I know it sounds crazy but....

[amy joyce]

I'm not super religious and never was, but I'm more a believer now than I used to be. Although I haven't been a member of this forum very long, those who I've been in contact know that I lost my son to suicide last August. He was an agnostic or atheist. He was also my beloved son and I miss him dearly.

Even thought the Bible says "thou shall not kill" the actual translation is "thou shall not murder". So for purposes of this posting I am relating it to my son in the sense that I trust/know that despite he his killing himself, he could still go to heaven. However many people believe that we must also be believers in life and give ourselves over to God and repent before we die in order to get to heaven.

I've always been a do "my own thing" when it came to my faith. I was very open to others and am polite when it comes to others. I don't want to argue. But in no way do I believe my son would be denied heaven. However I am haunted with thoughts that he wouldn't have allowed himself the chance to go, being that he was an agnostic (his official stance since he said that if he saw Jesus he would believe).

I don't want to make a big production of this topic . And you can call me crazy if you want, but I sort of feel that I should die so I that can help my son find and meet Jesus in the spirit, kneel before Him, give himself over to God so he would then be able to get to heaven. My son was a wonderful young man. A deeply good person who wouldn't hurt anyone. He wouldn't even lie on a job application. Not even a simple lie to get a job. He also loved animals and never raised his voice or fought with people.

So part of my reason CTB is to be with him again because he's all alone in a different state of consciousness. And also to ensure that he meets with Jesus and knows it's alright and he would be accepted by Him and allowed into heaven. See, I don't really believe in hell. I just think it's the absence of God and our other loved ones outside of heave. That some of those spirits are lost and some are with Satan in a bad place, while others are just sort of in mediation waiting and working on their afterlife.

Just wondered if anyone ever has had thoughts like these at all??? I do have other reasons for ctb which I've been working on because I know that I don't really want to die. I just want to stop suffering physically and emotionally. But regarding the former, maybe I should speak to someone who thinks they know or actually does know more. Obviously they'll want to talk me out of dying which isn't what I want it to become about. I want the focus to be my son and heaven, etc.

 

[jackiebrown67]

You seem noble, thats a compliment. It's nice to have people around you that actually care. With all this technology that has been created, its a major wonder of mine of what is life like after death. Your words paint a kind picture.

 

[wine is fine but]

i would normally not try to influence anyone when it comes to death and religion because it is not my soul on the line if i am wrong, however, this situation is different as it relates to a different scenario than if the original poster should be afraid of hell or anything like that

my own personal point of view, is that if there is a god and also a heaven, then suicide or not believing would not stop someone from getting into heaven. there are many reasons why people may not believe, and it would be terribly unfair if a good person was denied entry, when a very bad person was allowed in, simply because they believed, but only when it suited them

as for the second part, if there is a god, then he is all seeing and all knowing. i seriously doubt that on judgement day, he will be looking for references from their loved ones. to me, it seems you may be trying to make up reasons to leave, which is probably not the right reason to take your life. i did not mean this to be critical in any way, and whatever reason you may choose is the right reason for you, but my opinion is that taking your own life will not have the desired effect that you would be hoping for. i will never be able to begin to understand how you feel, and if you choose to not die (there is a big difference between choosing to live, and choosing to not die), no doubt thoughts of your own demise will ebb and flow for a while yet. i hope you can find the strength to do whatever is right for you when they do

 

[Forever Sleep]

It's an understandable hope- when we miss someone so deeply- to hope we will see them again. My Dad hopes he will see my Mum again when he passes over. (She died 43 years ago.)

I was raised to believe there is a heaven. I also had a family member who believed suicides go to some sort of purgatory level- between heaven and hell. If you've ever seen: 'What Dreams May Come'- that basically. So- I can understand your perspective.

Truthfully, I'm hoping there will be nothing after this. I'm even slightly worried that my dead parents- once they are both passed on will pull my soul into that new reality. Seeing as they've already done it once here. When- all I want to do is rest and be free of consciousness. So- there is also the issue of what the individual person wants.

I suppose ultimately though, I just feel like none of us know what happens next. So- it's a gamble- ultimately- if there is anything and, whether we will all end up in the same place.

From earlier posts, I think you mentioned having another son. I can't claim to know how devastated you must be feeling over the loss of your son and, it's understandable you would want to help him. I suppose it does feel like you would be abandoning a known reality and the son that is alive, for a hope you might reunite and assist the other son though.

Even if you feel like your living son doesn't need you, I imagine the loss of his brother and then his mother- would likely affect him badly. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh or cruel. I suppose though, it just makes more sense to me- to act on what we know is real.

I suppose personally speaking, I think it would be cruel for a God to punish suicides. But then- looking at how this world was created to begin with- I tend to worry that if there is in fact a God behind it- they may indeed be cruel. I suppose that's also why I really hope there is nothing- personally. Sorry- I'm sure other people with more faith may have more comforting things to say but, those are my concerns.

 

[amy joyce]

Your words paint a kind picture.

Thank you. There are many nice people on this site. I believe some of the most popular ones are filled with paid trolls, etc.

i would normally not try to influence anyone when it comes to death and religion because it is not my soul on the line if i am wrong, however, this situation is different as it relates to a different scenario than if the original poster should be afraid of hell or anything like that

my own personal point of view, is that if there is a god and also a heaven, then suicide or not believing would not stop someone from getting into heaven. there are many reasons why people may not believe, and it would be terribly unfair if a good person was denied entry, when a very bad person was allowed in, simply because they believed, but only when it suited them

as for the second part, if there is a god, then he is all seeing and all knowing. i seriously doubt that on judgement day, he will be looking for references from their loved ones. to me, it seems you may be trying to make up reasons to leave, which is probably not the right reason to take your life. i did not mean this to be critical in any way, and whatever reason you may choose is the right reason for you, but my opinion is that taking your own life will not have the desired effect that you would be hoping for. i will never be able to begin to understand how you feel, and if you choose to not die (there is a big difference between choosing to live, and choosing to not die), no doubt thoughts of your own demise will ebb and flow for a while yet. i hope you can find the strength to do whatever is right for you when they do

Your pov is as relevant as anyone else's but for the many people who use the Bible as their guide what you say won't make sense to them. I look for ways the Bible to make sense to me. So for now I've discarded some scary and seemingly non relevant books from the OT which are also unloving. So right now I concentrate on the main gospels about Jesus' ministry where we learn what's needed to get into heaven however it's a little vague. Beyond believing it doesn't say. Perhaps it sounds like a rationalization but I don't need another excuse to ctb. Here I know my other son is doing well and in good hands. I'm not sure about Sean yet and I'd like to be. Maybe I think too much and should pray or talk to others more. But there can be a real danger here and I don't want to screw this up when I know I made mistakes in the last couple of weeks in his life. If you knew what I said and the the conditions you'd get it.

