CO and hydroxide: Anyone good at chemistry on here?

[white_car]

Hey there.

So, like many people on this website I guess, I used to wait until things became unbearable to come here looking for the way out.

But this time around, I'd like to be prepared, so that when the "next wave" of lucidity and realism comes along, everything will be set already. I'm getting old, I can't be doing this again.

Things can only get even darker for me in the future, and using Carbon Monoxide is the most peaceful and harmless way out in my view. Provided that you take care of not exposing anyone else to that CO of course.

Thinking it would be simple, I just bought the two acids that produce CO when mixed together, having no idea that the resulting gas should then also be "rinsed" with hydroxide to make it breathable.

This hydroxide thing was suggested to me on a previous post I made on here (link). But it looks like this term is for an entire family of substaces, and the user who indicated it then just stopped answering, and I find myself stuck with incomplete information.

So can someone PLEASE, tell me what kind of hydroxide I should get?

It's not like it's the type of thing I can just look up on a search engine, or ask an AI: "Hey chat, what kind of hydroxide should I get to CTB??"... You can imagine the response I'd get.

My goal here is to preserve a modicum of dignity, and use the method I think is the less brutal.

I have to be honest: I'm terrified no one will answer, because this would mean I'd have to go with a more "primitive" method.

Thank you.

 

[dustoff]

Thinking it would be simple, I just bought the two acids that produce CO when mixed together, having no idea that the resulting gas should then also be "rinsed" with hydroxide to make it breathable.

can be mitigated w a gas mask w filters for acidic environments. it'll neutralize the acid vapors in the air but will let CO in. filters are useless for most toxic gases SCBA (oxygen tank and stuff) gear's needed to work in CO/H2S contaminated spaces. i think cleaning the gas from certain formic acid reaction is needed when CO is pumped straight into lungs from nasal cannula. if a person plans just to fill a space around her not lungs by acid mixing the effect of irritating vapors may be quite tolerable

So can someone PLEASE, tell me what kind of hydroxide I should get?

sodium hydroxide. any basic solution will neutralize acids. even baking soda will act on acidic vapors to some degree

 

[white_car]

Many many MANY thanks @dustoff, you're a champ! Thank you!

So if I get this right, you're saying that if the gas is released in the room, I don't even really need the hydroxide? That's great news, that's just what I was going to to!

The info about sodium hydroxide is still useful though... Just in case things don't work the way I think they would, and I end up having to use a nasal thingy!

Thank you again!
If it's OK with you dustoff, I have only one more question: For a room roughly 3m x 3m x 3m, what are the quantities and ratios I should use for the formic and sulfuric acids?

 

[dustoff]

Many many MANY thanks @dustoff, you're a champ! Thank you!

So if I get this right, you're saying that if the gas is released in the room, I don't even really need the hydroxide? That's great news, that's just what I was going to to!

The info about sodium hydroxide is still useful though... Just in case things don't work the way I think they would, and I end up having to use a nasal thingy!

Thank you again!
If it's OK with you dustoff, I have only one more question: For a room roughly 3m x 3m x 3m, what are the quantities and ratios I should use for the formic and sulfuric acids?

i can't guarantee things. i advice to research H2S aka lime sulfur method first. it literally follows the same principles as 'laboratory' produced CO i.e mixing corrosive chemicals to produce toxic gas. the process results in a very nasty mixture of acid vapors and offensive gas but it'd worked for a lot of ppl and most of them didn't bothered w the gas cleanup. well it might knocked them out too fast before they could feel a thing... personally i have some formic acid too but it's pain in the ass to source coned sulfuric acid in my country without a license so i may ditch this method in favor of hibachi or sn if i won't figure out how to work around that

a room 3x3x3 is 27m^3. ideal gas is 22.4L per mole. mmas of HCOOH is 46g per mole. assume you want to reach 12,000 ppm CO. or 1.2% (death in a minute or less). you'll need 324 liters of the gas for this concentration. or 14.5 moles. which is 667 gramms of HCOOH as for how much H2SO4 is needed i dunno mb ratio 1(HCOOH) to 1.5(H2SO4) will be fine. recheck that with AI i may mess with calculations

 

[white_car]

Thanks!

