Discussion Why do people deny the importance of physical appearance?

[Alexei_Kirillov]

If you ever try to tell someone that your low self-worth is based on your physical appearance, you will almost certainly get responses along the lines of:

• It's inner beauty that matters, not outer beauty!
• That's just your perception/cognitive distortion, you're beautiful!
• I know x person who isn't conventionally attractive and they have a loving partner and family, or, my x isn't conventionally attractive and I love them anyway!
• Self-worth doesn't come from others' perception of you, but from your own appraisal of your positive attributes (ie. self-love)
• It's confidence and the way you present yourself to the world that makes you attractive, not your appearance

All of this just sounds like cope to me.

Of course, there are some grains of truth in there, like the fact that there genuinely are ugly people who have happy, fulfilled lives surrounded by people who love them. But that doesn't negate in any way the fact that physical appearance matters; it just means that in their case, some combination of lucky circumstances (ex. being born with extreme traits such as high-intelligence, being in the right place at the right time, etc.) made up for their lack of beauty. It might also be true that confidence makes you appear more attractive, but this is relative: if you're starting from a low point, gaining a few points still won't get you to where someone naturally beautiful with low-confidence would be.

And it's absurd to think that a human being, part of a species that is so deeply social to the point where 99.99% of them cannot survive with nothing but their own devices, shouldn't take into consideration the opinion of their peers. There's a limit to that, of course, but for almost the entirety of our history, our peers valuing us highly was literally the difference between life and death -- and, especially for women, beauty is the main (though not the only) value-giver.

Even if the consequences are not so extreme in the modern-day, being ugly will still deeply affect your life, impacting the jobs you do or don't get, the people who do or do not attach themselves to you, the doors that are or aren't open to you, even the way you view the world, because pretty people are generally treated better -- people will automatically assume that a pretty person has other good qualities, whereas an ugly person has to work doubly hard to prove it. Many, especially in the dating world, aren't willing to wait long enough to see the proof. Beauty gets your foot in the door, and allows you to leverage your other qualities.

Bit of a ramble. But anyway, what I'm wondering from you guys is why people have such a hard time accepting this? Is it because I'm genuinely wrong on this count? is it because the reality would be too painful for them? Is it because they don't want to accept that they, too, value people based on their appearance, even if subconsciously?

@Forever Sleep

 

[amerie]

I fucking hate that, there have been literal models who grew up in impoverished hell who had their lives changed all bc of scouts who saw them on the street selling fruit, people overlook the actions of heinous people bc they were attractive, ugly people get snubbed, etc.

People don't want to admit their own biases bc they want to feel better about themselves, I think society will be free if we all admit that we're bigots and have some action plan to change that.

 

[alwaysalone]

If you ever try to tell someone that your low self-worth is based on your physical appearance, you will almost certainly get responses along the lines of:

• It's inner beauty that matters, not outer beauty!
• That's just your perception/cognitive distortion, you're beautiful!
• I know x person who isn't conventionally attractive and they have a loving partner and family, or, my x isn't conventionally attractive and I love them anyway!
• Self-worth doesn't come from others' perception of you, but from your own appraisal of your positive attributes (ie. self-love)
• It's confidence and the way you present yourself to the world that makes you attractive, not your appearance

All of this just sounds like cope to me.

Of course, there are some grains of truth in there, like the fact that there genuinely are ugly people who have happy, fulfilled lives surrounded by people who love them. But that doesn't negate in any way the fact that physical appearance matters; it just means that in their case, some combination of lucky circumstances (ex. being born with extreme traits such as high-intelligence, being in the right place at the right time, etc.) made up for their lack of beauty. It might also be true that confidence makes you appear more attractive, but this is relative: if you're starting from a low point, gaining a few points still won't get you to where someone naturally beautiful with low-confidence would be.

And it's absurd to think that a human being, part of a species that is so deeply social to the point where 99.99% of them cannot survive with nothing but their own devices, shouldn't take into consideration the opinion of their peers. There's a limit to that, of course, but for almost the entirety of our history, our peers valuing us highly was literally the difference between life and death -- and, especially for women, beauty is the main (though not the only) value-giver.