I believe I've come a long way since joining this site and I was surprised the direction I went. If I wasn't so darn tired all the time I'd at least have my plans for the future finalized and prepped for (meaning put away safely for when/if it's needed).

I imagine the loss of his brother and then his mother- would likely affect him badly.

There's no doubt anymore. Same with my husband. And I mentioned it before: I've been told by friends and family and therapist and psychiatrist the same things and it didn't hit me the same as when I was told that here. It might even have just been a nudge in that direction, I can't remember exactly anymore. Suddenly I felt how I must be as important to them as they are to me. Even though we have different relationships, the amount of love is the same. So that's a big part of why I had changed my mind about doing it now. I'm not for sure but still going to follow through with the research and getting what I need to ctb for the future. Just bc I feel that I'll eventually go out that way. I may be 80 but regardless I don't believe in suffering. I already feel sick like something more is wrong than I already know but they can't figure it out.

This doesn't solve my dilemma about helping Sean find Glory but now that I've thought more about it, I think that picture is ethereal. I know he wasn't quite ready yet and hadn't made up his mind when it was taken but it sure looks to me like God was waiting in some way. If that's the truth or I can dind solace in that then I won't feel the need to go help him. Souls as little as babies find their way. I'm beginning to feel the mind warp. If they can find there way, he should be able to.

 

[amy joyce]

I suppose that's also why I really hope there is nothing- personally. Sorry- I'm sure other people with more faith may have more comforting things to say but, those are my concerns.

Perhaps I watched too much of The Brady Bunch in my youth, but I've never thought of it that way.
Looking back, the Bible tells the story of Satan casting its spell on Eve who convinced Adam to eat the forbidden fruit thus ruining paradise for all people, making us live in sin and become vain etc. You can say that was actually God (if you believe it) and others will it was the devil. You'd think if God was all powerful and all loving that he'd of let that mistake go and overpowered Satan then. God gave us free will and made us curious. Anyway that's one of the many stories I don't believe anyway. The OT has so many different kinds of books in it and if we compare it to the NT most of the time it seems like a different God altogether. That's the only more comforting part to say Imo, unless we conclude God is different altogether. However I thrive on believing I get to see my loved ones again. My son went way too soon. It won't be the same as enjoying more life with him unless it's truly a glorious place.

If you're going to choose to believe something, why can't it be that instead of nothing. That doesn't give people much hope.

 

[wine is fine but]

Your pov is as relevant as anyone else's but for the many people who use the Bible as their guide what you say won't make sense to them. I look for ways the Bible to make sense to me. So for now I've discarded some scary and seemingly non relevant books from the OT which are also unloving. So right now I concentrate on the main gospels about Jesus' ministry where we learn what's needed to get into heaven however it's a little vague. Beyond believing it doesn't say

it is true that those who read the bible will not make sense of what i posted, but everything about the bible is interpretations, from the verses themselves to what people get out of it. it seems to not be a story as such, but a way to find comfort, peace and faith. perhaps sean said a prayer just before he left, and even to the "letter of the law", he may have been accepted. but i still feel that a lot of the bible was written in a totally different time, so the "rules" may have been relaxed a little, but as you say, beyond believing it doesn't say. it would seem without a doubt, that to invite jesus into your life just before death would be enough to gain entrance into the kingdom of heaven. no spin or interpretation is needed in that respect, so perhaps sean has already been welcomed in with open arms

I'm not sure about Sean yet and I'd like to be. Maybe I think too much and should pray or talk to others more. But there can be a real danger here and I don't want to screw this up when I know I made mistakes in the last couple of weeks in his life. If you knew what I said and the the conditions you'd get it

maybe all you need to know sean is alright is to have faith
thinking too much is normal for many of us here. i particularly think too much when i shouldn't and not enough when i should. thinking too much can only overwhelm you in this situation and may also ensure you remain sad all of the time
you did mention what you said and the conditions. perhaps you watered it down, but perhaps the more likely scenario is that you are making yourself feel guilty for nothing. every parent raises their voice and says some stuff they wish they could take back. this is life, it ain't leave it to beaver or the brady bunch. i said it before, but no one is going to wait 2 weeks after being triggered to take their own life. you said that you both helped each other to cope, so it seems obvious that he loved you. from the way you described him, there is no way that he would have done what he did if you were the trigger. he would know just how much you would blame yourself. i wish you could understand what i am saying. actually i think you can probably understand, i wish you could somehow believe it, because it is almost certainly true and you do not need any more pain. you already have more than enough

 

[Raindancer]

I am so sorry for your loss. I am a Christian which is one of the reasons I am still here. I do believe people who CTB can still go to Heaven. Catholics believe it's a mortal sin, but as a born again Christian, I believe Christ died for ALL my sins. We don't know what happens in a persons last minutes. When Jesus was on the cross, In Luke 23:43 Christ says to the thief on the cross"Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise" And Romans 8:34 says"Christ Jesus is the one who died, but even more so has been raised; he is also at the right hand of God and intercedes for us." Satan is the big accuser and Jesus pleads our case for us. I will pray for peace and discernment as you struggle with this decision.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Perhaps I watched too much of The Brady Bunch in my youth, but I've never thought of it that way.
Looking back, the Bible tells the story of Satan casting its spell on Eve who convinced Adam to eat the forbidden fruit thus ruining paradise for all people, making us live in sin and become vain etc. You can say that was actually God (if you believe it) and others will it was the devil. You'd think if God was all powerful and all loving that he'd of let that mistake go and overpowered Satan then. God gave us free will and made us curious. Anyway that's one of the many stories I don't believe anyway. The OT has so many different kinds of books in it and if we compare it to the NT most of the time it seems like a different God altogether. That's the only more comforting part to say Imo, unless we conclude God is different altogether. However I thrive on believing I get to see my loved ones again. My son went way too soon. It won't be the same as enjoying more life with him unless it's truly a glorious place.

