NSFW Hear me out!

[FoxSauce]

Ilabled this in NSFW just in case.

First off, I'm not sure how this will come across, and if it rubs anyone the wrong way, I sincerely apologize that's not my intention. I believe everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and the last thing I want is to start an argument or stir up negativity around a sensitive topic.


I'll admit, I'm nervous even writing this.


For the past few weeks, I've been quietly reading through a forum for incels. As a girl, I found some of the content extremely offensive misogynistic, racist, and even violent at times. No, I don't believe people deserve sex just beacuse . A lot of it was disturbing, and it was hard to read. There's a lot of anger directed at women, blaming them and society for their personal struggles.


And still… some posts made me wonder: how does someone end up holding that much anger toward an entire gender?


Do I hate them? Honestly, no. I don't excuse what they say, but I think a lot of them are just deeply hurt maybe by women, maybe by other things. Yes, some women can be mean, shallow, or even cruel. But that's true for people in general not just women, not just men.

I won't lie either I make geralizations too.

No gender is entirely good or bad. Not all men are toxic, and not all women are manipulative or heartless. And sure, some individuals regardless of gender do deserve consequences for harmful actions, especially in serious cases like SA or other crimes. But blaming an entire gender for personal pain? That doesn't feel like the right path to healing or understanding.


I believe everyone deserves respect, regardless of gender. And of course, things like mental illness, low self-esteem, trauma, and depression can play a role in how people act and think (though I'm no expert, so what the hell do I know ).


I know this post won't change the world or fix anything. But I guess what I'm saying is: maybe everyone deserves at least a second chance. Maybe more compassion and less generalization would go a long way.

---

 

[Darkover]

to be wired for something then being denied it like needing food to eat
nature is a repressive machine
humans, are just machines wired to keep the cycle going, no matter the cost to individual well-being.
that's why i want extinction to end this cycle of misery inflicted by everything alive here

 

[WhiteRabbit]

Some people get extremely resentful after rejection or even perceived rejection. People with strong senses of entitlement. Now that internet echo chambers are a thing, these resentful men radicalize each other.

I think a lot of them aren't unhappy because they can't find dates. They're unhappy, period. Women are just what they choose to blame, because they're misogynists.

I don't feel sorry for them.

 

[Pluto]

 

[bankai]

It's not just the hate towards women but extreme racism and offensive language as well on those sites.very loose moderation over there.


watch Elliott Rodgers manifesto video that he made a day before his shootings to know what a true incel is.


There's always going to be a subset of people like that and it's never going to change.

These threads usually get pretty popular and then eventually locked,let's see

 

[GhostInTheMachine]

I can't ever empathize/sympathize with incels. Small preface, I am a trans woman which means that my sex is male, while my gender is woman (bear with me here, this wording is specific). Before transitioning, I held a lot of what some would call "misogynist" beliefs. I didn't hate females, I just understood that because of their sex, they would enjoy different opportunities that I as a male would never have. What a lot of incels fail to understand is that this goes both ways. Males enjoy an IMMENSE amount of privilege from the sole fact of their biology.

Is there downsides to being a male? Of course, but incels often act as if there is no downside to being female when by that same biological coin, females have challenges that males will usually never have to worry about. Both sexes (I distinguish this from gender) have their pros and cons, but in my opinion, especially post-transition, females often will have it harder in life due to lacking the sheer power that males often automatically have. There is a world of difference between your main challenge in life being "manning up" vs worrying about the males you keep around you trying to violate you the second they get the chance.

This is not to say that no male will face the challenge of a female, and vice versa, but trends and averages are what they are, and until we're honest about them, nobody will have a truly clear picture of the landscape before them. Incels often distort what they see directly in front of them, and then horse-blind themselves into thinking that's all there is to see. It's easy to make those weaker than you your enemy when you lack the conviction to pull your head out of your ass and think that the smell is because of them. If there's anybody incels should hate, it's themselves.

Now, would I want to try to lift these people up and better their conditions? Sure, if they're willing to actually fucking try, which often comes up as the primary issue they have. Part of being an incel is a massive sense of entitlement, that if it were missing, they frankly wouldn't even be incels because they would just move on from whatever is bothering them and find a better way. It's in the very name "incel" (which by the way is a very stupid term because celibacy is by definition voluntary, so you can not involuntarily be celibate). The only reason they took on the moniker is because "boo hoo, I can't have sex". Well, a fuck ton of other people also can't but most of them don't make it everybody else's problem. I understand that the desire for sex is a biological imperative hardwired into us because of evolution, but quite frankly get the fuck over it.