Even if the consequences are not so extreme in the modern-day, being ugly will still deeply affect your life, impacting the jobs you do or don't get, the people who do or do not attach themselves to you, the doors that are or aren't open to you, even the way you view the world, because pretty people are generally treated better -- people will automatically assume that a pretty person has other good qualities, whereas an ugly person has to work doubly hard to prove it. Many, especially in the dating world, aren't willing to wait long enough to see the proof. Beauty gets your foot in the door, and allows you to leverage your other qualities.

Bit of a ramble. But anyway, what I'm wondering from you guys is why people have such a hard time accepting this? Is it because I'm genuinely wrong on this count? is it because the reality would be too painful for them? Is it because they don't want to accept that they, too, value people based on their appearance, even if subconsciously?

@Forever Sleep

Of course it matters but only to an extent. I think that's what a lot of people tend to forget. It sounds like cliches and coping mechanisms because it is sometimes. However, the truth is looks may bring people in (sometimes) but personality makes them stay. I know people hate hearing they're "to young to understand" but the truth is life experiences come through time usually. I myself have been around people in initially thought were ugly, weird, etc... I'm talking about a man who was only 5'4", chubby, glasses and bucked teeth and 20+ yrs my senior. But the longer I spent with him the more physically attracted to him I was or maybe the less I cared about his appearance because we were really good friends. It is so much better to have a great person you can connect with than a hottie who is horrible. I understand this is something most people have to learn on their own and I sound like an old person. ( I am lol) but you did ask. Hahaha

 

[Pluto]

 

[alwaysalone]

View attachment 170056

Yes you are meow meow

 

[wham311]

You're correct.

I was attractive last year and everyone loved me and wanted to be around me.

I am kind of disfigured now and my own family will not look at me. I am ran away from at the dog park. People look pained to talk to me.

It completely changes dating and what you're able to do for work. People who are attractive get treated better

 

[Namelesa]

Definitely being less attractive to most of society will make things more difficult for you as I would say most people do treat people differently cus of appearance. And as someone else said here people don't want to admit their own basis as they would have to confront something about themselves and they would feel bad about that. Tho I think some people can go past this way of having a person's appearance effect how they previce a person but that is only a few people. I will say "That's just your perception/cognitive distortion, you're beautiful!" can be true sometimes as people can have different tastes of what is attractive. My tastes I would say are different from whats conveniently attractive so I sometimes find people who are considered "ugly" to be much more attractive compared to what most of society thinks.

but personality makes them stay. I know people hate hearing they're "to young to understand" but the truth is life experiences come through time usually. I myself have been around people in initially thought were ugly, weird, etc... I'm talking about a man who was only 5'4", chubby, glasses and bucked teeth and 20+ yrs my senior. But the longer I spent with him the more physically attracted to him I was or maybe the less I cared about his appearance because we were really good friends. It is so much better to have a great person you can connect with than a hottie who is horrible. I understand this is something most people have to learn on their own and I sound like an old person. ( I am lol) but you did ask. Hahaha

Yea definitely this to an extent tho. Cus I have the looks to bring people in but I am too much of an emotional burden and do something wrong eventually to have people leave me so looks aren't the only thing you can rely on. (unless maybe in the few cases of the most attractive people?)

 

[Dqope]

If you ever try to tell someone that your low self-worth is based on your physical appearance, you will almost certainly get responses along the lines of:

• It's inner beauty that matters, not outer beauty!
• That's just your perception/cognitive distortion, you're beautiful!
• I know x person who isn't conventionally attractive and they have a loving partner and family, or, my x isn't conventionally attractive and I love them anyway!
• Self-worth doesn't come from others' perception of you, but from your own appraisal of your positive attributes (ie. self-love)
• It's confidence and the way you present yourself to the world that makes you attractive, not your appearance

All of this just sounds like cope to me.

Of course, there are some grains of truth in there, like the fact that there genuinely are ugly people who have happy, fulfilled lives surrounded by people who love them. But that doesn't negate in any way the fact that physical appearance matters; it just means that in their case, some combination of lucky circumstances (ex. being born with extreme traits such as high-intelligence, being in the right place at the right time, etc.) made up for their lack of beauty. It might also be true that confidence makes you appear more attractive, but this is relative: if you're starting from a low point, gaining a few points still won't get you to where someone naturally beautiful with low-confidence would be.

