How would incels be perceived today if instead of going down the path of hate, they were kind and solely focused on ctb?

[ToANewWorld]

How would incels be percieved if instead of going down the path of hate they focused on going to Tijuana and Thailand?

Edit : All joking aside. Experiencing no love in life is a horrible thing and I can sympathize with any incel that feels this is worth CBTing over. But realistically, you aren't owed love. There is no law that says you have to experience teenage love, or a first kiss, or what is like to have a girlfriend. As wonderful as it could be for you this experience can only be given consentually.

The most you can do is work on yourself so you become love-able or find something else that brings you joy. If you are really lonely visit an escort.

What can I say. Is a cold world out there and some of your ancestors had to deal with way worse life circumstances.

 

[martyrdom]

How would incels be percieved if instead of going down the path of hate they focused on going to Tijuana and Thailand?

Are you talking about sex tourism?? Aka rape???

 

[Bootleg Astolfo]

If theyre not horny degenerates that only think of sex, are they really incels lol

 

[ToANewWorld]

Are you talking about sex tourism?? Aka rape???

Not talking about rape. I am talking about sex work. and sex work is real work.

 

[martyrdom]

Not talking about rape. I am talking about sex work. and sex work is real work.

"If you are really lonely visit an escort." = if you really are lonely, financially coerce a woman into sex!

You can repeat the "sex work is work" mantra all you want but it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of women in sex work are exploited, underage, don't want to be there, are trafficked, groomed, need to do it to survive, etc. There is absolutely nothing shameful in being a sex worker. But it is utterly disgusting to be a sex buyer. You know what else is work? Slave labor, it's still work. You know what else is work? Sweatshops. But we don't support those, do we? It's financial coercion, it's rape. One person wants to have sex, the other person doesn't. Money takes the place of consent and mutual attraction. That's not real consent. Even DESPITE all of that, why the fuck would you ever be okay with having sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you and wouldn't if they weren't being paid? How is that genuine consent, how is that not a rapist mentality? Sex is not a service, women's bodies aren't commodities.

And even if you ignore all this, you have to be extremely sheltered or ignorant to not know how vile and disgusting sex tourism is because all these women in Thailand and Tijuana are usually underage and being fucking trafficked.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

don't make bullshit strawmen implying words need to be "reclaimed"

I honestly don't understand the reclaiming thing. Words cannot be reclaimed unless they are being used by the people they harmed to begin with, enmass.

If we can get hundreds of AFABs who experience discrimination from incels to use the term, then yeah, sure. Maybe redefine it to mean "I am involuntarily celibate because dating has been made unsafe due to the patriarchy."

But if you say "incel" outside of that little bubble, people will know the current definition. If someone said "SI" anywhere but SaSu, it'd mean "Suicidal Ideation." Words are contextual.

 

[martyrdom]

Maybe redefine it to mean "I am involuntarily celibate because dating has been made unsafe due to te patriarchy."

That's a thing btw - 4B movement. I admire those women so much.

 

[ToANewWorld]

And even if you ignore all this, you have to be extremely sheltered or ignorant to not know how vile and disgusting sex tourism is because all these women in Thailand and Tijuana are usually underage and being fucking trafficked.

Respectfully, I don't think you know what you are talking about but point taken about coercion and sex trafficking being wrong. To the OP : DONT take my joke as literal advice! The sex workers in Thailand or Tijuana according to this person is 99.9% underage and trafficked. Find a sex worker that is doing her job voluntarily, legally, and above the age of consent.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

Can you name one instance in which a man was gang raped by multiple women?

I agree with most of your post, but I've literally met men who were gangraped by women.

Instead of talking about individual "are men raped by women" instances, focus on the systemic issue. Using points like this hurts victims and gives incels more ammo.

 

[martyrdom]

Respectfully, I don't think you know what you are talking about but point taken about coercion and sex trafficking being wrong. To the OP : DONT take my joke as literal advice! The sex workers in Thailand or Tijuana according to this person is 99.9% underage and trafficked. Find an escort that is doing her job voluntarily and above the age of consent.

Respectfully, I'm well researched on the topic and many of my friends have been prostitutes or former sex workers and I know what the industry is firsthand. I also come from a country in which a lot of women immigrate to the west and "voluntarily" become sex workers because they don't know the language, have no papers, and no other way to survive.

Find an escort that is doing her job voluntarily and above the age of consent.