You're not going to die because you didn't bust a load with a female. It sucks, but dear fucking lord, it's not that serious. If that is all you think about in life, it speaks volumes to how empty the rest of your existence is. I've felt the pain. I know it well, but I did not go around crying "woe is me" because of my skill issue. I locked in, cleaned my shit up, bettered my mind, my body, and my spirit, and still didn't even have sex with a female after all of that. I still felt better though. I felt awesome because I was able to enjoy what I accomplished for the little bit it kept the suicidality away.

I will admit, I have regressed recently and lost a fair bit of my gains, but even then I've never felt the need to hate the opposite sex. Am I envious of them? Yes, absolutely, but not for the same reasons as incels. They want to hate females, I want to be a female, we are not the same. I did however manage to snag a BF in the process, which is something that a lot of females struggle to do, so what a bittersweet irony that turned out to be, eh?

 

[DivineSpark]

It's not just the hate towards women but extreme racism and offensive language as well on those sites.very loose moderation over there.


watch Elliott Rodgers manifesto video that he made a day before his shootings to know what a true incel is.


There's always going to be a subset of people like that and it's never going to change.

These threads usually get pretty popular and then eventually locked,let's see

Elliot Rodger was rich kid. If he wanted sex so much, he could have bought prostitute.

 

[ElTopo]

Ilabled this in NSFW just in case.

First off, I'm not sure how this will come across, and if it rubs anyone the wrong way, I sincerely apologize that's not my intention. I believe everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and the last thing I want is to start an argument or stir up negativity around a sensitive topic.


I'll admit, I'm nervous even writing this.


For the past few weeks, I've been quietly reading through a forum for incels. As a girl, I found some of the content extremely offensive misogynistic, racist, and even violent at times. No, I don't believe people deserve sex just beacuse . A lot of it was disturbing, and it was hard to read. There's a lot of anger directed at women, blaming them and society for their personal struggles.


And still… some posts made me wonder: how does someone end up holding that much anger toward an entire gender?


Do I hate them? Honestly, no. I don't excuse what they say, but I think a lot of them are just deeply hurt maybe by women, maybe by other things. Yes, some women can be mean, shallow, or even cruel. But that's true for people in general not just women, not just men.

I won't lie either I make geralizations too.

No gender is entirely good or bad. Not all men are toxic, and not all women are manipulative or heartless. And sure, some individuals regardless of gender do deserve consequences for harmful actions, especially in serious cases like SA or other crimes. But blaming an entire gender for personal pain? That doesn't feel like the right path to healing or understanding.


I believe everyone deserves respect, regardless of gender. And of course, things like mental illness, low self-esteem, trauma, and depression can play a role in how people act and think (though I'm no expert, so what the hell do I know ).


I know this post won't change the world or fix anything. But I guess what I'm saying is: maybe everyone deserves at least a second chance. Maybe more compassion and less generalization would go a long way.

---

It's the bitterness and resentfulness that makes you lash out indiscriminately, most peopl like this tend to adopt extremist political views and generally have a very cynical world view. I don't think they should be demonized, at the end they are hurt, traumatized, isolated and often abused or bullied people, and sometimes I think we can safely blame the society we live in for creating such a phenomenon, let's be real, more and more people tend to adopt this view of the world, I think it has to do with how we as a society are becoming more and more materialistic and less philosophical/spiritual in a sense, less empathetic and connected. One might even blame this on the loss of certain values that made society more empathetic.

 

[Apathy79]

It's the same as any generalised hate. The rationalisations are largely irrelevant. There are also a disturbing amount of hating men posts here on the other side which are equally irrational. I can guarantee if you hate an entire gender, race, all people on the other political wing to yours, all people with different spiritual beliefs to yours, etc., (there are dead set a million of these but those are the 4 that seem most common to me off the top of my head), the problem is with you and not with what you hate.

 

[bankai]

Elliot Rodger was rich kid. If he wanted sex so much, he could have bought prostitute.

He was going to college at the time and wanted all the girls there to flock to him . it was a sense of entitlement.didn't have much to do with actual sex.

He wanted to be adored and worshipped by his peers,mainly women though.

 

[The Actual Devil]

Best of luck with this thread, FoxSauce. And I wouldn't spend too much time in those forums, as there isn't much more to learn beyond what you've seen already. There's no great mystery, no secret or surprise that will fall into place next. You can learn more about loneliness and longing from poets, minus the hate speech.

