Carbon monoxide vs nitrogen

[homeboundcripple]

anyone else favour carbon monoxide via charcoal tent over nitrogen with exit bag?

 

[Praestat_Mori]

I would prefer CO bc I don't wanna die with a mask/hood on my face.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

The hood, or even an exit bag, wouldn't be as bad as a mask, I think, for inert gas. But, I don't like some of the stories from witnesses to executions that have happened recently here in the states. It's been reported that the subjects have taken 20 minutes, maybe more, to reach unconsciousness, all the while their bodies flailing wildly about and convulsing.

CO seems to indicate a quick road to unconsciousness, as long as the level is high enough. I like the "promise" of that. I don't like the idea of suffering, or being consciously aware of suffering, for any period of time. I think, and HOPE, that CO will emulate, as closely as possible, anyway, a death that occurs while sleeping.

 

[homeboundcripple]

The hood, or even an exit bag, wouldn't be as bad as a mask, I think, for inert gas. But, I don't like some of the stories from witnesses to executions that have happened recently here in the states. It's been reported that the subjects have taken 20 minutes, maybe more, to reach unconsciousness, all the while their bodies flailing wildly about and convulsing.

CO seems to indicate a quick road to unconsciousness, as long as the level is high enough. I like the "promise" of that. I don't like the idea of suffering, or being consciously aware of suffering, for any period of time. I think, and HOPE, that CO will emulate, as closely as possible, anyway, a death that occurs while sleeping.

If one was able to get hold of an 1970s 1980s car would you favour that over charcoal?

 

[Forveleth]

The hood, or even an exit bag, wouldn't be as bad as a mask, I think, for inert gas. But, I don't like some of the stories from witnesses to executions that have happened recently here in the states. It's been reported that the subjects have taken 20 minutes, maybe more, to reach unconsciousness, all the while their bodies flailing wildly about and convulsing.

Part of this problem is that they fight it. The sentenced person holds their breath or they try to thrash about because they don't want to die. I think this would be much more peaceful of you are going into it willingly. If I were going to try this method I would actually get something like a CPAP mask instead of trying to put a bag over my head.

You also have to remember these are prisons. They don't give a shit about giving somebody a peaceful death. They probably don't have the right equipment, setup, training, and knowledge to handle it appropriately.

 

[Intoxicated]

But, I don't like some of the stories from witnesses to executions that have happened recently here in the states. It's been reported that the subjects have taken 20 minutes, maybe more, to reach unconsciousness, all the while their bodies flailing wildly about and convulsing.

It would be very interesting to see reports of witnesses to executions performed via CO poisoning where the lethal gas would be produced using the amateur charcoal method presented on this forum.

CO seems to indicate a quick road to unconsciousness, as long as the level is high enough. I like the "promise" of that.

And what level exactly is high enough? 12800 ppm doesn't really look like a fully trustworthy value, because it looks rather like an estimation (16 x 800 ppm) than an empirical data that would be obtained by direct measurements of the CO concentration in real cases of exposure to this gas. There is way more easily searchable empirical data on how H2S, N2, or even CO2 work depending on their measured concentration or the concentration of residual oxygen than similar info on how CO acts.

It's very likely that you can induce unconsciousness quickly via making the concentration of CO as high as 50000 - 100000 ppm or above via some advanced methods (like decomposition of citric acid by sulfuric acid with further direct administration of the gas instead of allowing dissipation of CO in a big space), but the charcoal method plain sucks at producing CO at concentrations that would leave no room for concerns about their good efficacy.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Part of this problem is that they fight it. The sentence person holds their breath or they try to thrash her out because they don't want to die. I think this would be much more peaceful of you are going into it willingly. If I were going to try this method I would actually get something like a CPAP mask instead of trying to put a bag over my head.

You also have to remember these are prisons. They don't give a shit about giving somebody a peaceful death. They probably don't have the right equipment, setup, training, and knowledge to handle it appropriately.