And it's absurd to think that a human being, part of a species that is so deeply social to the point where 99.99% of them cannot survive with nothing but their own devices, shouldn't take into consideration the opinion of their peers. There's a limit to that, of course, but for almost the entirety of our history, our peers valuing us highly was literally the difference between life and death -- and, especially for women, beauty is the main (though not the only) value-giver.

Even if the consequences are not so extreme in the modern-day, being ugly will still deeply affect your life, impacting the jobs you do or don't get, the people who do or do not attach themselves to you, the doors that are or aren't open to you, even the way you view the world, because pretty people are generally treated better -- people will automatically assume that a pretty person has other good qualities, whereas an ugly person has to work doubly hard to prove it. Many, especially in the dating world, aren't willing to wait long enough to see the proof. Beauty gets your foot in the door, and allows you to leverage your other qualities.

Bit of a ramble. But anyway, what I'm wondering from you guys is why people have such a hard time accepting this? Is it because I'm genuinely wrong on this count? is it because the reality would be too painful for them? Is it because they don't want to accept that they, too, value people based on their appearance, even if subconsciously?

@Forever Sleep

You should check out this channel, its very good on the topic of this.

He always says something funny that's true and has good quotes but one thing that he said that comes to mind after reading your message is:

"I think all men have felt the blackpill but most just cant put their finger on it"

Rehab Room

glorified clown, #1 oofy-doofy, mstowmaxxed

www.youtube.com

 

[BlueLock]

There are other qualities people value, but yeah looks can be a part of how a person is judged. Emphasis on part. Idk you or what you want out of life (a partner it sounds like?) but this line of talk is concerning. And it seems like youre already sure that looks are the only things that matter and that anyone disagreeing is not only lying to you but to themselves. I understand your pain, and there's some truth to this but honestly this kinda sounds a bit like something right out of a looksmaxxing forum where everyone is giving eachother body dysmorphia and encouraging people to become angry redpilled incels. This mindset isn't any more real than the cherrypicked examples you gave, one is overly positive and the other is overly negative. Plenty of people here will validate you for thinking this but that's bc were in an echochamber of unhappy people, not because the average person thinks like this. Most people are average and women's (and men's) standards aren't as high as you think. You can focus on uncanny valley models who apparently have perfect jaw dimensions, and the 80/20 rule all you want but it doesn't line up to reality. I've seen a lot of fat/short/ugly guys date attarctive women and you know how they do it? They make them happy not through mewing but bc they have good personalities. Looks can get your foot in the door but it really is a personality that makes people stay. And yeah depending on the job looks sometimes wil help or hurt you but so does other arbitrary bullshit like race, age, and gender.

 

[Aergia]

I suspect most people wouldn't disagree that physical attractiveness matters, but they'd disagree that it should (significantly) inform your sense of self-worth. That's probably my stance. I think worth in general can only be context-dependent, not innate, so the whole "self-love" thing doesn't appeal either. But I guess that raises the next point—

it just means that in their case, some combination of lucky circumstances (ex. being born with extreme traits such as high-intelligence, being in the right place at the right time, etc.) made up for their lack of beauty

Could it not be phrased in a different way too? eg. "If you're pretty enough you can make up for being stupid/uncharismatic." Like, naturally all of these traits factor into individual success—but I guess the question is which ones have the most weight. If you could measure conventional attractiveness (derived from say, measures of facial proportions, sexual dimorphism etc.—or from getting a bunch of people to rate each other, or something) do you think it would be as a good a predictor for individual success as, say, IQ is? Or, conscientiousness from the Big 5? Or do you think it just matters more within a social context because it's more visible? Because greater visibility doesn't mean the outcomes are going to be any more significant or longer-lasting. I would guess the opposite.

 

[alwaysalone]

I also want to say what is attractive and what is not even from just looks alone is totally subjective. My sister and I have completely different tastes. I have never found any of her boyfriends attractive.