My empathy batteries don't seem to hold a charge around incels, at least not the ones who would refuse any chance to be guided out of their pit. It's like what you said, though, about second chances: the ones who want one are welcome to it. But I wouldn't spend time trying to evangelize them. Not that it isn't noble; it would simply drive me mad.

I know firsthand how the mind of a bigot works on account of the way my parents tried to raise me. There is nothing more selfish and idiotic than bigotry.

A bullet is far healthier for someone's mind than bigotry.
​

He was going to college at the time and wanted all the girls there to flock to him . it was a sense of entitlement.didn't have much to do with actual sex.

Sounds like he would have been a future politician if college had gone the way he expected it to.

It's in the very name "incel" (which by the way is a very stupid term because celibacy is by definition voluntary, so you can not involuntarily be celibate).

I miss when they called themselves KHHVs. Guess it made them seem too human.

 

[Skallagrim]

And still… some posts made me wonder: how does someone end up holding that much anger toward an entire gender?

---

They're suffering, they're lonely, they're isolated.

That, in and of itself, is nothing new. I'm pretty sure a lot of older guys here will say that lonely men feeling depressed isn't a modern invention.

But now these guys are used as a pinata in the culture war - everything is their fault. Not just their loneliness, not just their depression, but everything from slavery to oppression of women in the 17th century.

They see other demographics being given support, sympathy, and compassion, but for them and their suffering it's "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps! Man up! And show your feelings more! And also don't cry about this! And also don't be afraid to cry!"

It's a real mess and it's having dire consequences for the mental health of a lot of young men, who then gravitate to those places where they might find, at the very least, a voice who will listen to them, and talk back to them with a modicum of understanding.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I'd say you are more generous than me. I do try to be generous and understanding but, I tend to find myself getting argumentative and triggered reading the more hateful type incel threads. I try to avoid them for that reason. There was one the other day about how a guy enjoyed watching illegal porn and women being hurt and raped.

I agree that free speech is important. It's good to have somewhere we can be honest and vent. It's important for people to be honest too. And obviously, violent thoughts aren't the same as violent actions although- illegal porn isn't victimless.

I also join you in wondering what happened to them to make them so aggressive and hateful. I have no doubt there are some terrible women out there. (Again though- how did those women become so terrible in the first place? Was it their fault either?)

It's tricky though because I also somewhat stand by: 'A dog that bites is a dog that bites.' On the one hand, we should be trying to understand how people become resentful to the point of becoming aggressive. If there are genuine wrongs, we ought to try to right them. On the other though, people need to protect themselves.

Coming from a female perspective, I have my own bias. It struck me though- the broad differences between the genders. A while back, a member said he felt very hurt by an 'I hate men' thread. On the one hand, he accepted he was an individual susceptible to being triggered by this type of talk. Many women were saying how they didn't trust men or, how they felt afraid of them. I can understand this can be upsetting to someone who struggles approaching women but, wanting to. Still, it's no real wonder when there are guys out there who openly say they enjoy watching violence against women. It's also unfair to deny women their voice in expressing fears around domestic violence etc. That's another form of oppresion. It all just reminded me of that Margaret Atwood quote:

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them"

I do tend to agree with you that, when it becomes aggressive, it does suggest a level of entitlement. I probably did identify as a femcel when I was young (although I didn't know the term.) I realised that I didn't fit any of the attractive female stereotypes. That I didn't even want to. I also held a cynicism/ resentment that men went for such obvious and shallow attributes (not all men.) I don't think I exactly felt angry towards them though. More like the beautiful people were part of some exclusive club I would never get to join. I hated society and biology for making certain attributes so important but I think we're pretty much all victims in falling for that.

I tend to agree that the agression side of it suggests that they have been personally wronged by individual women (some will have been of course.) If it's simply a case that they won't sleep with them or date them though- that's surely a demand that they are owed that. No one is owed that! No one is entitled to 'possess' another person. That would totally obliterate free will. So, I suppose some inceldom is a feminism issue- we're not docile, tame objects that owe men anything. We're people who make decisions- just the same way they do. Plus, I doubt it's always their (supposedly lack of) looks, height or money that put women off. It could just as well be their underlying entitlement and resentment towards women.

I want to add here that, not all incels are aggressive and, I absolutely do have time for men or women who are reasonable, respectful but lonely. Hatred/ frustration towards inequality in society is also understandable- so long as it doesn't become personal. Obviously, where we have been personally wronged, venting is understandable too.

