't any women fuck me?
Why won't any women suck my greasy sack of meat?
Why won't any women love me?
Why won't any women accept my unbrushed teeth?

I only shower once a week,
I do not talk and I am meek,
But the problem is women, not me,
And now they'll pay the ultimate fee!

 

[Happy Cat]

They shouldn't focus on ctb-ing though... That's just wrong. Maybe they should focus on doing something productive in life instead of wasting it?

 

[Dejected 55]

So what exactly do you mean by "incel"? As an insult it can refer to anyone, but if we're having a serious conversation we need to refer to its proper definition. If you just mean any lonely depressed male then you're playing into the distortion of language as well. Words mean things and unless we agree on what we mean we cannot have a productive conversation. When people like myself speak critically of incels, it's because we mean incel by the proper definition, which includes a specific attitude against women and around a desire to have sex.

The word incel was coined to mean involuntarily celibate. As @whocaresnobodycares said above, that's what the word means and it casts a wide net over a larger group of men than most want to refer to... These days the louder assholery of a minority of incels has made this a bad word. I say as I said before, there are people trying to make "feminism" into a bad word because of a handful of people who take it too far. Accepting the reductive meanings of such words is allowing the minority of hateful people to dominate the messaging.

What are the males who are legitimately involuntarily celibate but who are not hateful and violent and yelling at women supposed to do? Everytime the handful of assholes do something and co-opt the name of their cause, the suffering people have to change everything again?

Do all Muslims have to rename their religion because a minority of them are terrorists? I mean, there are islamic terrorists who cite their religion as the reason for their actions... but the decent and intelligent among us recognize this is a majority. Or how about Christians? Catholics in particular must change their name of their religion because of the child molestation by priests, right? And white people... we can't be white people anymore because white people owned a lot of black slaves, so we need to change our name because of that sordid past. And men in general... since there are bad men who do bad things, the rest of us who don't do the bad things need a new name because we can't say "it's not all men" without starting a shitstorm.

Why do we as a society endorse the minority of hateful people who co-opt movements to do so? We should call them out and not allow them to call themselves by the names of our various groups who are not for that hatred and oppression.

The term "incel" was originally coined in 1993, approximately, and was originally a shorthand for "involuntarily celibate" and it included men and women in its grouping. Somewhere around 2010 a much smaller grouping of hateful men co-opted it to refer only to themselves... and somehow even though the original term had 15+ years behind it, the hateful people were able to take over the meaning of the word... leaving the larger group of men and women, who were trying to bond and discuss their involuntary celibacy and how to deal with it, to scramble and they can't even call themselves "involuntarily celibate" anymore because people jump right to "incel" and those words are kind of ruined now too.

And again, this is a "what if" thread asking "what if" things had gone different... and what I'm saying is, we should never have let the hateful minority take over the conversation as if they were the authority on involuntary celibacy.

 

[martyrdom]

Is the silent majority of non-hateful incels in the room with us right now?

 

[Unlucky777]

It's something I've been curious about. I by definition would be considered one. I'm ugly, short, virgin, etc. But I do not hate or wish harm on anyone.

You are NOT an incel. You carry yourself well based on your posts and you seem like you have a good heart and mean really well but you are just caught up in physical appearances.

You're good in my book

 

[artificialpasta]

The word incel was coined to mean involuntarily celibate. As @whocaresnobodycares said above, that's what the word means and it casts a wide net over a larger group of men than most want to refer to... These days the louder assholery of a minority of incels has made this a bad word.

We really are just referring to two different things. Regardless of the origin of the word, language evolves over time. So it may have been an umbrella term in the 1990s or whenever but today the conventional definition is specific to men who hold a hostile attitude against women over sex. And because this is the conventional definition it makes sense to assume that when someone else uses the word that is what they're referring to.

I'm not familiar with the history but I find it plausible that the term was hijacked as you say. A loose collection of individuals online who roughly share the same experience of loneliness and doomerism doesn't have the foundation, motivation, and mechanisms a 2000-year old religion has. I can see why it sucks for someone who was part of that original community in its early days that identified as incels but other than there isn't anything at stake by being conscious of the language and avoiding confusion.

And again, this is a "what if" thread asking "what if" things had gone different... and what I'm saying is, we should never have let the hateful minority take over the conversation as if they were the authority on involuntary celibacy.

Yeah fair enough but I don't see anything special about the word incel. The community can reorganize around a different identity.