If you're going to choose to believe something, why can't it be that instead of nothing. That doesn't give people much hope.

A friend once described in a book she read- I think by Terry Pratchett- that each person's afterlife was whatever they believed. I like that idea the most really. Like a tailor made afterlife to suit the individual. I truly hope everyone does get the afterlife they are hoping for. I hope you get to see your son again. I hope my Dad reunites with my Mum eventually.

 

[amy joyce]

I am so sorry for your loss. I am a Christian which is one of the reasons I am still here. I do believe people who CTB can still go to Heaven. Catholics believe it's a mortal sin, but as a born again Christian, I believe Christ died for ALL my sins. We don't know what happens in a persons last minutes. When Jesus was on the cross, In Luke 23:43 Christ says to the thief on the cross"Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise" And Romans 8:34 says"Christ Jesus is the one who died, but even more so has been raised; he is also at the right hand of God and intercedes for us." Satan is the big accuser and Jesus pleads our case for us. I will pray for peace and discernment as you struggle with this decision.

From what I understand, Catholics have changed their position on suicide's going to heaven. A true man's "religion" that has changed their minds on many positions over times. As have Jews of certain denominations that I have no clue about except one. I agree that born again Christian's like most other believe that those who ctb still go to heaven. However when I asked an online evangelical youtube channel about this, he made a video about his response to me. It was that ctb doesn't keep us from heaven (which many in the chat disagreed with because they said it is "killing") but it is because Sean was agnostic that he wouldn't go to heaven (implying I wasn't a good enough parent to ensure his beliefs; which is partly true, I didn't). I followed the channel regularly but haven't been back and argue against fervently against that belief as a rule.

You're very kind and I thank you for your prayers. I do believe Satan gets his grips onto "us" and uses people against one another for his sake, as the big deceiver... I believe the thief on the cross gave himself to Christ, which is often interpreted as why Jesus said he would be in Paradise with him (how it leaves me chilled that a thief would be crucified??). I turn a lot to John 14 and 16 in my belief that our soul's have the opportunity to choose the Holy Spirit after death in their transitioning state of consciousness. Jesus never said it had to be while we were alive and more than once He spoke of the world would not understands the things he says but his apostles would (eventually). Even at the time they did not, however. So how odd it would be that some of the men who walked and talked with JC while he was alive didn't understand Him at the time, as they stood before him but Jesus would expect us as believers or contemplating to believe and choose him 2000 years later. It's too nonsensical for me to wrap my head around. I know the Bible is confusing at times but in my mind it can mean nothing else but that our souls leave the body with the ability to contemplate its existence and understand other souls around him to be good, bad or indifferent in terms of their choosing who to spend eternity with.

A friend once described in a book she read- I think by Terry Pratchett- that each person's afterlife was whatever they believed. I like that idea the most really. Like a tailor made afterlife to suit the individual. I truly hope everyone does get the afterlife they are hoping for. I hope you get to see your son again. I hope my Dad reunites with my Mum eventually.

I'll have to read about that. I wonder if it was serious or if a story was based off of the idea. Either way it'd make a good one.

you did mention what you said and the conditions. perhaps you watered it down, but perhaps the more likely scenario is that you are making yourself feel guilty for nothing. every parent raises their voice and says some stuff they wish they could take back. this is life, it ain't leave it to beaver or the brady bunch. i said it before, but no one is going to wait 2 weeks after being triggered to take their own life. you said that you both helped each other to cope, so it seems obvious that he loved you. from the way you described him, there is no way that he would have done what he did if you were the trigger. he would know just how much you would blame yourself. i wish you could understand what i am saying. actually i think you can probably understand, i wish you could somehow believe it, because it is almost certainly true and you do not need any more pain. you already have more than enough

What my son was thinking about those last couple hours I'll never know while alive. But I think in my worst (since I know he left the railing for several minutes toward the end and then rushed back and jumped right away) that he had been waiting for me or someone to miss and reach out to him, but we didn't. I know it's crazy to have such notions and believe I can know what he was thinking but maybe that's why my selfish thought would have been. Then again I'm quite sure he made his decision at least two days prior because he didn't make his usual plans for that night and claimed his best friend had other plans. But when I asked him afterwards, his best friend said that on Wednesday Sean told him that he wouldn't be able to make it (other plans). I guess he just needed to leave for a minute and do it quickly... But it's been 10 months and I think we should be getting access to his phone sometime soon. I'm hopeful to find some answers from it. I have a clue in that before Sean was even buried my brother called and suggested I don't look at Sean's phone because "guys say things their Mom's wouldn't like while playing games" and I don't believe for ONE SECOND that is the reason he didn't/doesn't want me to look at his phone.