It's sometimes hard to judge where someone is coming from when we don't know their background. I'm sure it can be almost inevitable some men and women end up the way they do- given their experiences. Personally though, there are some types of threads I just try to avoid now. I tend to find discussions with either the more militant incels or pro-lifers turn ugly rather fast.

 

[Seered Doom]

Coming from a trans male perspective, hate how incels make things so black and white. All or nothing. They also are exclusionary by design to make an echo chamber and maximum isolation, which in turn, makes it harder for them to ebb out of such a toxic environment. There is no in between. Same with femcels. Both groups are hate filled and none are able to actually look pass their own close minded views to see things from another perspective.

 

[Apathy79]

I've said my rant about hating generalised groups already but I want to address the incel thing directly and relate an experience from today. I'll preface this by saying I'm not involved in any of these communities and have only really read reports of them from others, so correct me if I'm wrong on the specifics, but I think huge parts of the ideology comes from dating sites, where the experience of virtually all men seems to be if you don't have looks, fame or money, nothing else matters. No-one is ever going to match with you unless they're a scammer or there's something severely wrong with them. So you can't date that way, and it is entirely because you don't look good enough or have obvious wealth or fame to compensate.

I don't have any personal experience with dating sites, but I've never heard pushback on that from anyone, women or men, so I assume it is probably true. I also know a few guys who are good looking that use those sites, and some of them have dates multiple times a day, it becomes their whole life. They get everyone on the site and have the problem of choosing, and the rest get nothing. 1 match for every 200 swipes. And that breeds resentment. So they find these communities that explain these discrepancies in a way that makes them feel better about themselves by blaming the women instead. And over time it festers and gets reinforced, because there is truth to what they're saying in that context.

But I really don't think it applies the same outside of dating sites. All of my friends and family are married, almost without exception. A huge number of the men in that group are not good looking. At this point there's probably almost an even distribution between people who met their wives online vs irl. I don't know of a single one who did it through a dating site. The people who met online did it through interest groups, DMing friends of friends, various forums and chat groups, etc. They get to know each other first and bond relatively deeply about shared interests. Then meet. And you know what? It frequently works. And it works for men who would never have matched with that same woman on any dating site.

Then there's the irl way of meeting. That's how I met my ex-fiance when I was younger. Walking the dog. In the same place every day. Where she also walked hers. The dogs liked to play with each other. So we got used to talking to each other. And over time we got to know each other well. And it worked. Would she have matched me on a dating site? Not a hope in hades! But it can still happen.

Which brings me to today. I've been doing gym classes for a while. But I never really talk to anyone in them. Today I just decided it was time for that to stop. So I got to class early. And introduced myself to the lady I was set up next to. Said I've probably seen her 100 times but never said hello so thought I better stop being a stranger. She introduced herself back. We started talking about why we do the class, which were slightly different. Then the class started and not much was said during but I did catch the odd smile and reciprocated. At the end she said it was nice to finally meet me. I asked what she was up to now and she said she's going to go for a walk on the beach and then head home for dinner. I asked if she minds if I tag along for a bit, I'm meeting a friend on the way (I wasn't, my bad). She said sure. So we got to know each other a little more before I excused myself to "meet my friend". Now I have no idea if this will turn into anything, I don't even know if she is single yet, but here's the thing - I'm not good looking, at all, I very rarely speak to people (I've been a hermit for over a decade), I have very little money and I'm certainly not famous. This is not a woman who would match me on a dating site. No chance. And yet look what happens with a tiny bit of effort to break out of my comfort zone. I think she was shocked a normal guy was game to talk to her like a normal person - it's suddenly a rare thing.

I just think incels need to get off dating sites where their beliefs will likely be reinforced and try other options. But going in with the belief that they're unlikable because of their appearance will probably sabotage that too (and any woman hating stuff definitely will).

 

[WhatCouldHaveBeen32]

No. I don't have empathy, I hate BOTH of my parents, not once did I start associating either gender OR in general other parents with them, I don't have a vendetta against the concept of parents , and unlike incels, my parents actually had a negative impact in my life, they should get out of here with that weak ass bullshit. They can't find a girlfriend? booo hooo, you are not owed that in the first place anyways. You are however owed good parents and you don't see me make parents.is where I start to berate every single parent to ever exist , no empathy and no excuses, I do have empathy for those who don't send death threats to people and don't participate in a toxic cesspool of a community, save your empathy for those people.