 

[Intoxicated]

if a person plans just to fill a space around her not lungs by acid mixing the effect of irritating vapors may be quite tolerable

Someone tried to do this and record the process on a video. This is how an article describes it:

Approximately 80 minutes into filming, the man turns off the air conditioning in the vehicle and rolls up all of the windows. He opens the stopcock on the separatory funnel to release formic acid into the bowl of sulfuric acid. He then begins verbally recording readings from the CO meter which is positioned just left of the steering wheel. Approximately 3½ minutes after the acids are combined, the CO concentration inside the vehicle reaches 7000 ppm. No further readings are recorded after this point as the man begins to cough and complain of an unspecified burning sensation. At 5 minutes, the man is observed profusely sweating, possibly due at least in part to increasing temperatures inside the vehicle, and his face begins to turn bright pink. At 7 minutes, pronounced epiphora, rhinorrhea, and labored breathing are observed. Violent coughing and tachypnea continue until the man appears to lose consciousness 11 minutes after the acids were mixed.

Suicidal Carbon Monoxide Poisoning by Formic and Sulfuric Acids - PMC

In 1987, a case report was published in the German journal Archiv für Kriminologie describing an apparently novel method of suicide in which the decedent produced a lethal amount of carbon monoxide by mixing formic acid and sulfuric acid. This ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Maybe if HCOONa is used instead of HCOOH, the amount of HCOOH vapors won't be so huge, but this assumption would need testing before the actual CTB attempt.

 

[white_car]

Maybe if HCOONa is used instead of HCOOH, the amount of HCOOH vapors won't be so huge, but this assumption would need testing before the actual CTB attempt.

Sorry if this is a silly question, but I'm really bad at chemistry... Does this mean the rinsing part will be necessary then?

 

[Intoxicated]

Sorry if this is a silly question, but I'm really bad at chemistry... Does this mean the rinsing part will be necessary then?

You said that you bought two acids. Based on the linked thread, I presume that one of them is formic acid (CO can also be produced out of oxalic acid or citric acid, but those were not mentioned). Have you tried to open the bottle with HCOOH and estimate its smell from a distance? I think, this should give you some understanding of what you're going to deal with.

 

[dustoff]

Someone tried to do this and record the process on a video. This is how an article describes it:

Approximately 80 minutes into filming, the man turns off the air conditioning in the vehicle and rolls up all of the windows. He opens the stopcock on the separatory funnel to release formic acid into the bowl of sulfuric acid. He then begins verbally recording readings from the CO meter which is positioned just left of the steering wheel. Approximately 3½ minutes after the acids are combined, the CO concentration inside the vehicle reaches 7000 ppm. No further readings are recorded after this point as the man begins to cough and complain of an unspecified burning sensation. At 5 minutes, the man is observed profusely sweating, possibly due at least in part to increasing temperatures inside the vehicle, and his face begins to turn bright pink. At 7 minutes, pronounced epiphora, rhinorrhea, and labored breathing are observed. Violent coughing and tachypnea continue until the man appears to lose consciousness 11 minutes after the acids were mixed.

Suicidal Carbon Monoxide Poisoning by Formic and Sulfuric Acids - PMC

In 1987, a case report was published in the German journal Archiv für Kriminologie describing an apparently novel method of suicide in which the decedent produced a lethal amount of carbon monoxide by mixing formic acid and sulfuric acid. This ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Maybe if HCOONa is used instead of HCOOH, the amount of HCOOH vapors won't be so huge, but this assumption would need testing before the actual CTB attempt.

the man in this paper had the guts to rawdog that w/o eye protection so it's less of a problem for a really resolved person. i think using a different dehydrating agent may have a different result becoz h2so4 vapors literally melt eyes and lungs. hcooh is still pungent on its own on par w acetic which is very unpleasant to spill in the kitchen

 

[white_car]

From

You said that you bought two acids. Based on the linked thread, I presume that one of them is formic acid (CO can also be produced out of oxalic acid or citric acid, but those were not mentioned). Have you tried to open the bottle with HCOOH and estimate its smell from a distance? I think, this should give you some understanding of what you're going to deal with.

