Being defined by things outside of my control.(my experience growing up orthodox jewish)

[Lou_Charthethird]

i cant fit in to the religious community i grew up in because they were super fucked up and i chose not to be as disgusting as them, but i also cant fit into the outside world due to my background in said religious community. A lot of People in the world are just super antisemtic sadly which sucks to say because thats what i was told growing up as well. Ive been verbally accosted for being jewish, told to "slit my throat and jump off a bridge", ive had to endure all the shit in the media about how awful jewish people are(kanye for example) and overall it just makes me feel sick for being from where im from. People also think that zionist = jewish which just titles me as a piece of shit against my will. Even the people from where i come from think that being jewish expressly means you are a zionist, and ive been bombarded with zionist, anti lgbtq, and ultra right wing propaganda ever since i was born.They are super hateful and bigoted and sheltered me from the outside world so i cant even fit in if i tried. I have no friends and no experience with normal people. Im forced to live with scum who believe bigotry and racism is justified since we are a superior race, and i cant leave if i tried bec the outside world hates me as well. Im stuck with no choice but to die. I never chose to be this way.

Its so satisfying to say that we arent bound by things out of our control, but the truth is that life is a game of luck.

I tried to keep this brief, but its a lot worse than i made it out to be, i just painted with broad strokes.

 

[MrsT-800]

Hiya, good evening. I'm sorry about this... I hear you. I can't offer much than that, since I am Catholic; but I do hear you. It must feel particularly crushing to be the receiver of such harshness, just for existing and believing, mostly within your own group. How sad it is indeed that we cannot simply let others be so long as they are not doing anything wrong.

If it is any consolation, I, myself, and most Catholics, as far as I know – personally, I don't mess with online – greatly admire Jewish people. You were the chosen people, in our minds; and Jesus himself, who we see as God, was Jewish. It's like you're in on all the stuff I had to grow up learning haha. It is a religion rich with tradition and history and culture – and also suffering, sadly; but, I hope that will be consolation also. The Jewish people have endured so much, and their strength is admirable. I wonder about martyrs a lot. It almost seems like to exist, Jewish, is an act of saying, "I don't care what you think, I will be me" – in which case, and in any, please keep living, you are doing well

 

[Lou_Charthethird]

Hiya, good evening. I'm sorry about this... I hear you. I can't offer much than that, since I am Catholic; but I do hear you. It must feel particularly crushing to be the receiver of such harshness, just for existing and believing, mostly within your own group. How sad it is indeed that we cannot simply let others be so long as they are not doing anything wrong.

If it is any consolation, I, myself, and most Catholics, as far as I know – personally, I don't mess with online – greatly admire Jewish people. You were the chosen people, in our minds; and Jesus himself, who we see as God, was Jewish. It's like you're in on all the stuff I had to grow up learning haha. It is a religion rich with tradition and history and culture – and also suffering, sadly; but, I hope that will be consolation also. The Jewish people have endured so much, and their strength is admirable. I wonder about martyrs a lot. It almost seems like to exist, Jewish, is an act of saying, "I don't care what you think, I will be me" – in which case, and in any, please keep living, you are doing well

I dont want to be admired. I dont want to be different because im jewish i just want to be normal. Sorry

 

[rainy.tears]

hey there, I'm so sorry you're going through this. It's horrible that people want to define who you are just because of the group you were born into. I'm sorry you've been subjected to so much hate and antisemitism as well as all the conditioning and propaganda within the community you were born into.

While there is antisemitism in the world, there are also very many people (the vast majority) who don't care that you're Jewish and will recognise you for the unique individual that you are. I really hope you are able to find a way to connect with people outside your community. I don't want to minimise the risk of antisemitism and of course it depends where you live, but the Jewish people I know have all told me that they face very minimal antisemitism in their daily lives. Generally they are able to pass as white and so people only know they are Jewish if they choose to tell them, which gives them the safety to not disclose it in environments where there may be more risk.