The other problem with this, even if we accept the possibility that there is a sex worker somewhere out there who loves her job and always dreamed of doing it and is not traumatized by it and is consenting to each and every encounter because she is attracted to every single man who pays her and enjoys herself, there is absolutely never any way to know that this is the case. You can't know if she has a pimp, you can't know if she's being trafficked, you can't know what situation she's in and what options she has - all you'll see on the outside is customer service, it's advertising. It's not like they're going to tell you. If you can understand that the waiter at a restaurant who smiles and jokes and acts like the highest honor is to serve your food doesn't actually enjoy their job and doesn't mean all those things and needs to do them for the sake of customer service, you can apply that same logic to sex work. There is never any certain way to know whether any encounter is truly consensual and whether the sex worker is doing it out of her own free will with no coercion, trauma, debt, financial need, trafficking, etc.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

Do all Muslims have to rename their religion because a minority of them are terrorists? I mean, there are islamic terrorists who cite their religion as the reason for their actions... but the decent and intelligent among us recognize this is a majority. Or how about Christians? Catholics in particular must change their name of their religion because of the child molestation by priests, right? And white people... we can't be white people anymore because white people owned a lot of black slaves, so we need to change our name because of that sordid past. And men in general... since there are bad men who do bad things, the rest of us who don't do the bad things need a new name because we can't say "it's not all men" without starting a shitstorm.

Sorry, I'm giggling so hard at this. Yes, change the term "white people," sure totally comparable to incels, absolutely. (This is sarcasm)

 

[martyrdom]

I agree with most of your post, but I've literally met men who were gangraped by women.

Instead of talking about individual "are men raped by women" instances, focus on the systemic issue. Using points like this hurts victims and gives incels more ammo.

I've never in my life seen a cis man gang raped by cis women but gang rape of women is a systemic issue for women, and gang rape of men by women is an extremely serious issue just like any rape, but it's not a systemic issue, it's not a manifestation of an oppressive system orchestrated around the oppression of men by women on the basis of their sex. So it applies.

 

[ToANewWorld]

The other problem with this, even if we accept the possibility that there is a sex worker somewhere out there who loves her job and always dreamed of doing it and is not traumatized by it and is consenting to each and every encounter because she is attracted to every single man who pays her and enjoys herself, there is absolutely never any way to know that this is the case. You can't know if she has a pimp, you can't know if she's being trafficked, you can't know what situation she's in and what options she has - all you'll see on the outside is customer service, it's advertising. It's not like they're going to tell you. If you can understand that the waiter at a restaurant who smiles and jokes and acts like the highest honor is to serve your food doesn't actually enjoy their job and doesn't mean all those things and needs to do them for the sake of customer service, you can apply that same logic to sex work. There is never any certain way to know whether any encounter is truly consensual and whether the sex worker is doing it out of her own free will with no coercion, trauma, debt, financial need, trafficking, etc.

You mentioned in a separate part of your post that you "know many sex workers" I very much doubt you know a single sex worker. In fact I doubt your are even old enough to drink alcohol going by what you wrote above.

Anyways, you have some very strong and extreme opinions about this topic. But just know not everyone agrees with you or has the same point of view.

 

[martyrdom]

You mentioned in a separate part of your post that you "know many sex workers" I very much doubt you know a single sex worker. In fact I doubt your are even old enough to drink alcohol.

And you concluded this because I think sex work is exploitation? Which can obviously only come from a naive youthful view rather than life experience, because, as we all know, most sex workers are totally happy and do not have any traumatic experiences nor extremely high rates of PTSD? You just resorted to attacking and trying to discredit me because you have absolutely no way to disprove my argument.

Anyways, you have some very strong and extreme opinions about this topic. But just know not everyone agrees with you or has the same point of view.

World shattering revelation, I wish you'd told me to sit down beforehand.

 

[ToANewWorld]

And you concluded this because I think sex work is exploitation?

That was part of the reason but I've heard that opinion before. What made me realize you don't have a clue what you are talking about was your description of sex work and sex workers. It is too detached from reality to be coming from an adult, let alone someone that has ever interacted with a sex worker.

Nothing personal at all. I appreciate you sharing your opinion and this is obviously a topic you feel strongly about. But I urge you to research it more and keep an open mind. Even if you think you are 100% right, you would be suprised how many people disagree with your view, including sex workers btw.

 

[Abort!]

And you concluded this because I think sex work is exploitation? Which can obviously only come from a naive youthful view rather than life experience, because, as we all know, most sex workers are totally happy and do not have any traumatic experiences nor extremely high rates of PTSD? You just resorted to attacking and trying to discredit me because you have absolutely no way to disprove my argument.


World shattering revelation, I wish you'd told me to sit down beforehand.

So this is a little off topic, but what exactly is the solution for OOP? I'd love to hear your take. What do you believe people in his circumstances should do?

 

[martyrdom]

That was part of the reason but I've heard that opinion before. What made me realize you don't have a clue what you are talking about was your description of sex work and sex workers. It is too detached from reality to be coming from an adult, let alone someone that has ever interacted with a sex worker.