Hi there... I bought formic acid, and I plan on evaporating the water out of my old car battery, down to 30 percent of its current volume, to get the right concentration of sulfuric acid, as you cannot buy it in stores where I live. But no, I have to say I haven't smelled the formic acid.

 

[dustoff]

From

Hi there... I bought formic acid, and I plan on evaporating the water out of my old car battery, down to 30 percent of its current volume, to get the right concentration of sulfuric acid, as you cannot buy it in stores where I live. But no, I have to say I haven't smelled the formic acid.

my advice use specialized crucibles for that. non laboratory glass will shatter on flame and most metal containers will be corroded inside out by the acid. the both will end in the leak of coned h2so4 onto stove which will turn it into a pile of rust

 

[white_car]

Hey guys...

Thank you for the responses... The path is quite obvious to me now: I just have to get one of those masks that dustoff is talking about (plus eye protection), and then mix the acids in my car, instead of my room. The smaller volume would make the process more efficient. An added benefit is that I can do it in a rather remote area.

But I'm not sure if I should get a mask for the formic acid, or one for the sulfuric acid... No idea which one is more prevalent in the resulting CO. Maybe there are model references that work for both?

I have to say, if this anti acid mask thing works, it would make the process much easier!

my advice use specialized crucibles for that. non laboratory glass will shatter on flame and most metal containers will be corroded inside out by the acid. the both will end in the leak of coned h2so4 onto stove which will turn it into a pile of rust

I got a chemistry kit a while back, when I first heard about this method. But it is tiny, so I was thinking I'd use the glass pot from my coffee maker (on an electric cooktop, low temp) to remove the water from the sulfuric acid. I think it would work, no?

 

[dustoff]

I got a chemistry kit a while back, when I first heard about this method. But it is tiny, so I was thinking I'd use the glass pot from my coffee maker to remove the water from the sulfuric acid. I think it would work, no?

i successfully coned h2so4 in a porcelain crucible to the degree it could char a matchstick. crucibles volume was too small to evaporate good amounts of battery acid. id need to spend a weeks just to get a liter or so. i tried the same w a glass mug and it cracked at the bottom and leaked acid turned my portable stove into rusty goo. non pyrex glass and metals are big no no i think.

https://storage.googleapis.com/dfbiaxsqhagzje/gas-mask-filter-color-codes.html - yellow filters are for acidic vapors

 

[white_car]

i successfully coned h2so4 in a porcelain crucible to the degree it could char a matchstick. crucibles volume was too small to evaporate good amounts of battery acid. id need to spend a weeks just to get a liter or so. i tried the same w a glass mug and it cracked at the bottom and leaked acid turned my portable stove into rusty goo. non pyrex glass and metals are big no no i think.

https://storage.googleapis.com/dfbiaxsqhagzje/gas-mask-filter-color-codes.html - yellow filters are for acidic vapors

OK, yellow filters it is then, thank you. But these look like very "advanced" masks, I hope they're easily accessible in stores, without the seller being too nosy!

Also, I don't know what "coned" means in this context. But I'm guessing if I keep the temp very low on my electric cooktop, it won't break the glass pot.

Thanks again, this is all very useful!

 

[dustoff]

OK, yellow filters it is then, thank you. But these look like very "advanced" masks, I hope they're easily accessible in stores, without the seller being too nosy!

Also, I don't know what "coned" means in this context. But I'm guessing if I keep the temp very low on my electric cooktop, it won't break the glass pot.

Thanks again, this is all very useful!

coned = concentrated. just abbreviation

 

[Intoxicated]

i think using a different dehydrating agent may have a different result becoz h2so4 vapors literally melt eyes and lungs. hcooh is still pungent on its own on par w acetic which is very unpleasant to spill in the kitchen

The volatility of sulfuric acid is negligible in comparison to the volatility of formic acid at the temperatures the reaction between the two is conducted.

 

[white_car]

The volatility of sulfuric acid is negligible in comparison to the volatility of formic acid at the temperatures the reaction between the two is conducted.

Good to know, but getting a yellow filter would work for both anyway if I understand, right?