I have three older brothers and that's it. That one is youngest of them, two years older, and he's the one I didn't want Sean to go live with and who I've recently become estranged from. Him and his wife doing horrible things to me. Both crazy narcissists. He called me about 3 weeks before Sean died and wanted to talk about Sean's secret with me but what he was really doing was fishing to find out if I knew the secret. Remember when I mentioned that? In one of our many lil chats about this. This is what makes it so complicated for me. Why I was screaming how I was going to kill my brother when the detectives came and told me what happened. Because they are so awful.... Of course when I told him I didn't know the secret, he refused to tell me. So he was basically tormenting me by letting me know that he knew and I didn't. And it wasn't something he figured out, it was something Sean told him. Then which was classic brother and his wife, they tag teamed me. When she took me to the doctor she started to ask questions and question me about Sean's sex life, trying to indicate he was homosexual. We all knew that wasn't true, that he had girlfriends, but also that if he had same sex attraction it wasn't a big deal. But they are so awful they would have tried to either get him to believe it was or get him to believe I thought it was.... It's so confusing and hard to explain. You have to known their personalities and desire to control people and hurt me, and get Sean to be mad at me and choose them (who couldn't have children) over me...... By that time years had gone by that I first learned of a secret Sean had. He told me himself that he had one but he didn't want to tell me himself. He wanted me to guess but I couldn't.... I didn't know if that is/was what was so upsetting for him and causing the SI or if it was maybe just part of it and really tried to guess and get him to tell me, but he wouldn't. Finally I gave up because he stopped mentioning it and I thought he should have his privacy without me bugging him about it...... But those years later it really got to me that Sean told my brother and his wife but not me, and that they were playing games with me about it. Also hurting Sean about it in the en Such cruel people. Anyway, after the funeral my brother and I had it out again. It could have been one of a dozen things in our past. I refused to talk/talk with him because he'd yell etc and drown me out so I wrote him an email after our phone talk and told him I knew the secret. That I discovered since Sean had passed away and that my brother was horrible for what he did by keeping it from me, after telling me that he knew...... But I didn't/don't know, I was messing with him how me did me. But I believe the answer will be on his phone. And regardless of what it was, it was horrible what bro did to me by bringing the topic up again and having it haunt me as I had found peace about it and so had Sean, apparently. Because we had a talk and I told Sean everything that my bro and sis n law said to me. Sean still wouldn't tell me the secret but did say that he wasn't homosexual and also knew that I wouldn't mind either way if he was and he knew my bro/his wife were essentially being assholes and causing trouble... Gosh I feel like I totally botched this explanation. I just wish that I never allowed them to get to me (before and after) or that I told Sean everything they did. I just know how much I loathe them and wanted Sean to see that regardless of what they said, deep down they'd betray anyone and use them for their own amusement or whatever..... Sean was very tech savvy so he probably would have deleted all messages but maybe not. I still think that if it doesn't hold the answers I'm looking for that I'll at least find some clues... If you don't understand everything or some of it, feel free to ask if you're interested or think it will help me.

 

[Forever Sleep]

but it is because Sean was agnostic that he wouldn't go to heaven (implying I wasn't a good enough parent to ensure his beliefs; which is partly true, I didn't).

I've always hated this about religion. The very best, kindest people I knew on this earth were all atheists. In terms of how they behaved towards their fellow humans. In terms of their own peaceful beliefs and attitudes- they were far more 'Christian' in attitude than many regular church going people I have come across.

If God prefers the company of the likely hundreds of paeodophile priests 'he' had representing 'him'. If he prefers so- called 'repentent' murderes, rapists and thieves- over some of the best people I've ever had the privelage to know- simply because they didn't kiss his arse - I don't think that says all that much about God's character. I've always feared God may be a narcissistic sadist. So personally- I feel sure I'll be going to hell if there is one- because God must realise I actually hate them.

Personally- I would say you were a good parent in not forcing your son into a belief system he had decided against. Even if you had insisted he still maintained religious activities- he may well have rejected them in the future. Especially if they had been forced on him.

I do have such a negative view of God- obviously. I suppose I just can't suspend what I see as the reality of this world. How this world was created. All the unavoidable suffering written into the very design if it. So- my personal hope is that there isn't a God or afterlife. I suppose I'm tired of other forces dictating my life. That said, if religion is a source of strength and reassurance for other people- I'm happy for them.

I loved this interaction between Pope Francis and a young boy grieving the loss of his (atheist) father:



I think- if a Pope believes an atheist that is a good person can still get in to heaven- that has to trump some fanatic on the internet- so, I hope you can ignore that guy.

 

[amy joyce]

I think- if a Pope believes an atheist that is a good person can still get in to heaven- that has to trump some fanatic on the internet- so, I hope you can ignore that guy.

If God prefers the company of the likely hundreds of paeodophile priests 'he' had representing 'him'. If he prefers so- called 'repentent' murderes, rapists and thieves- over some of the best people I've ever had the privelage to know- simply because they didn't kiss his arse - I don't think that says all that much about God's character. I've always feared God may be a narcissistic sadist. So personally- I feel sure I'll be going to hell if there is one- because God must realise I actually hate them.

Some of what you said to me was what shaped my views about faith (not religion, because to me that's man made for people to follow).

My husband and I were both raised Catholic and we baptized our sons. However when it came time for school, religious c.asses etc. we disagreed. And this is where it becomes weird. Husband no longer believed but I did have faith however he wanted to raise them Catholic while I wanted them to grow up and decide for themselves. Now I can say that although you commend me for allowing my son to choose, I regret the course I took. Part of it was because of faith but I strongly believe that if I raised them Catholic and sent them to school, they'd of turned out better and Sean would be alive. Not because of the religion as much as the discipline and sense of belonging in a cultural sense that we all missed because of our choices.

Yes some of the evangelical Christians are very strict while the Pope is actually more liberal now. They church has changed a lot even since I was a young student. Back then in the old neighborhood if you paid for one child for private school the church would pay for the rest. Since that has stopped and probably bc of even more, the schools are closing and churches are losing parishioners. It's kind of scary to me for reasons I won't go into; just another can of beans.

About the horrors of this world, the cruel people and God. Perhaps your "hope" about the afterlife stems more regarding your beliefs now, because if your thoughts about how life and the after life worked was different your hopes my change to. I know it's odd I'm speaking in a riddle about something that probable doesn't matter in the slightest because it's about hope/belief of one person. But maybe I just feel like it be better if you did believe there was comfort afterwards..... Anyway, like how you couldn't accept it I was similar but I couldn't deny that I had beliefs and some faith to a certain extent all of my life. It was all shaped by what I already believed and what made sense to me with philosophical notions regarding what the world was about. So I concluded that life had to be a certain way, of chance without God's interference but with perhaps that of Satan's. This would be so impractical if we could call on God to step in and save us and make everything bright, especially since we know that's not how it works. We are left to the mechanisms of chance in a world where morality stems more from power and what many can get away with as opposed to deep spiritual insights and the after life. And obviously the ranges between good and evil also stem from mental status and what we've been "blessed" with along with bad luck for horrible circumstances. And then historically how the world was before modernization and invention etc. sort of helped shaped our morality. So like you I don't believe horrible people can spend life eternal with blessings from the Lord unless they were actually repented and changed in a deep seeded way, such as Paul from the NT (who I'm sort of on the fence about).

*I'd love to continue and finish my thoughts but doubt I can do so now and actually make sense. Not feeling the best :( But I do want to tell you that I really loved the video, before I go..... Thank you.