My brother, there is also the fact that you are probably from the west, and I am not. Sex work is not the same here as it is where you are, most likely, and the side of sex work I've been presented with (ie. from the perspective of a friend who they speak to openly) is also going to be extremely different from the side and perception a client gets (which you sound like you have been, correct me if I am wrong) because a client is getting customer service, they won't be open with most of you. If you want to talk about research, I can direct you to dozens and dozens of books, studies, memoirs and the like on the topic that share my point of view, many from sex workers themselves. Some extremely close friends of mine were sex workers for a very long time.

So this is a little off topic, but what exactly is the solution for OOP? I'd love to hear your take. What do you believe people in his circumstances should do?

I think they should stop identifying as incels, stop subscribing to the incel ideology ("bad genes" make you doomed and all women want the 1% chads and you'll be forever alone because no jawline), go outside more, make friends, get hobbies, touch grass, speak to real women to realize they are just regular human beings (and many with no standards, unfortunately), and read feminist literature.

 

[Alan James]

Then they wouldn't be incels... incel doesn't literally just mean a male virgin, it's a belief system that says "it's women's fault I can't have sex"

Blackpill incels say it's all down to bad genetics. That they simply lost the genetic lottery and that nothing can be done about it (after all, transhumanism, the technology for transferring consciousness into other bodies, doesn't exist).

 

[ToANewWorld]

My brother, there is also the fact that you are probably from the west, and I am not.

You are right I do live in the west. Many women here do choose sex work as a profession without being trafficked or violently beaten by thugs or the cartel. I am sorry this is the reality where you live, but this is not the norm in every country. Certainly not in first world countries.

 

[Abort!]

I think they should stop identifying as incels, stop subscribing to the incel ideology ("bad genes" make you doomed and all women want the 1% chads and you'll be forever alone because no jawline), go outside more, make friends, get hobbies, touch grass, speak to real women to realize they are just regular human beings (and many with no standards, unfortunately), and read feminist literature.

That reads to me like a dismissal of OOPS lived reality, even if you disagree with his inherent biases. Your critique doesn't address material constraints or mental health so much as it does caricturize and moralize him. Can you provide a more concrete step-by-step solution?

 

[martyrdom]

You are right I do live in the west and many women here do choose sex work as a profession without being trafficked or violently beaten by thugs or the cartel. I am sorry this is the reality where you live, but this is not the reality of every country. Certainly not in first world countries.

Trafficking doesn't always look like that. It's often very subtle. Some women don't even realize they're being trafficked, such as with the loverboy method. So it's more complex and not as obvious as you imagine. Many of the sex workers I know did it "voluntarily" but under conditions that included either grooming and coercion, or financial situations with no other recourse.

 

[ToANewWorld]

Trafficking doesn't always look like that. It's often very subtle. Some women don't ecen realize they're being trafficked, such as with the loverboy method. So it's more complex and not as obvious as you imagine. Many of the sex workers I know did it "voluntarily" but under conditions that included either grooming and coercion, or financial situations with no other recourse.

I think the fact we live in completely different countries is a big deal. It sounds like you live in a country with some serious sex crime problems.

I dont condone sex work if what that means in your country is human trafficking and slavery. At the same time, you shouldn't go around projecting your particular country's crime problem onto everyone and everywhere. Believe it or not sex work (with no cartel, beatings, thugs, liveleak CJGN, Los zetas, brazil jungle vids) is possible and exists. It happens everyday in countries that have electricity.

 

[martyrdom]

I think the fact we live in completely different countries is a big deal. It sounds like you live in a country with some serious sex crime problems.

I dont condone sex work if what that means in your country is human trafficking and slavery. At the same time, you shouldn't go around projecting your particular country's crime problem onto everyone and everywhere. Believe it or not sex work (with no cartel, beatings, thugs, liveleak CJGN, Los zetas, brazil jungle vids) is possible and exists. It happens everyday in countries that have electricity.

My country also has electricity, not sure what thats supposed to mean. But what I'm talking about is a worldwide phenomenon, the west isn't some utopia where women are never exploited or trafficked, that's just a fact you can easily Google.

 

[Alan James]

So it may have been an umbrella term in the 1990s or whenever but today the conventional definition is specific to men who hold a hostile attitude against women over sex.

Most incels, first of all, hate themselves, consider themselves genetically inferior untermensch, subhumans. They hate their body, their bad genetics. And this whole world in general often. They understand that it is not women who are to blame for the fact that they were born with a bad body.

 

[JustBe]

Logically I feel the best solution to bad genetics is suicide. I cannot change my body. I can't make myself tall, handsome, good looking, smart, etc. So I'll just kill myself, simple as is.