 

[FoxSauce]

No. I don't have empathy, I hate BOTH of my parents, not once did I start associating either gender OR in general other parents with them, I don't have a vendetta against the concept of parents , and unlike incels, my parents actually had a negative impact in my life, they should get out of here with that weak ass bullshit. They can't find a girlfriend? booo hooo, you are not owed that in the first place anyways. You are however owed good parents and you don't see me make parents.is where I start to berate every single parent to ever exist , no empathy and no excuses, I do have empathy for those who don't send death threats to people and don't participate in a toxic cesspool of a community, save your empathy for those people.

I may sound offensive and im sorry you feel this anger towards your parents.

How does parents have to do with this?

If that sounds mean im so sorry really.

 

[derpyderpins]

I definitely feel empathy for them, even though they've largely become twisted and awful, you can still pity them.

It's very tough. At the outset is the backdrop that loneliness is growing all over. Connections are becoming fewer and further between. Social needs simply going unmet.

Both genders have their own obstacles, and I don't believe either has it worse, per se, just different, but I also see how each can be pushed to thinking that they have it worse.

For men, there is truth in what they say about how hard it is to meet someone and get in a relationship. People meet more and more through dating apps predominantly, and the experience is just horrible. (Again, it's bad for women in a different way, but I'm focusing on the men's side.) While women are bombarded with messages by anyone they give the good swipe to, men just get nothing. I've shared in more detail before but when my long-term college relationship ended, I had a pretty damn good profile on paper and still had literally hundreds - approaching a thousand - women with whom I swiped 'sure, I'd go on a date with them' and got essentially 0 response. That is crushing. Even if you know in your head it's a rigged system and it doesn't necessarily say anything about you, you can't help but feel that non-stop rejection always. It makes it so every second you breathe you're being rejected.

Add that in with our backdrop of general loneliness: a social species not meeting its social needs.

Now we all get propagandized on looks, and it's gross, sure. People who are perfectly fine and even good-looking thinking they're hideous for not being magazine-level. It seems that women have been hit harder by it in terms of how they see men - and possibly themselves. Men, when rating women's looks on a scale of 1 to 10, make a remarkably consistent bell curve. Women, when rating men, put something like (estimate, it's been a long time since I read this stuff) 80% of men as being "below average."

That gives you a path to blame women as a gender.

Women have the upper hand in the dating market, generally. That's just a fact of averages. Does that mean that women don't have trouble? Of course not. But basically, your composite-average woman is going to have more dating success than your composite-average man.

I put all of the above to show that the incel/neet circles start with a grain of truth.

But the question still stands as you presented it: how do you take that and get to blanket hatred of a gender? After all, women are great.

First, very much to your point about the importance of compassion, they don't feel like anyone really is there to listen to them in normal online circles. This wouldn't matter, except they are in a situation where that's all they have, because social needs aren't being met IRL. They then flock to each other. Problem being, they aren't exactly stable people or people capable of supporting each other. It leads to this downward-spiraling pit of vitriol that compounds and compounds and the hate builds up greater and greater.

A lot of people realize that those places are sinkholes and get out. What remains, then, are the worst of them. Young men who feel impotent, powerless, trapped; men who have no agency in their lives, or at least perceive that they don't; men from bad situations who were never taught how to get out, or who failed and gave up; men who are naturally angry and aggressive, but without direction in life have no way to channel those emotions productively; men who have the psychology of a bully without the strength to actually bully. It's a lot of putting on a face, acting tough, acting cool, and for people who are themselves - sorry to be blunt, but - losers.

This now comes to explain why I can feel empathy for them. Say now you're a lonely young man - as I once was! I was in college in early-ish reddit days on "foreveralone" - and you're looking for some sort of an outlet. You don't have people to talk to this about IRL. Even if you did, you'd be afraid of showing weakness. You go online, looking for someone to empathize and tell you that at least you aren't crazy and things really are tough. What you see first is that people like you are considered to be awful and toxic, and have been kicked out from mainstream places. You weren't there for that, so you don't know the details. You go to poke your head in and see where they are now, and the people holding their arms open are those worst of the worst toxic remains at the bottom of the sinkhole.

I think that is a very important point for those young men (well, young people, but women who willingly get involved with them is another story), where compassion and understanding can be shown and they can navigate through the muddy waters, but the odds of that drop exponentially once they ingratiate themselves. I visualize it as them being at a sharp peak of a ridge with a drop in either direction, and if they fall on the incel group side it's a major setback.

So, I'm with you on trying to be overly patient and compassionate. I will caution that you have to realize when someone actively is rejecting help and pull your hand back, at least in my experience.

 

[The Actual Devil]

How does parents have to do with this?