 

[wine is fine but]

What my son was thinking about those last couple hours I'll never know while alive. But I think in my worst (since I know he left the railing for several minutes toward the end and then rushed back and jumped right away) that he had been waiting for me or someone to miss and reach out to him, but we didn't. I know it's crazy to have such notions and believe I can know what he was thinking but maybe that's why my selfish thought would have been

you may never know what he was thinking even when not alive anymore
i would think that his actions were probably normal. jumping would take a huge amount of courage. sean was so brave to do what he did. i would think that the ratio of people who jump straight away or wait while contemplating for an amount of time is probably much higher with the latter option. sadly, knowing that he desperately wanted to take his life, or that he desperately wanted to be saved will almost certainly not change your level of devastation. once something is done, we tend to go through every possible scenario in our heads, and try like crazy to find some comfort in our grief, but when your grief is already well above 100%, neither of those options will probably help you. there are pluses, but more importantly so many negatives with both options

Then again I'm quite sure he made his decision at least two days prior because he didn't make his usual plans for that night and claimed his best friend had other plans. But when I asked him afterwards, his best friend said that on Wednesday Sean told him that he wouldn't be able to make it (other plans). I guess he just needed to leave for a minute and do it quickly...

to me it seems that way. probably even more than two days prior, but once again, that information is probably going to give you grief in another way than what you are feeling. there is no way to win when the human mind replays tragedies looking to find answers. just like, i, and others here are trying so hard to choose our words carefully, because there is almost nothing at all that we can say to make you feel better, but if we do post the wrong thing, it could somehow make everything worse, which is something none of us want to do

But it's been 10 months and I think we should be getting access to his phone sometime soon. I'm hopeful to find some answers from it. I have a clue in that before Sean was even buried my brother called and suggested I don't look at Sean's phone because "guys say things their Mom's wouldn't like while playing games" and I don't believe for ONE SECOND that is the reason he didn't/doesn't want me to look at his phone.

Sean was very tech savvy so he probably would have deleted all messages but maybe not. I still think that if it doesn't hold the answers I'm looking for that I'll at least find some clues

i hope that if you do get some answers soon, that it helps, but it may not. perhaps the way your brother acted, gives a very good idea that there might be something to find, but he might just be playing games too. i hope if there is something definitive on his phone, that you can see it in the best way to help you, and not over think it too much. there are many things in life, and sadly your situation is one of them, where we try and make sense of something when there is no sense to be found. we can over think too many things, which allows us to come up with scenarios in our minds, that even if partly true, do not really help in the way we would like them too. our minds when in your situation will always stray to the negative side, over the positive side. it is just natural, if nothing else, because we subconsciously feel that we should have some guilt, when in reality no guilt should be felt. it is almost like survivor's guilt in a way. we can only ever see things from our own point of view at any given time, but when tragedy or other negative things strike, we torture ourselves over analyzing every little piece of information, when in reality, those things probably never crossed the minds of those involved
hopefully the people looking through the phone do know what they are doing, because nothing is every fully removed from a device. it can be very difficult, but cops and every one who knows what they are doing can retrieve information that the user thought they had deleted. it seems that pictures, and i believe texts, once deleted are not whole items anymore, but broken down into pixels (for want of a better word) that can be painstakingly pieced back together

In one of our many lil chats about this. This is what makes it so complicated for me. Why I was screaming how I was going to kill my brother when the detectives came and told me what happened. Because they are so awful.... Of course when I told him I didn't know the secret, he refused to tell me. So he was basically tormenting me by letting me know that he knew and I didn't. And it wasn't something he figured out, it was something Sean told him. Then which was classic brother and his wife, they tag teamed me

you seem to be fixated on your brother and his wife - i understand that because of the tragedy you have been dealt, and also because i myself never let anything go. my own personal belief is you cannot be 100% loyal, if you cannot hold a 100% grudge, so i do understand why this topic is so important to you. but; both of them are arseholes. they do not deserve one second of your time. perhaps they are laughing at you because they feel they are living rent free in your head. please try to not give them any reason for satisfaction, even if they are unaware of what they are still doing to you. we need to pick our fights carefully, and only the ones we can win. much easier said than done, especially in your situation, but any thoughts you have of them are not going to help you at all. they will just continue to torture you

And it wasn't something he figured out, it was something Sean told him

it may have been something that his uncle had gone close to figuring out, and sean then finished the story
they may have had a drink or two, and it came out as effectively drunk talk
they may have been playing truth or dare
he may have gone to see a hooker and boasted about it
he may have had a date with rosy palm behind your shed and the cat saw him - who knows
probably, whatever the secret was, it was just talk between two guys. i am sure you (like everyone has at some time) told a secret to a girlfriend that you have not ever told to peter, sean or nick. the secret may not be that sinister, just something of mild embarrassment
obviously, our mums are girls, and some things we only say amongst our own gender, which means boys will have some things they do not share with their mums, but they are so insignificant, they aren't really even secrets - but a malicious person like your brother can then play games with you to build it into something it wasn't
another very important part, is that boys especially, but pretty much everyone, have one rule in life - do not disappoint your mum. if sean thought it might disappoint you, he was not going to tell you - that is just a fact. the only person in our lives we need to impress outside of ourselves, is our mum, and boys take that very seriously - please believe that, because it is 100% true

But I believe the answer will be on his phone

if it can bring you solace, then i hope it is, but you will probably find that this big secret is not really anything at all. you have probably made a mountain out of a molehill, which is totally understandable, but once again, fixating on it, can only bring you pain

Gosh I feel like I totally botched this explanation

i think i got what you were saying. not the first time i read it, but this morning it was clearer - but i have adhd and once i have got passed the first two lines, i am suddenly thinking about an imaginary dog with a lampshade on it's head, that is chasing a polar bear, three towns over, all while making up answers to questions you never asked