This is not totally true. While your genetics will be passed on if you get children one day, there are tons of surgeries that can make your life less problematic regarding your looks.
I'd even say it can become a goal in your life that could prevent your suicide. To work hard, to save money and to aim for surgeries. Let's say you aim for a total physical change involving surgeries, you'd have to save somewhat around $50k.
I tell you very honestly, if I thought my life struggles were all coming from a single thing, in your case "be ugly", I'd have a new goal in life and would go toward a realistic objective that within a decade, I'd have done all surgeries needed to be at least average looking if not more.
It's never too late, by the way, you can have surgeries at 45 and see your life change, just as you can have them at 25.
Either that or constantly struggling with how you look and eternal suffering. Your choice. But even with a minimum wage, I believe in a single year you can save enough for the cheapest surgery.
Good luck anyway, but I don't believe "being ugly" is enough of an argument to choose the easy way out. Fight. Fight for your life.

 

[artificialpasta]

Most incels, first of all, hate themselves, consider themselves genetically inferior untermensch, subhumans. They hate their body, their bad genetics. And this whole world in general often. They understand that it is not women who are to blame for the fact that they were born with a bad body.

Then I wouldn't call them incels, just pessimists or doomers. This is an issue of semantics, but when discussing a subject in public it's prudent to use its conventional definition. See the rest of the post you're quote-replying to.

 

[Alan James]

This is not totally true. While your genetics will be passed on if you get children one day, there are tons of surgeries that can make your life less problematic regarding your looks.
I'd even say it can become a goal in your life that could prevent your suicide. To work hard, to save money and to aim for surgeries. Let's say you aim for a total physical change involving surgeries, you'd have to save somewhat around $50k.
I tell you very honestly, if I thought my life struggles were all coming from a single thing, in your case "be ugly", I'd have a new goal in life and would go toward a realistic objective that within a decade, I'd have done all surgeries needed to be at least average looking if not more.
It's never too late, by the way, you can have surgeries at 45 and see your life change, just as you can have them at 25.
Either that or constantly struggling with how you look and eternal suffering. Your choice. But even with a minimum wage, I believe in a single year you can save enough for the cheapest surgery.
Good luck anyway, but I don't believe "being ugly" is enough of an argument to choose the easy way out. Fight. Fight for your life.

No operations, even if they all exist at once and no matter how much money you have (even if you are a billionaire), will not be able (at the moment) to transfer your consciousness from a severely genetically inferior body to a new beautiful tall body with high IQ. Plastic surgery can only correct various minor flaws, and not replace a completely crap body with a new beautiful one. No amount of surgery can turn a 160 cm tall person into a 2 meter tall person. They won't sew on a beautiful new head. The proportions of the body (skeleton) will not change.

Moreover, it is impossible to increase the IQ level, which depends on genetics (and he wrote that he doesn't like the fact that he has a low IQ too). The fact is that there is no way to change very bad genetics at all at the moment. After all, there is no transhumanism yet.

 

[ToANewWorld]

The west isn't some utopia where women are never exploited or trafficked

Of course, but your description of sex work and sex workers was so extreme and out of touch with sex work in first world countries you shouldn't present your view as the norm. Even if everything you said is precisely how it works on your part of the world.

 

[Alan James]

Then I wouldn't call them incels, just pessimists or doomers. This is an issue of semantics, but when discussing a subject in public it's prudent to use its conventional definition. See the rest of the post you're quote-replying to.

The generally accepted definition of "incels" is people who want to have sex, but cannot. They can't for any reason. All such people are those who hate someone/something or those who hate themselves or those who do not hate anyone. Yes, of course, many incels hate women and this whole world in general. But the meaning of the word "incel" is involuntary celibacy (either with or without hatred).

There are many types of incels, for example: blackpill incels, redpill, bluepill, whitepill and so on. Now the most widespread and popular type of incels are probably blackpill incels who blame genetics. There are also volcels - those who voluntarily give up sex and relationships.

 

[martyrdom]

Of course, but your description of sex work and sex workers was so extreme and out of touch with sex work in first world countries you shouldn't present your view as the norm. Even if everything you said is precisely how it works on your part of the world.

That's just willfully ignorant but if you're willing to change your view I can direct you to many resources about the reality of sex work in the west too.

Most incels, first of all, hate themselves, consider themselves genetically inferior untermensch, subhumans. They hate their body, their bad genetics. And this whole world in general often. They understand that it is not women who are to blame for the fact that they were born with a bad body.

To rank humans as untermensch and ubermensch in the first place is out of touch, hateful and dehumanizing even to those they consider "ubermensch". There is nothing redeeming about incels and no, they do very much blame women, this PR nonsense about incels is just that - nonsense, we all have seen how they are and what they do. You fundamentally are not a good person if you assign arbitrary value to human beings based on this weird eugenicist mentality and consider sex a commodity you are owed.