A lot of misogyny and by extension incel mindsets are related to those boys having shitty abusive and/or negligent mothers, and often absent or whipped fathers. Just like @WhatCouldHaveBeen32, I hated both of my parents by the time I reached adulthood. But for a while, when I hated just my mother, I felt distrust toward women poisoning my brain because, as a young 'un, I assumed all women must be like her. I also had some very vile women as teachers for my first few years of school, and my bullies during those formative years happened to be girls. Luckily, I met some great women soon after and realized I was engaging in what I would later learn to be inductive reasoning based on my limited experiences.

Tl;dr: Girls/women being mean to little boys is often the first point in the incel pipeline.

I've said my rant about hating generalised groups already but I want to address the incel thing directly and relate an experience from today. I'll preface this by saying I'm not involved in any of these communities and have only really read reports of them from others, so correct me if I'm wrong on the specifics, but I think huge parts of the ideology comes from dating sites, where the experience of virtually all men seems to be if you don't have looks, fame or money, nothing else matters. No-one is ever going to match with you unless they're a scammer or there's something severely wrong with them. So you can't date that way, and it is entirely because you don't look good enough or have obvious wealth or fame to compensate.

I don't have any personal experience with dating sites, but I've never heard pushback on that from anyone, women or men, so I assume it is probably true. I also know a few guys who are good looking that use those sites, and some of them have dates multiple times a day, it becomes their whole life. They get everyone on the site and have the problem of choosing, and the rest get nothing. 1 match for every 200 swipes. And that breeds resentment. So they find these communities that explain these discrepancies in a way that makes them feel better about themselves by blaming the women instead. And over time it festers and gets reinforced, because there is truth to what they're saying in that context.

But I really don't think it applies the same outside of dating sites. All of my friends and family are married, almost without exception. A huge number of the men in that group are not good looking. At this point there's probably almost an even distribution between people who met their wives online vs irl. I don't know of a single one who did it through a dating site. The people who met online did it through interest groups, DMing friends of friends, various forums and chat groups, etc. They get to know each other first and bond relatively deeply about shared interests. Then meet. And you know what? It frequently works. And it works for men who would never have matched with that same woman on any dating site.

Then there's the irl way of meeting. That's how I met my ex-fiance when I was younger. Walking the dog. In the same place every day. Where she also walked hers. The dogs liked to play with each other. So we got used to talking to each other. And over time we got to know each other well. And it worked. Would she have matched me on a dating site? Not a hope in hades! But it can still happen.

Which brings me to today. I've been doing gym classes for a while. But I never really talk to anyone in them. Today I just decided it was time for that to stop. So I got to class early. And introduced myself to the lady I was set up next to. Said I've probably seen her 100 times but never said hello so thought I better stop being a stranger. She introduced herself back. We started talking about why we do the class, which were slightly different. Then the class started and not much was said during but I did catch the odd smile and reciprocated. At the end she said it was nice to finally meet me. I asked what she was up to now and she said she's going to go for a walk on the beach and then head home for dinner. I asked if she minds if I tag along for a bit, I'm meeting a friend on the way (I wasn't, my bad). She said sure. So we got to know each other a little more before I excused myself to "meet my friend". Now I have no idea if this will turn into anything, I don't even know if she is single yet, but here's the thing - I'm not good looking, at all, I very rarely speak to people (I've been a hermit for over a decade), I have very little money and I'm certainly not famous. This is not a woman who would match me on a dating site. No chance. And yet look what happens with a tiny bit of effort to break out of my comfort zone. I think she was shocked a normal guy was game to talk to her like a normal person - it's suddenly a rare thing.

I just think incels need to get off dating sites where their beliefs will likely be reinforced and try other options. But going in with the belief that they're unlikable because of their appearance will probably sabotage that too (and any woman hating stuff definitely will).

Regarding dating sites, I would like to point out something that most men are unaware of.

WOMEN ARE NOT IGNORING YOU!

THEY. SIMPLY. ARE. NOT. THERE!!!

First off, we all know the ratio of men to women is abysmal on most apps, but it's worse than you realize.

Dating sites and apps make it intentionally difficult to deactivate your account. Granted, it's not as hard as canceling a stereotypical gym membership, but simply deleting the app is easier.

So, what happens is that a woman will make an account, get more than enough attention in the first few days (if not hours), go on several dates, find a guy she likes, and delete the app after agreeing to go exclusive with him. Hell, Hinge ads outright tell you that is what you're supposed to do!
Or she just gets sick of the creeps and deletes the app while remaining single, ofc.

And then her account remains inactive but VISIBLE, probably FOREVER. Yet, they still count her dead profile as part of their "ratio" and "user total count" for the sake of advertising.