 

[Life'sA6itch]

Because denying/lying about anything is usually far easier than admitting and dealing with the truth. Maybe they want to spare others feelings, maybe they don't want to discuss why they treat some people badly or they don't want to admit the this is a looks based world where SO MANY THINGS WILL GO TERRIBLY FOR YOU if others consider you ugly. It has even been proven time and again that "ugly" people are paid less than "average" and "beautiful" people.

 

[pollux]

Pretty much no one does, but "ur ugly kys" isn't particularly actionable advice. So people try to be nice and give you something at least.

As an aside, this is immediately obvious. It only sounds like cope or lies to people who can't bother to even try and see something from other's people perspective. It isn't different from talent or intelligence or wealth/class or any other thing, it's just that it's the harder one to fake. No one really enjoys it, they at most delude themselves into thinking they're the top dog, but by God I do know that there's always a bigger fish and you will be at the receiving end one day.

So when people say that it's partly for themselves too. It's a harsh world out there, and they just tried to make someone's life a little bit better. Due to kindness or annoyance I don't know, but at least they said something positive. Least you can do is say thanks.

 

[flightless bird]

appearance might matter only at first, but it means NOTHING in the long run compared to what someone is like on the inside.

i liked this girl so much for two years, and all i could think about was her, day and night. like, i couldn't even talk to her face to face because my heart was pounding. then one day i met her through a mutual friend, and we went for a drink. the way she acted at that table literally made me wanna puke, and that's when i realized how clueless i'd been about myself. after that night, i never wanted to see her again. and i didn't. that's when it hit me; it's all about what a person is made of. just like a musical instrument. a shitty instrument made of cheap plywood, no matter how good it looks, will sound like shit.

 

[wham311]

People will be nice to you when you tell them youre ugly and then pretend lie you're not. It drivers you crazy at first before you realize they're just boosting your confidence and looking for any redeeming physical quality about you to find you ok on.

 

[enduringwinter]

Because pple got bigger fish to fry? How my personality and life turned out are such big problems that idgaf

 

[Apathy79]

So all these beauty routines almost everyone does, what are they all for? Most of the losing weight, diet and exercise stuff, sculpting certain features in the gym? Of course it matters. But it matters more to some than others, both in personal terms and their preferences, and it's just one of a host of factors. All of these things are scaled. If you could go from a 2 to a 9 in looks, almost everyone's life would improve. But same for a 2 to a 9 in wealth, IQ, being surrounded with the right people, output generated, love received, physical and mental health, etc. People tend to focus on their weakest link and not realise they wouldn't necessarily trade with someone who has it in spades but is deficient in another key area they take for granted.

Physical appearance matters. But linking your entire self worth to physical appearance is way too extreme. Just like it would be linking it to your wealth, family, status, IQ, whatever. It's one cog in the wheel.

 

[wham311]

Linked all my self worth to physical appearance and lost it all and now I have nothing because I didn't develop anything else.

Just saying

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think there's a variety of reasons people push back on this issue. I myself have complained and received push back and I believe it was for different reasons. Not all of them were intended to be dismissive though.

I once told my Grandma that I was too embarassed of my (fat) body to go swimming. In that case- the push back was because I was allowing fear to prevent me from doing things. She argued that there were much bigger people than me, people wouldn't see me so much in the water and, very few would even care. Plus, obviously- exercise would help.

So, I think that's one reason. If we are putting off doing stuff because we are pre-emptively worrying about our looks then, to an extent, that can become debilitating. If the people trying to reassure us, love us, obviously they don't want to see us living a stunted life because we are so hung up on our looks.

In that case- I think it depends where we are on the journey. Are we being mocked and rejected everywhere we go? There's likely to have been bullying somewhere along the way but, are we truly going to get rejected absolutely everywhere? Ok, we won't likely get a modelling job. Other jobs are open though. Few venues are likely to turn down your money because you're too ugly to enter. Is it truly that our looks are holding us back or, is fear of not being fully accepted holding us back? The second does need to be challenged. Otherwise, we can let it taint and rule our lives. (As I have.)

Similarly, dysphoria can become debilitating. Is the person as horrendously ugly as they believe themselves to be? I don't really know the best way to treat dysphoria but, pandering to it may not be the best way.

My Grandma also told me once that being so concerned with my looks- good or bad was vain. In of itself, it's probably not good to become too obsessed with anything in life.