There are also lots of Jewish groups who are antizionist and are pro-LGBTQ and leftist (as I'm sure you know) where you could perhaps connect to people who understand the struggles of being brought up in a conservative religious environment.

Do you know the sub-reddit Jews of Conscience? Perhaps you could post there to see if you can find people who live near you or otherwise people online who you can connect with to talk about your experiences. I have a friend who grew up in a strict orthodox Jewish family and now lives outside that community with many friends (he's also gay and dating someone from a Muslim background). I really believe it's possible to get out if you have the right support and opportunities. I really hope you'll be able to do that if it's what you want.

 

[AnonymousCat1]

Oof that's rough. Anti-semitism is so fucked up. Big hugs

 

[Lou_Charthethird]

hey there, I'm so sorry you're going through this. It's horrible that people want to define who you are just because of the group you were born into. I'm sorry you've been subjected to so much hate and antisemitism as well as all the conditioning and propaganda within the community you were born into.

While there is antisemitism in the world, there are also very many people (the vast majority) who don't care that you're Jewish and will recognise you for the unique individual that you are. I really hope you are able to find a way to connect with people outside your community. I don't want to minimise the risk of antisemitism and of course it depends where you live, but the Jewish people I know have all told me that they face very minimal antisemitism in their daily lives. Generally they are able to pass as white and so people only know they are Jewish if they choose to tell them, which gives them the safety to not disclose it in environments where there may be more risk.

There are also lots of Jewish groups who are antizionist and are pro-LGBTQ and leftist (as I'm sure you know) where you could perhaps connect to people who understand the struggles of being brought up in a conservative religious environment.

Do you know the sub-reddit Jews of Conscience? Perhaps you could post there to see if you can find people who live near you or otherwise people online who you can connect with to talk about your experiences. I have a friend who grew up in a strict orthodox Jewish family and now lives outside that community with many friends (he's also gay and dating someone from a Muslim background). I really believe it's possible to get out if you have the right support and opportunities. I really hope you'll be able to do that if it's what you want.

Thanks a lot for the kinda words and advice, it does hurt a lot more bec im still close with my family and im not sure how to move away from them in a easy way. So there are times where i have to appear jewish to the outside world which sucks bec i dont want to be that way.

I havent checked that subreddit out but ive checked out a subreddit called r/exjews which had been helpful in connecting with other people who suffered from the same stuff i went through. Its just hard to commit to leaving this place and my family. Its the right decision and the only decision but it doesnt make it any easier or less nuanced than it is.

I just feel like people havent been so sensitive to antisemitism due to the wars in the middle east. They feel its too convaluted and dont understand that being jewish≠zionist (even if where i come from, it does)

It just feels like im in the worst of both worlds. Like i cant fully be a normal person and i cant(and wont) fully be a jewish person. Some people are able to be prideful in their culture and background and ethnicity but im just ashamed of the hatred that mine gives out AND receives.

 

[rainy.tears]

yeah, unfortunately Zionists around the world (many of them not Jews) have worked very hard to present anti Zionism as antisemitism and they have devalued the term by calling anyone who criticises Israel or calls for a free Palestine as antisemitic. This has taken away focus from the real forms of antisemitism which exist, including sometimes inside the pro-Palestine movement.

Would your family stop speaking to you if you moved outside the community? You say you can't be a normal person but you already are a normal person. Many, many people experience racism (and other forms of discrimination) and they are still normal people. The most messed up people are the ones who want to tell other people what is and isn't normal.

Hopefully with time you will be able to get a new perspective on what it is to be Jewish and will be able to develop your own sense of identity around it. One that aligns with your values and who you want to be. I think that will probably only be possible when you have a bit of distance from the community you grew up in and are able to develop your own independent sense of self. Hopefully connecting with other Jews who share your values will be helpful for this.