I would expect the same reaction from "us", non prisoners. This is the reason Vizzy secured his hands and legs. Well, there are laws, at least here in the US, against cruel and unusual punishment. It's just a slow process to get an execution method banned under that guideline and it will take more than one attempt in the courts, coming at it from different ways, before that happens, if it does.

If one was able to get hold of an 1970s 1980s car would you favour that over charcoal?

Still no. I know it was the go-to way back then, and quite effective, also, but I, myself, have breathed-in a lot of exhaust fumes working on cars over the years, and it is anything other than pleasant.

 

[homeboundcripple]

I would expect the same reaction from "us", non prisoners. This is the reason Vizzy secured his hands and legs. Well, there are laws, at least here in the US, against cruel and unusual punishment. It's just a slow process to get an execution method banned under that guideline and it will take more than one attempt in the courts, coming at it from different ways, before that happens, if it does.

Still no. I know it was the go-to way back then, and quite effective, also, but I, myself, have breathed-in a lot of exhaust fumes working on cars over the years, and it is anything other than pleasant.

Thanks for your replies lock n loaded, much appreciated

 

[Intoxicated]

Spoiler: "Observation of Two Suicides by Helium Inhalation in a Prefilled Environment" by Russel D. Ogden, 2010

Case 1
The decedent was 65 years old. Her career as a registered nurse ended at age 55 when she experienced the first of several strokes that contributed to decline in health, memory, and sensory perceptions. She characterized these as "small strokes but with very big consequences." At age 62 she had a heart attack. The decedent was single, childless, and lived independently. She could not tolerate the possibility of more strokes and institutional care.
...
Considering the time of the first breath inside the helium environment as 0 seconds, the observations are as follows: loss of consciousness at 10 seconds (about 3 breaths); breathing then accelerated for about 40 seconds. At 1:00 the heart rate had accelerated to 114 and SPO2 dropped to 39%. At about 2:00 breathing had stopped, the oximeter could not fix on a heart rate and SPO2 was 37%. At 3:00 the oximeter was still not measuring any heart rate and SPO2 was 34%, which is the minimum range for the device. At 3:45 the jaw fell slack and the tongue extended. Although breathing had ceased after 2 minutes there were 4 terminal gasps at 4:00, 4:45, 6:40, and 8:36. At no point in the dying process was there any extension or contraction reflex of the arms or legs.

Case 2
The decedent was 70 years old and since 1979 had suffered with myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME). Health decline was such that nearly all of her physical activity was oriented to basic survival needs. The decedent was divorced, childless, and lived independently, but with weekly home support service. She participated in Internet support groups for ME, primarily to lend support to younger sufferers of the illness. The decedent believed that most ME patients could make adaptations to enjoy some quality of life, but that after more than 25 years with the disease she believed that her better health was irretrievably lost.
...
Considering the time of the first breath inside the helium environment as 0 seconds, the following was observed: loss of consciousness at about 12 seconds followed by accelerated respiration continuing to about 55 seconds; at around 40 seconds there were reflexes in the right arm and in both legs. The reflex in the right arm was a single, slow contraction at the elbow. The extension reflex in the legs lasted approximately 15 to 20 seconds.

At 1:44 there was a loud gurgling expiratory breath, possibly due to carbon dioxide escaping (from the 2 glasses of sparkling wine consumed earlier). At this time muscle tone relaxed and the head fell slightly to the right into a final resting position (Fig. 6). Very faint gasps occurred at 3:32, 4:26, and 4:55; the tongue distended at 4:55; further faint gasps occurred at 5:15, 5:47, 6:11, 6:36, and 6:46; barely perceptible muscular twitching of the right cheek took place from about 6:50 to 7:05; at 7:25 a hardly audible snort of the sinus replaced the faint oral gasping; further faint sinus snorts occurred at 7:46, 8:29, 8:51, 9:46, and 11:11, after which all visible respiratory movement stopped.