Beauty is somewhat subjective and, we also have to consider who we're talking to. Are they extremely and naturally beautiful? If they also struggle with certain things yet, they have a partner- they may get irritated with someone who insists that their looks are prohibitating that. It could be other reasons too.

How much effort have they made to meet someone? How much effort have they put into what they have got? Obviously someone who puts in loads of effort- healthy diet, good figure, takes care of their looks, made an effort to socialise- may not have huge sympathy for someone (like me) who barely ever leaves the house and eats junk food blaming everything on poor looks. So- some of it is- have you tried to meet someone?

Also, I think a lot of us don't like to think of ourselves as shallow. We maybe don't want to admit that looks are important. So, we downplay it.

 

[PI3.14]

Ig it makes people uncomfortable to admit so.

Although beauty is extremely important, it seems to me that it's not the only factor. I've seen people who are deemed not conventionally attractive being with a partner that's extremely attractive and I've seen this enough to realize that beauty is part of the equation.

However, you need to realize that beauty might be "all the equation" on dating apps. Dating apps are design in a way that makes people pick a potential date based on beauty first and their profile second. Real life is different though.

I personally fucked up many chances of dating in the past. Ladies asking me my number or straight request to go out. Mind you, I'm below average in looks lol. I'm short at 5'5 or about 165cm. A bit overweight and I definitely look younger than my age, i.e. not having a manly looks.

I have social anxiety and I also have an extremely bad self image. If someone says they like me, my brain refuses to believe them no matter the times they repeat it.

In fact, even if I ended up in a relationship, I'll probably think that it's about time I get left for someone better.

I personally know a relative who is short, doesn't meet the beauty standards at all, has a history of criminal activity (theft and carrying uncertified gun and being in jail multiple times) and was a trouble maker. Yet, he is now married with kids lol.

I'm not saying beauty doesn't matter, it does...a lot. I wouldn't suffer from BDD if beauty didn't matter. However, there is more that get you in a relationship than your looks.

IMO, being successful and mentally and socially adjusted is extremely important. I unfortunately lack in those areas

 

[derpyderpins]

"That's just your perception/cognitive distortion, you're beautiful!"

While being told you're beautiful/handsome when you don't believe it is annoying, I did want to add as one piece of input that I've noticed over time a lot of people use words like "ugly" to describe themselves when it's as close to objectively not true as possible. There are ugly people, which sucks and I feel bad for them, but a lot of times people who are just more plain/average will put themselves unfairly in that category for not being models. Then there are those who - like your quote suggests - are actually above average but have a distorted cognition.

Appearance definitely matters, but it matters mostly at the ends of the bell curve: ugly - actually ugly - people being treated worse and highly attractive people getting benefits. I think that's one simpler explanation. A 6 isn't having a radically different experience than a 5, and most people are in the 4-7 range.


To add a second theory for thought-provocation's sake: self-perception is at play in multiple ways based on the stance you take.

On one hand, an ugly person may not want to admit they are ugly, because it's a characteristic that you're largely stuck with, which sucks.

On the other hand, beautiful people may not want to admit the benefit because they want to believe their gains were done through character rather than a cosmic gift. It reminds me of celebrities who certainly benefitted from natural skill and some luck who always want to harp on "hard work" as the reason for success. If the success is because of an innate talent they were gifted with, it can't fulfill their esteem needs adequately, not deep down. However, if we're all exactly equal except for how hard we grind (and we all have the same capacity to grind, it's just a matter of your personal commitment,) then suddenly they can feel superior in a spiritual sense as well. (At least, that's the ego's theory.)

 

[Dejected 55]

Physical appearance matters. But not everyone sees the world the same. You don't know how someone else perceives you unless you talk to them and they are honest with you. They might lie.

People will give you compliments if they mean them OR if they want something from you. How do you know the difference?
People will insult you if they are being honest OR if they want to hurt you. How do you know the difference?

I have found lots of women to be really attractive to me, physically and spiritually, while others around me did not see those women as anything special or perhaps even saw them as ugly. I don't care. I have been completely unattracted to women that people around me thought were stunning.

But if the person you want to date thinks you are ugly... then it matters. If the job you want doesn't hire you because the manager thinks you are ugly, then it matters.