And if you want to filter out inactive accounts, guess what? You gotta buy that PREMIUM, BABY!

Oh, and the premium filters lie, too. The site gets to decide what "inactive" means. Did she accidentally open the app for a second when trying to open her Insta? WHOOO! She's active again, boys! Better put that green symbol next to her account for the next month!

Oh, and ladies, if you're reading this and you've ever made a dating profile and then abandoned it, do me a small favor and deactivate your dating account. Not as a boon to men, but to fuck over the corporation that's using your body as free advertising. Thank you.

 

[WhatCouldHaveBeen32]

I may sound offensive and im sorry you feel this anger towards your parents.

How does parents have to do with this?

If that sounds mean im so sorry really.

I meant that, a bad mother, a bad father can really REALLY affect you, and the fact that they are part of a gender or a sex whatever you want to call it, can make you view that specific gender/sex through a very bad lenses, however , you having a bad parent doesn't mean that all women are cheating whores or that all men are cheating bastards that leave the household and when you see another parent, you shouldn't instantly think "damn what if that parent is misstreating their kid". This is what most incels don't understand, their experience with one or two women or what they see online DOESN'T represent every single woman. And just because they were treated badly by that one woman doesn't mean that all will do the same thing.


That's what I meant in my comparasing, one bad experience doesn't mean all that, you find pieces of shit on every corner of the street, I do think that most humans suck but until I'm proven right, I can't go and insult and distrust every single human, because most of the time I am proven wrong, be it by them acting good in that moment or by truly being good people. And I also meant that in my opinion, I have a right to be angry as I was betrayed in my childhood, I should in fact be weary of every man or woman I meet and distrust any type of parental figure, yet here I am not doing that, because reason and logic override my emotions.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

I think Incels themselves are not an "either you are or you're not" thing. The ones ramming about on forums made for them are probably close to the extreme end of inceldom, but even me, myself, have incelish tendencies too due to the lack of positive female figures in my formative years. Am I an Incel? Where does one draw the line. When I say I empathize with them, people often go to the most extreme examples, but I empathize with people like me, that have those thoughts, and know they are harmful, and try to not take them to heart

 

[FoxSauce]

I meant that, a bad mother, a bad father can really REALLY affect you, and the fact that they are part of a gender or a sex whatever you want to call it, can make you view that specific gender/sex through a very bad lenses, however , you having a bad parent doesn't mean that all women are cheating whores or that all men are cheating bastards that leave the household and when you see another parent, you shouldn't instantly think "damn what if that parent is misstreating their kid". This is what most incels don't understand, their experience with one or two women or what they see online DOESN'T represent every single woman. And just because they were treated badly by that one woman doesn't mean that all will do the same thing.


That's what I meant in my comparasing, one bad experience doesn't mean all that, you find pieces of shit on every corner of the street, I do think that most humans suck but until I'm proven right, I can't go and insult and distrust every single human, because most of the time I am proven wrong, be it by them acting good in that moment or by truly being good people. And I also meant that in my opinion, I have a right to be angry as I was betrayed in my childhood, I should in fact be weary of every man or woman I meet and distrust any type of parental figure, yet here I am not doing that, because reason and logic override my emotions.

I mean your entittled to your own opinion dude. It can play play that in your perception of people.

Im so sorry you went through that and you dont deserve that. Sorry of i dont have much input

 

[alwaysalone]

I'd say you are more generous than me. I do try to be generous and understanding but, I tend to find myself getting argumentative and triggered reading the more hateful type incel threads. I try to avoid them for that reason. There was one the other day about how a guy enjoyed watching illegal porn and women being hurt and raped.

I agree that free speech is important. It's good to have somewhere we can be honest and vent. It's important for people to be honest too. And obviously, violent thoughts aren't the same as violent actions although- illegal porn isn't victimless.

It all just reminded me of that Margaret Atwood quote:

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them"

Sorry not buying this. I have never been afraid some random man who approached me would kill me. LOLno woman I have ever know has feared this. This is over dramatization and lack of preparedness maybe(?) If you HONESTLY think a man will kill you why are around/dating them?? If you don't stop using that kind of ridiculous language. I can fully defend myself. Everybwomanshould be able to especially if their scared. Some men are monsters so are some women. Are you afraid every woman will kill you as well?
On a side not I do find it interesting that the same people who will swear men should be able to compete in women's sports because "there's no difference" are sooooo..... scared of men. Why??? If there's no difference??? Not saying you in particular just in general.