I just wish that I never allowed them to get to me (before and after) or that I told Sean everything they did. I just know how much I loathe them and wanted Sean to see that regardless of what they said, deep down they'd betray anyone and use them for their own amusement or whatever

they have already got to you, but now you can start to try and make sure they do not get to you again. like everything, it might take some time, but hopefully you will be able to remove them from your thoughts. thinking about them seems to be very toxic for you, so without blocking them from your mind, you will not have a chance to heal the way you truly deserve to

you told sean what you did, because you believed it was the right thing to do at the time. that is what parents do. i do not know even you, let alone sean but i honestly believe that nothing that was said in the two weeks leading up to august 8th, had anything to do with his decision. i do not know how your attempts came about all of those years ago, but if it was on a whim, and 100% on the spur of the moment (obviously, the second one wasn't), then you would be one of the tiny percentage of people who did. there is no way for you to win in this situation, but please believe me when i say there was almost certainly nothing you could have done to stop it and you would not have been responsible in any way for it

the reason i keep harping on about it, is because i truly believe that if your's and my roles were reversed, almost the exact same things would still be getting said - just by the other person. i do not know if i could take my own advice if i was in your situation, and you would probably be telling me the stuff you know is true but sadly, cannot accept in your situation




i cannot find it at the moment - that pesky adhd thing again - but you did mention a shrine to sean and going the cemetery in a post. i thought it was in this one or the last one i replied to in your original thread, but today i cannot find it
i understand the idea of a shrine and going to visit him daily and probably would myself, but if your entire house is a total reminder to him, then you cannot heal
may i suggest something please - i am not in the mental health field in any way, so this is not professional advice
this will be very difficult, i know, but maybe start small and hopefully it can grow
perhaps try (and it will probably take all of your strength to do it) to set aside an hour or so each day to do something you liked to do before august last year, or just anything to give yourself a bit of enjoyment, and hopefully a smile or two at some point
try to keep your mind 100% occupied in what you are doing in that time, so you do not think of sean
once that hour (or maybe just 5 or 10 minutes at first) is over, then let your thoughts go back to sean as they normally would
my idea is that maybe, you could end up spending, let's say 23 hours of each day in a less devasted state, and then dedicate the other hour to sean and let all of the pent up stress out in that hour - you could possibly cry 24 hours worth of tears in 1 hour. if this is even possible to do, then you could still have a way to enjoy your life to some extent, while still having him right inside your heart. every single second you can smile is a bonus. you deserve to have joy in your life, so perhaps if you could organise your day in this type of way, you might be able to smile again, while still holding sean so close to your heart. i am positive that sean would want you, as well as peter and nick too to be happy. it may seem impossible, but the 3 of you deserve it - you truly do

 

[floatingair]

I'll give you my opinion that I am completely confident of with 100% direct experience:

Jesus doesn't exist, in the sense that he is "God" and died for your sins, and if you don't believe in him and ask for forgiveness, you will be eternally tortured. That is incorrect. Why would a God knowingly create people knowing they would choose "self-chosen separation from him" in an eternal torture solely for not finding sufficient evidence for his existence? A truly understanding God would understand the human perspective. His love would be unconditional. A God's mercy would be so great that he would never think to respond to a misdeed against him by infinite vengeance.

You are not the body. You are consciousness. You are awareness. You are GOD himself, in human form, having a human experience. God split himself into infinite pieces, and one of those is your consciousness. He experiences infinite realities from infinite points of views -- there are infinite realities beyond this reality. Your consciousness is in the driving seat of each of them -- you may not know it, but everyone you meet is also your consciousness, experiencing from another perspective. The greatest love is unconditional love for another, because they are also you.

Don't have any fear, enjoy life. You will always do what you want in the end. The consciousness doesn't fear suffering, only the ego (body) does. All experience is self-chosen, you are choosing every single one of your experiences.

If you want to directly experience it, take psychedelics (mushrooms or lsd) and meditate.

 

[Serena 2026]

I've always hated this about religion. The very best, kindest people I knew on this earth were all atheists. In terms of how they behaved towards their fellow humans. In terms of their own peaceful beliefs and attitudes- they were far more 'Christian' in attitude than many regular church going people I have come across.

If God prefers the company of the likely hundreds of paeodophile priests 'he' had representing 'him'. If he prefers so- called 'repentent' murderes, rapists and thieves- over some of the best people I've ever had the privelage to know- simply because they didn't kiss his arse - I don't think that says all that much about God's character. I've always feared God may be a narcissistic sadist. So personally- I feel sure I'll be going to hell if there is one- because God must realise I actually hate them.

Personally- I would say you were a good parent in not forcing your son into a belief system he had decided against. Even if you had insisted he still maintained religious activities- he may well have rejected them in the future. Especially if they had been forced on him.

I do have such a negative view of God- obviously. I suppose I just can't suspend what I see as the reality of this world. How this world was created. All the unavoidable suffering written into the very design if it. So- my personal hope is that there isn't a God or afterlife. I suppose I'm tired of other forces dictating my life. That said, if religion is a source of strength and reassurance for other people- I'm happy for them.

I loved this interaction between Pope Francis and a young boy grieving the loss of his (atheist) father:



I think- if a Pope believes an atheist that is a good person can still get in to heaven- that has to trump some fanatic on the internet- so, I hope you can ignore that guy.

I share your views... everything I see in this horrible world we live in cannot possibly be governed by a God... a "Father" who lets defenseless little children die in wars or of starvation, women get raped, people kill each other for money and power, people get murdered for their sexual orientation, and so on... so many evangelical churches have collapsed, killing their own congregants; so many epidemics and diseases—what kind of cruel "Father" is that? None at all... because He doesn't exist—that's what I believe. And mind you, I used to be a card-carrying Spiritist; today I'm a realist, though I also respect those who have faith!!

 

[StarryEyed]

Hi AmyJoyce and others.

Just a few thoughts.

If you believe in God, maybe you can believe that he's got it covered in Heaven and since that's his area of expertise and since it's his final judgement, your voice can play absolutely no part in God's judgement. So your trip just to help Sean is of no use.

My life has been jam packed with suffering, and the OT Book of Job really helps me explain that we can't judge our suffering or God or the world. There's a really brilliant 10-minute video on the Book of Job on YouTube by the Bible Project Channel. It is so incredibly helpful for me. Maybe you or someone else can also find it useful? Here it is ..