Source: https://www.tesble.com/10.1097/PAF.0b013e3181d749d7

Spoiler: "On the physiology of asphyxia and on the anaesthetic action of pure nitrogen" by George Johnson, 1891

I have elsewhere stated that the phenomena which result from the inhalation of nitrous oxide as an anaesthetic by human beings are strictly analogous with those observed during the early stages of asphyxia. While some writers maintain that the anaesthetic action of nitrous oxide is due to its preventing access of free oxygen to the system, others believe that it has a "specific anaesthetic action." It occurred to me that some light might be thrown upon this subject by the administration of pure nitrogen. Accordingly I obtained from the Scotch and Irish Oxygen Company of Glasgow a cylinder containing 100 cubic feet of compressed nitrogen, in which the proportion of oxygen present was only 0.5 per cent. by volume, with 0.3 per cent. of CO₂. As a preliminary trial, Mr. F. W. Braine was good enough to administer this gas in five instances to members of the staff of King's College, who volunteered to submit to the experiments. The result was in each case the production of complete anaesthesia and of general phenomena precisely similar to those observed from the inhalation of nitrous oxide. Encouraged by these results, Mr. Braine felt justified in administering the gas to patients at the Dental Hospital for anaesthetic purposes. Nine patients took the gas. In every case the result was the production of complete anaesthesia, with general phenomena precisely similar to those observed during nitrous oxide inhalation. The pulse was first full and throbbing, then feeble. In the advanced stage the respiration was deep and rapid, and there was lividity of the surface; the pupils were dilated, and there was more or less jactitation of the limbs. The only difference, in the opinion of some of those present, being that the anaesthesia was less rapidly produced, and somewhat less durable, than that from nitrous oxide, though in each case the tooth was extracted without pain.

On a subsequent occasion the same gas was administered by Dr. Frederic Hewitt at the Dental Hospital. As before, nine patients took the gas. The maximum period required to produce anaesthesia was 70 seconds, the minimum 50 seconds, and the mean time 58.3 seconds. In one case two teeth were extracted without pain. In one case only was pain experienced, and in that case, the tooth having been broken up and not extracted, the patient said she felt a "smashing up." Having on several occasions witnessed the administration by Dr. Hewitt of nitrous oxide mixed with 10 per cent. by volume of oxygen, with the result of producing anaesthesia without lividity or jactitation, I determined to try a mixture of nitrogen with a small proportion of oxygen. I therefore obtained from the company above mentioned a cylinder containing forty cubic feet of nitrogen mixed with 3 per cent. by volume of oxygen, and a second cylinder equally charged with a mixture of nitrogen with 5 per cent. by volume of oxygen. These gases were administered by Dr. Hewitt to patients at the Dental Hospital with the following results: - In the case of the 3 per cent. gas, which was given to five patients, the time required to produce anaesthesia varied from 60 to 75 seconds, the average time being 67.5 seconds. In each case the tooth was extracted without pain, the duration of anaesthesia being somewhat longer than with pure nitrogen. In each case there was lividity, dilatation of pupils, and more or less jactitation. On the same day Dr. Hewitt gave nitrogen with 5 per cent. oxygen to four patients. With this mixture the time required for the production of anaesthesia ranged from 75 to 95 seconds, the average being 87.5 seconds. In each case there was complete anaesthesia, during which one patient had three molars extracted, and although she said she "felt the two last," the sensation appears to have been that of a pull, and not of acute pain. In all of these four cases there was slight lividity before the face-piece was removed, but in only one case was there slight jactitation of the limbs. The other three patients were perfectly quiescent.

Source: https://i.sanctioned-suicide.net/im...n_the_anaesthetic_action_of_pure_nitrogen.pdf

I would be glad to see similarly detailed observations regarding the effects from CO poisoning (especially from advocates thinking that CO is better than inert gases).