 

[WhiteRabbit]

LOLno woman I have ever know has feared this.

I have.

 

[alwaysalone]

I have.

So every time a man has approached you your 1st thought was he's going to kill me??? That's paranoia. I suppose I can also assume you're an agoraphobic virgin?? Who has never left their home??? Come on I'm just asking for a little reality. Every male teacher? Every man in a store who asked if you needed help? It's ridiculous brothers??? Father?? Cousins??? Uncles??? Grandfather??? All are suspect because they may kill you???

 

[WhiteRabbit]

So every time a man has approached you your 1st thought was he's going to kill me??? That's paranoia. I suppose I can also assume you're an agoraphobic virgin?? Who has never left their home??? Come on I'm just asking for a little reality. Every male teacher? Every man in a store who asked if you needed help? It's ridiculous brothers??? Father?? Cousins??? Uncles??? Grandfather??? All are suspect because they may kill you???

I don't think you have enough question marks in this reply.

No, not every man, but some.

 

[NonEssential]

Fortunately I direct this "incel rage" to myself to fuel my self-hatred and never towards women. I know I'm a loser, but at least not an entitled one.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

Fortunately I direct this "incel rage" to myself to fuel my self-hatred and never towards women. I know I'm a loser, but at least not an entitled one.

Yeah I can relate...I just hate that I have those thoughts at all.

 

[deathbydesign]

So every time a man has approached you your 1st thought was he's going to kill me??? That's paranoia. I suppose I can also assume you're an agoraphobic virgin?? Who has never left their home??? Come on I'm just asking for a little reality. Every male teacher? Every man in a store who asked if you needed help? It's ridiculous brothers??? Father?? Cousins??? Uncles??? Grandfather??? All are suspect because they may kill you???

A lot to unpack here. And also a lot of extremism. Are you a conservative by chance? Just curious because I notice they do that a lot. Not one person said EVERY MAN. No one even hinted towards that assumption. Not everything is extreme like that.

I am very much a woman who typically is never scared of anyone. I've been a fighter since a child and can hold my own. However - I also am not so egotistical to think that I can also win a fight against a man much bigger and stronger than me. It just not going to happen without using a weapon most likely. Now they'll feel me lol. They'll know I was there. But I'd lose in a lot of circumstances with a man. I'm never going to be so cocky to think I wouldn't. That's reality.

But yes - you're the only woman I've ever seen say that you have never thought that a man may hurt or kill you. Why do you think almost all women chose the bear?

Of course it isn't all men and with the exception of women who may have been through some seriously terrible trauma that left them with some serious mental Health issues - no one thinks that of all men.

But I promise the thought goes through our minds. Often when we actually ARE safe.

(And a total side note because you felt the need to add that - there is a vastly large difference between trans women and men. Trans women in women's sports is fine because hormone therapy changes their physical attributes that make men physically stronger etc. last I checked they never allow men in women's sports but they did allow trans women before the bigot took over the White House)

 

[Dejected 55]

The man vs bear thing always felt like an exaggeration gone wrong. People see something on the Internet and think it means everyone believes it. It's like surveys. People lie on surveys all the time. They try and give answers they think they are supposed to give OR maybe the opposite of how they really feel because they don't believe it will really be anonymous.

I'm not at all diminishing rape victims here... but I can't really imagine even a rape victim would rather meet a bear in the woods over a man. A bear vs a known rapist? Sure, that's a harder choice... but a bear vs a random man you don't know who could be anyone at all?

There are a lot of rapists and men who abuse. To be sure. But in terms of the actual population? It's still a very low percentage of men who commit these horrendous crimes. There's a sizeable chunk of horrible/mean men who will hurt you, though, just not to the degree of assault or rape or murder... but while a bear might be preferable to a known murder/rapist... is a bear preferable to just a bad guy? Really?

Women hurt men too. Some women will shatter a man to pieces, intentionally even... she'll take everything she can from him and cheat on him in the process. But am I afraid every woman out there will do that to me? Do I hate all women or want a bear instead of a woman? No, because that would be silly. All women aren't awful. I don't even think most women are awful.

I do think enough men and women are awful, maybe even dangerous, that we should all be careful. Except, here's the rub... All the women who say they would choose the bear and all those misogynistic men who claim to be incels? Tell me those men and women don't want to love and be loved, and aren't hurting because they don't feel that love, and wouldn't do anything to experience that kind of love if they could. The bear would go out the window if you could find the right man or woman to pair up with those traumatized people who think they hate all men or women. Trust me on that.

Extremism never helped anyone.