I'm not Jewish but I am queer and trans so I have some experience of growing up with some shame and self-loathing for being gay and "too feminine". As I grew older, I was able to develop a lot of pride in who I am. For me, the fact I don't fit into mainstream heteronormative is a good thing because many of the ways that mainstream society operates is very messed up. That's why I hope that one day you'll be able to find your own path and a love for your own identity. Anyone who thinks you are lesser because of your ethnicity or religion has been brainwashed by racism and their opinion is worthless. Being Jewish is just one part of who you are and it's up to you to decide how important that part is and how it relates to the rest of your identity.

I know it feels like the situation is impossible right now but I really hope that in time and with some support from other people who may have similar experiences you can find a way to navigate it and build a life that feels right for you. If it means being estranged from your family and community then that could be extremely painful, but you wouldn't be the first person to survive through that and hopefully having friends who have done the same will give you strength and a space where you can feel understood by other people.

What do you think the main obstacles to moving away from your family are? If you want to share more details about your situation, I'm listening and want to help as much as I can (though I don't have direct experience of a similar situation) but I understand if you prefer not to share.

 

[Lou_Charthethird]

yeah, unfortunately Zionists around the world (many of them not Jews) have worked very hard to present anti Zionism as antisemitism and they have devalued the term by calling anyone who criticises Israel or calls for a free Palestine as antisemitic. This has taken away focus from the real forms of antisemitism which exist, including sometimes inside the pro-Palestine movement.

Would your family stop speaking to you if you moved outside the community? You say you can't be a normal person but you already are a normal person. Many, many people experience racism (and other forms of discrimination) and they are still normal people. The most messed up people are the ones who want to tell other people what is and isn't normal.

Hopefully with time you will be able to get a new perspective on what it is to be Jewish and will be able to develop your own sense of identity around it. One that aligns with your values and who you want to be. I think that will probably only be possible when you have a bit of distance from the community you grew up in and are able to develop your own independent sense of self. Hopefully connecting with other Jews who share your values will be helpful for this.

I'm not Jewish but I am queer and trans so I have some experience of growing up with some shame and self-loathing for being gay and "too feminine". As I grew older, I was able to develop a lot of pride in who I am. For me, the fact I don't fit into mainstream heteronormative is a good thing because many of the ways that mainstream society operates is very messed up. That's why I hope that one day you'll be able to find your own path and a love for your own identity. Anyone who thinks you are lesser because of your ethnicity or religion has been brainwashed by racism and their opinion is worthless. Being Jewish is just one part of who you are and it's up to you to decide how important that part is and how it relates to the rest of your identity.

I know it feels like the situation is impossible right now but I really hope that in time and with some support from other people who may have similar experiences you can find a way to navigate it and build a life that feels right for you. If it means being estranged from your family and community then that could be extremely painful, but you wouldn't be the first person to survive through that and hopefully having friends who have done the same will give you strength and a space where you can feel understood by other people.

What do you think the main obstacles to moving away from your family are? If you want to share more details about your situation, I'm listening and want to help as much as I can (though I don't have direct experience of a similar situation) but I understand if you prefer not to share.

Thanks a lot for the encouragement it means a lot even if you dont have that direct connection to this type of indoctrination, it still means a lot that we both dont fit into that social norm in our own ways so it helps me know im not fully alone(which sometimes is the most we can offer to one another)

I know leaving my family is the best move, they are VERY shitty; racist, queerphobic, and believe in racial superiority, they dont have any real room to change it seems. If i were to express myself wholly, they would definitely not talk to me and hate me.they are super obsessed with controlling me.

I think im just afraid that i wont be able to fit in to normal society honestly. I never was around normal people for an extended amount of time so i feel like my sheltered background is going to hinder my ability to make friends and fit in. I just cant understand social cues since what is normal for the outside isnt normal for how it is here. People just talk a certain way here, its hard to explain. Its like a totally different world on the outside.

I am going to college soon so my ability to fitting in might grow and my confidence in my expression may grow as well. But im still going to be in contact with my family. Its just so hard for me to commit to living in the outside world and cutting them off because theres no guarantee i can survive in that outside world. I think if i leave, my mental problems could maybe have some time to heal, but its something i scared out of mind of actually doing.