Another thing you might find helpful is a beautiful book about God's judgement called "Good Goats", which is a case for all of us being God's children. I read it about 20 years ago and have recently found it again, thinking of reading it again. Maybe we can read it together? Here it is...

https://www.amazon.com/Good-Goats-Healing-Our-Image/dp/0809134632

P.S. I struggle with suicidal thinking too, for about 30 years now. Pretty much every day.

 

[amy joyce]

everything I see in this horrible world we live in cannot possibly be governed by a God... a "Father" who lets defenseless little

I understand what you mean in a way but want to clarify a few things. The world isn't just horrible. It's also wonderful and beautiful. It can be both at the same time depending on what you're looking at or just one if we're particularly grief stricken at a particular time or experiencing. My belief is that God who "governs" us doesn't control what we do or what happens to us. He doesn't want us to live this way or to suffer, why which is why we're instructed to live by certain commandments.

a "Father" who lets defenseless little children die in wars or of starvation, women get raped, people kill each other for money and power, people get murdered for their sexual orientation, and so on

Those who commit those awful offenses aren't children of God, living by his word and that of a Father who loves them. God is very angry with them. I'm sure you're familiar with the seven deadly sins. We are warned what will happen if we partake in those acts.

what kind of cruel "Father" is that?

He's a Father who allows us to choose. What kind of life would it be if we were robots? We can choose to be good or bad, but among us are powers who will help defend us from people who don't live righteously, whether they believe or not.

None at all... because He doesn't exist—that's what I believe.

I'm not the kind of person that tries to persuade people to believe differently. We have a choice and you have access to the same literature as I do. However I would encourage more of an attempt to try and understand more completely. A strong philosophical approach may be more helpful then trying to examine it from a spiritual angle.

Another thing you might find helpful is a beautiful book about God's judgement called "Good Goats", which is a case for all of us being God's children. I read it about 20 years ago and have recently found it again, thinking of reading it again. Maybe we can read it together?

I just bought it from Amazon. It should be here early July but FYI I'm a slow reader. If I'm lucky I'll get through two pages a night, lol.

the OT Book of Job really helps me explain that we can't judge our suffering or God or the world.

I'll start with this and maybe find the video. The link is not working for me. Lately the Bible hasn't been kind to me. I tried to work on anger and forgiveness by reading Jonah but got nothing from it. I admit to be more of a Jesus freak though. The OT just freaks me out some times.

maybe you can believe that he's got it covered in Heaven

I should be able to give it to God but I worry to much. It's like I want to know for sure and do everything I can, even argue with God or find Sean and take his hand so we can find Jesus together. It's important that Sean chooses the Holy Spirit in death, since he didn't in life.

 

[Serena 2026]

I understand what you mean in a way but want to clarify a few things. The world isn't just horrible. It's also wonderful and beautiful. It can be both at the same time depending on what you're looking at or just one if we're particularly grief stricken at a particular time or experiencing. My belief is that God who "governs" us doesn't control what we do or what happens to us. He doesn't want us to live this way or to suffer, why which is why we're instructed to live by certain commandments.


Those who commit those awful offenses aren't children of God, living by his word and that of a Father who loves them. God is very angry with them. I'm sure you're familiar with the seven deadly sins. We are warned what will happen if we partake in those acts.


He's a Father who allows us to choose. What kind of life would it be if we were robots? We can choose to be good or bad, but among us are powers who will help defend us from people who don't live righteously, whether they believe or not.

I'm not the kind of person that tries to persuade people to believe differently. We have a choice and you have access to the same literature as I do. However I would encourage more of an attempt to try and understand more completely. A strong philosophical approach may be more helpful then trying to examine it from a spiritual angle.

I just bought it from Amazon. It should be here early July but FYI I'm a slow reader. If I'm lucky I'll get through two pages a night, lol.

I'll start with this and maybe find the video. The link is not working for me. Lately the Bible hasn't been kind to me. I tried to work on anger and forgiveness by reading Jonah but got nothing from it. I admit to be more of a Jesus freak though. The OT just freaks me out some times.

I should be able to give it to God but I worry to much. It's like I want to know for sure and do everything I can, even argue with God or find Sean and take his hand so we can find Jesus together. It's important that Sean chooses the Holy Spirit in death, since he didn't in life.

I respect your opinion and your faith... I hope you find your Jesus after you die and live in paradise!!

 

[StarryEyed]

Good morning Amy. I just bought the book too. It'll be here between July 8-15. I'd love to read it slowly with you. Great! Thanks for buying it.

The full title of the YouTube video is "The Book of Job Summary: A complete animated overview." The channel is @bibleproject. I hope you like it.

You know your idea of committing suicide so you can guide Sean to Jesus has no basis in the Old Testament or the New Testament? I don't see either how it has anything to do with faith in God. Maybe you can share your logic behind this idea?

I'm wondering too if you might also consider that you're being judge and jury for Sean's soul, and that you might consider that is neither the church's place nor yours. Maybe by condemning Sean it helps alleviate your pain somewhat because blame can sometimes do that, by putting your pain on another person?

A long time ago, I was telling a priest how furious I was at God and that I even sometimes swore at him. The priest said, "Go ahead. Get mad at him. Scream and swear at him all you want and need to. He's God; He can handle it".

 

[amy joyce]

I just bought the book too.

Mine came today. So early that I had forgotten I ordered it. Maybe I should get started since I read slowly. That's not really true, I just fall asleep quickly lol.

guide Sean to Jesus has no basis in the Old Testament or the New Testament?

I didn't think so. That was a spontaneous thought during an obsessive time since he passed away.

At first I struggled with whether he'd even get to heaven because he was an agnostic. Despite getting disappointed in my quest by evangelicals (suicide doesn't matter but his lack of faith does) I decided I'd interpret text on my own. Reading the Bible can be like searching the internet for information. You can almost guarantee finding back for an idea. Mine was quite easy and I won't be swayed from it. I also true believe it.