 

[tormentedhusk]

Either cope, or to feel better about themselves. Lots of people superficially adopt certain ideas to feel morally superior, because saying/doing/believing/supporting x makes them a "good person".

A common phenomenon among women is them gaslighting other women about their attractiveness, showering those they don't consider attractive with praise and flattery, while doing the opposite for those they think look better, and actively trying to bring them down.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

Maybe there are people that are indeed relatively unconcerned with physical appearance? I mean, I'm not really concerned with how a person looks, as long as they treat me with respect and mutually share affection.

I think this whole physical appearance thing is cultural and learned. We should stop teaching people these things, perhaps?

 

[Grog]

Physical appearance matters to me; I do want to be physically attracted to my partner. But, it's much further down on my list of most-desired attributes/traits in a potential partner. What matters the most to me is how benevolent and beautiful your soul is.

 

[LetMeOut67]

No one wants to admit it cos it exposes how animalistic society and people really are.

 

[wham311]

I used to be very attractive and was treated very well.

People won't even make eye contact with me now.

Good luck surviving this way.

 

[Unbearable Mr. Bear]

I used to be very attractive and was treated very well.

People won't even make eye contact with me now.

Good luck surviving this way.

Maybe you finally see how many people are very superficial? I think that's a win cause it helps separating what's worth your time to what isn't.

 

[Dejected 55]

Most people have some physical preferences for their romantic partner. Most people don't have these same preferences for their friends.

Some people have preferences that are truly their own, i.e. not influenced by what society says or what they think is cool or the "social norm" for appearance.

Most people fall into the trap of believing what is said to be physically attractive IS physically attractive.

Historically we have flipped on some major things over time. Back when it was not common to be well-fed throughout the world, you would find the average person to be thin, perhaps even unhealthily so, while people of prominence, of power, leaders, etc. tended to be overweight. Thus, in such times obese people were seen to be more attractive. Why? Not so much for their actual physical appearance but because of what it meant... it meant such people had wealth and food in abundance and probably power as well. In modern times, though there is a lot of hunger in the world, average people are not starving and many people tilt towards being at least a little overweight... thus, obesity is now seen as over-indulging or lazy... and only wealthy/powerful people take the time to care for their bodies.

Of course, these things do not always equate to reality... but when society dictates a thing, it tends to be followed by the masses. The more we tilt towards one end in reality, the more people get drawn towards the other extreme because it is different and perceived to be "rare."

Similarly... there was a time when tanned people (I'm not talking about naturally dark-skinned people, but light-skinned who tan from the sun exposure) were seen as poor because they must be laborers who work outside all day to get tanned... so they were perceived as less-than... until the wealthy and powerful started wanting to have tans... and then the culture shifted to tanning being a thing only people who had free time after their wealth/power amassing to get tans and people without tans must be working all the time indoors and not able to get play time in the sun. Again, society flips.

If you could freely move from era to era you'd see this more clearly and be able to fit in better perhaps... but these things drag over time. Clothes go in and out of fashion... and for the people always chasing the next big thing, you either don't have your own actual preferences OR you subvert them in favor of fitting in with what society seems to say you should like.

So, if you are a man or woman who finds someone attractive BUT your friends say they are not or society says they are not... do you go with your instincts OR with what everyone else tells you?

I have been attracted more than a couple of times to women that friends would say she was unattractive. I didn't care. I thought she was attractive. That's all that mattered. Additionally, the more I get to know a woman and like her personality, the more everything else about her becomes attractive to me. So, yes, the initial pull is often physical attributes in her face or body or some combination because that is the only thing we know when first meeting someone. But I don't care how pretty she is if I don't know her. Only after getting to know her a little do I care that she is also pretty and do I also realize everything about her is attractive, flaws and all, the more I know her as a person.

If more people acted on these natural impulses of attraction instead of falling in line with society or friends or whatever... I think we could have a happier world with couples that stayed together longer.

 

[wham311]

Maybe you finally see how many people are very superficial? I think that's a win cause it helps separating what's worth your time to what isn't.

It makes me realize how superficial I was. Karma is getting me back in every single way I've ever signed. It continues to punish me because of how superficial I still am, it puts my pain at the forefront