Im sorry if it seems like im laying it all on you i know its not your job to sort this out for me so i hope you dont feel like that

 

[notreallybored]

ב''ה,

Being kinda trite here but study more Torah.

The "pro-LGBT whatever" stuff just being a twist so that everyone can deride you for being off the derech and, y'know, bill you to get back on or cheer on your suffering until your belongings become theirs is a bummer, but do beware of the underlying motivations of those pretending stuff G-d doesn't let be okay is okay.

It's a mess but everything else is antisemitic, what a world.

[Second post that, despite others commenting since, the forum tacked on to my original there:]

ב''ה,

Just because it is absurd divine comedy and I feel like pointing at some of the wacky truths of G-d's system:

The LGBT stuff of course only applies to males, aside from the general preference for marriage contracts and natural increased risk of speedrunning catching every STD if doing something else, as much as if you want to get weird there's still the sitting through endless munches and brunches side of the getting freaky scene, if that'll even protect from the whole Pulse Nightclub side of not necessarily Jewish religious fervor or someone getting tweaked and thinking it'll be fun to share a needle up their sleeve etc.

Meanwhile back in "whatever the actual operation of what G-d left us for Torah is doing," y'know, ladies are understandably bent that the sin only lasts 4 generations promise apparently doesn't undo the pain of having a uterus, the take a spa week every month so males aren't at risk of getting a taste for blood thing just somehow pisses everyone off though the rules generally come with 'whoa, why can't we just live like everyone else without rules that make us instantly qualified for the mental hospitals of our own construction?' (until some of the bizarre logic to the law clicks), and what's actually a pretty interesting ancient set of compromises as far as the gender mess (guys get the crazy religious stuff, ladies get time off from that for having to put up with the pain of childbirth) .. somehow pisses everyone off.

But since G-d, like any frat bro from the 1990s, is fine with lesbians, somehow this accelerated the 'why not just be trans, there's a lot of medical billing in that for someone' aspect, where at the end of that line maybe some actually did want that trip and others find out it doesn't change genetic gender and that whole trip may be considered punishable self injury from the religious perspective, is only the absolutely absurd hack to get out of mitzvot if you ignore the genetics of birth etc.

..

Also, separately, there's that whole wild 'we need you to work so you can contribute but you can't carry a telephone to get work' thing depending how and what flavor of Orthodox or "Orthodox" things are getting.

..

I personally have some weird shit and experiences about all that, and the fact that Jewish "pro-LGBT alphabet soup" "support" tends to be even more "how much Adderall will it take to get you to cut what's left of your genitals off?" for guys is.. wild, between the matriarchal fairly natural 'it's nice to have fewer guys telling us what we're commanded to do' attitude from a lot of ladies involved and 'well, if you're queer maybe you're not for this Earth anyway' attitude from males in charge.

And yet between that or just having been born in Israel to put life on the line to preserve the nation's borders and the happiness of anyone made to be happy just doing the generally not bad if obviously pro-natalist life.. a lot comes down to, y'know, the medications to make anyone happy enough with any of this may be kosher while bacon is not and probably clogs your arteries anyway.

..

I don't exactly have a thesis with this aside from a slight amount of grumbling at how trying to merge Harry Potter and Torah because books is books completed the 'everything is either witchcraft or just theater for business reasons' joke of the last twenty years, and one day I woke up to find out everyone vaguely secular had tweaked out on carrying tiki torches or Breaking Bad or 'the world would be better with only one gender' or a million other fractal culture wars absurdities more than ever, while giving a shit about anyone being alive or healthy for any of this unless subscribed to any particular tweaky dream of anyone was an instantaneous casualty.

Well, this has been a fraction of my TED talk, but it also takes like a decade of study to realize that 'huh, aside from half of the rules being the stress of contamination OCD, for straight people in the crazy Middle East we actually had it pretty good where the ladies get to live like princesses and the guys all get to feel like they're holding the sky up with righteous prayer and the occasional mandatory barbecue.' "Grillpilled" if you've seen those memes.