But his being an agnostic and having a personality of accepting the most popular interpretation of saving by faith alone, I became concerned that he'd not be comfortable seeking out Jesus in order to get to God, as the scripture in John 14 states (I basically applied "I am the way the truth and the life....." to people who have died, knowing that Sean would choose Jesus when he saw Him in heaven. Sean had stated that if he saw Jesus in life that he'd believe). So I immediately got caught up in thinking that since I felt like dying anyway that I could turn it into a purposeful quest and ensure that Sean found Jesus, chose the Holy Spirit and get to heaven. I got it into my mind that without my help Sean might become a lost soul and get stuck in between realms. Perhaps by doing so make up for a belief that I failed him in life. That's an entirely other saga in my stages of grief and dealing with loss. So I just made up this idea that I could somehow help him find the heavenly road to Jesus, choose the Holy Spirit and be eternally saved.

Re swearing at God: The response is similar to what I think my step father would say. He was a former seminarian. Odd how the Sisters are always portrayed as strict, serious and sometimes so angry that they might hurt us. Priests seem more the opposite. I'm happy he had a bit of a sense of humor for you and perhaps helped lighten the angry load you were carrying.

I look forward to our book "club". Should we start a thread and ask if others would like to join us?

 

[amy joyce]

I respect your opinion and your faith... I hope you find your Jesus after you die and live in paradise!!

Likewise. Maybe you will have a change of heart someday. I like to think that whether you do or not, you will go to heaven when you die.

 

[StarryEyed]

Hi Amy. I understand now where your logic was. I can't imagine how you can think straight at all after having lost your son, so my guess is you're in some rather troubled waters leading to some rather convoluted thinking, trying to wrap your heart and mind around an unfathomable loss.

Interesting that you bring up the stages of grief. Are you referring to the Kubler-Ross model of grieving, with the five stages of grief? Because that's what I was thinking as I've been reading your posts, that you might be in the bargaining stage of grief - bargaining with God, bargaining with your past life with Sean and imagining it to be different, bargaining with your own life, and even bargaining with the afterlife. I see all of this might be part of your grieving, which could well be quite healthy, even though it is painful. Is that possible?

From my side of things, when I think of heaven and hell, I don't think of the afterlife practically at all, as it's just not of interest to me. If I lost a son perhaps I would find interest in the concept, but it just hasn't been of interest to me. However, when I think about heaven and hell, I always apply the concepts to life on Earth, as in living. Because I have experienced hell on Earth, and moments of Heaven on Earth. And that matters to me.

If you'd like to start a new thread on the book, sure, go ahead. But my guess is it might be setting us up for some serious gunfire. Remember we're on a suicide site, so this is a pretty sticky subject. Regardless of how you want to do this reading, I'm very excited to be reading it with you, and I'm really looking forward to hanging out while we read it and share thoughts and feelings.

 

[amy joyce]

I'm really looking forward to hanging out while we read it and share thoughts and feelings.

Then we'll do it privately. I don't worry too much about what others think regardless of the kind of site we are on. It all relates to death in some way, so why can't it be positive? Unless I'm completely wrong about the book subject; I sort of just went for it since I like to read and discuss. Btw I thought others might like to join. It would probably end up being a huge mess in a typed forum. I've seen some settings of support like forums where the moderators practically turned into witches. I don't think it's something I want to partake in, lol.

that you might be in the bargaining stage of grief - bargaining with God, bargaining with your past life with Sean and imagining it to be different,

Yes most certainly. I'm in therapy and she's brought it up many times. Sometimes I want to strangle her for saying again "you're certainly in the bargaining stage of grief". Thee stages are meaningless to me right now because I don't think I'll ever move on. The only change I've experienced has been longer periods of time that I don't think about it but when I do it comes rushing back again, all the pain just as strong as it was before. Actually I also sob less but I think I'm just too tired to continue. It's draining.

------
Something is wrong with the site I think. I cannot find my other post to you but you have obviously replied. I didn't remember mentioning grief and now can't find where I mentioned it. No worries.

Give me a hollar when you get the book. I check in minimally every two days.

 

[StarryEyed]

Hi Amy

Your post is there but you have to expand by clicking where I circled in yellow....



It is in that message that you mentioned stages of grief when you said, "That's an entirely other saga in my stages of grief and dealing with loss."

Grieving, as you probably know, isn't limited to a person's death. It can be applied to the end of a relationship, a job, a dream, a home, an idea, and so much more. This model is a tool I use all the time. What you describe as longer periods of not falling apart is actually progress, as I'm sure you probably know. As you probably also know, we typically cycle in and out of the 5 stages, making a general progress towards the end - acceptance. So there is denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. From what I've read here, it sounds to me like you've experienced all five stages already.

Given what you've said, I too think it's a good idea to do a thread for the book - a book club. Besides, at the rate of two pages a day, with the book being 112 pages, that's about two months, and quite frankly I don't know if I can last that long. So others can pick up the slack if I can't make it.

So my book will arrive some time between the 8th to 15th. I'm a fast reader, so you can start now if you wish, and I can catch up. It's totally up to you. My preference, however, is for you to wait, so we can read it together. I've never belonged to a book club.

 

[thekop85]

Since I have almost no religious experience,
these stories of yours are unfamiliar to me, but I find them interesting.
I truly believe your son is doing well in a happy place right now.
For people like me, escaping this situation is the only salvation. (Of course, your son may have been different from me.)
Thank you for sharing story.

 

[amy joyce]

Thank you for sharing story.

I received an interested private chat and among more it included the following (describing what they believe my Sean, an agnostic, was experiencing):

And what I can say from my humble experiences with all of this, is that God, the Divine, knows our hearts. Mankind has painted the lines of right and wrong, hell and redemption. But the real Divine is so much more expansive and omnipotent than all that we have been taught.

***What your son did not believe in was the God that is preached about in this world. One that seems to let cruelty win and tramples on the souls of the innocent. Your son was pure. He was so pure that his innate integrity to his own goodness could no longer take part in this world. And so he flew, that is why out of all of the ways to go, he jumped.***

He left for reasons of wanting to go home, and I promise you that his soul returned to its Source, his soul knew where to guide him to. Just like the soul of my friend´s nephew knew where to return back into. Because the angels (it is just the word I use) are there, calmly waiting in a heavenly embrace. The clarity of one´s purity is what they read/see, and what they usher home. The confusion and conflict does not leave with us, not if our souls are pure, no matter how tormented one is on their departure. And the Divine has a much more comprehensive concept of purity than mankind´s interpretation.

 

[StarryEyed]

Hi Amy! Did you see my message on Saturday?