Discussion What is the evolutionary reason behind suicidal thoughts?

[gameplayer]

I often think about this. I get that depression or other mental illnesses aren't agents with goals, but I don't understand what the "point" of having a brain that can generate such thoughts is. If I kill myself, the depression dies along with my brain so what then? You'd think that because survival instinct is found in pretty much all living organisms, such a thought process shouldn't be possible. One thing I thought of is that since a lot of mental illnesses are hereditary, maybe it's a kind of natural selection (ie. someone like me with such shit mental health shouldn't reproduce and pass it on, so nature runs this suicidal ideation scenario to ensure survival of the fittest).

I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts on this, it's a very interesting topic to me and I'm interested in hearing different perspectives.

I often think about this. I get that depression or other mental illnesses aren't agents with goals, but I don't understand what the "point" of having a brain that can generate such thoughts is. If I kill myself, the depression dies along with my brain so what then? You'd think that because survival instinct is found in pretty much all living organisms, such a thought process shouldn't be possible. One thing I thought of is that since a lot of mental illnesses are hereditary, maybe it's a kind of natural selection (ie. someone like me with such shit mental health shouldn't reproduce and pass it on, so nature runs this suicidal ideation scenario to ensure survival of the fittest).

I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts on this, it's a very interesting topic to me and I'm interested in hearing different perspectives.

I don't think there is an evolutionary cause. I think it is just a mode of failure. I think it's just what happens when the normal systems that have been selected for fail because of overwhelming circumstances or stuff like that.

 

[tomame]

generational curses .. and yes, i completely agree with you regarding natural selection and not needing to reproduce

 

[N@te]

I think of it more like an unintended side effect that didn't go badly enough to ruin the entire population and so it just keeps floating around. In biology, there are quite a few things that don't make sense and cause problems but persist simply because it's not bad enough to ruin the species. (as an example, the poor female hyenas who have to give birth)
Additionally, maybe I'm mentioning something unnecessary, but survival of the fittest originally meant that the most well-adapted survive, not the strongest (that is more of a cultural interpretation I think?) and here humans are completely outside the box since we change our environment to suit us instead.
From an evolutionary theory perspective I think I remember it partly being something like - a natural way to deal with individuals who were exiled from the main group and as such will die soon due to predators anyway, but I'm not sure I remember it correctly.

we are not "outside the box" of evolution, and out ancestors, who we got out DNA from, definitely weren't either

I often think about this. I get that depression or other mental illnesses aren't agents with goals, but I don't understand what the "point" of having a brain that can generate such thoughts is. If I kill myself, the depression dies along with my brain so what then? You'd think that because survival instinct is found in pretty much all living organisms, such a thought process shouldn't be possible. One thing I thought of is that since a lot of mental illnesses are hereditary, maybe it's a kind of natural selection (ie. someone like me with such shit mental health shouldn't reproduce and pass it on, so nature runs this suicidal ideation scenario to ensure survival of the fittest).

I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts on this, it's a very interesting topic to me and I'm interested in hearing different perspectives.

it could be more of a byproduct than anything else. Though, I can see why it might be useful evolutionarily. Suppose you were a caveman living with your brother and your son. At some point you get an infection or injury. You survive but are no longer able to hunt, forage, fight etc as effectively as before, and you have to rely on your family's help. In this case, suicide could "relieve the burden" on your brother and your son and make it easier for them to survive and reproduce. Since your brother and your son both share about half of your genes, this is evolutionarily advantageous.

 

[FluffIsJustice]

we are not "outside the box" of evolution, and out ancestors, who we got out DNA from, definitely weren't either

Seems like I didn't explain that well, I didn't mean humans aren't affected by evolution. I meant it strictly in regards to 'having to adjust so the species does not end up all dying from being killed by predators'. There are other species who build stuff like, for example houses, but I don't think the 'level' is quite the same (this also includes the effect on the world itself - no other species has a similar effect of causing global warming). In other words, we don't have any natural predators. It could also be said that we've become the 'top-ranked predator'.
Evolution does affect us, but that is a very, very slow process. (Like if you compare how long humans have existed and how long it's been since the industrial revolution /or even the birth of the internet.)

 

[Intoxicated]

I think even more adults don't understand that wether Death is permanent or not has no answer we do not know if it is permanent or not there is no evidence for God there is no evidence against him either it is not something you can prove or disprove it's a possibility
To try to speak with certainty on a matter so vague and impossible to know is a fools errand the only wise choice is to acknowledge that we have no idea what comes after death

By that logic, you have to acknowledge that you don't know whether you'll meet Godzilla on the street some day. All practically valuable/useful knowledge implies discarding negligible possibilities, which include the possibility of non-permanent death.

 

[doneforlife]

I suppose it's still only a small percentage of the entire population. Plus- some people with depression and ideation still choose to reproduce or- they develop symptoms after becoming parents.

I wonder if most humans have the capacity to develop depression under the right or rather- wrong circumstances. We're living very abnormal lives when you consider our origins.

Zoo animals can exhibit signs of anxiety and depression. We don't diagnose them as being mentally ill though- at least, not initially. We recognise that they are being forced to live in stressful and unnatural environments. So- how much of it really is 'illness' compared to an understandable reaction to our modern environment?

I know what you mean though. I've felt that way about depression. What goal does it serve? Why does it survive in the gene pool? But then- we survive outside of the animal kingdom in a way. We've found 'cheats' to conceive, cheats to evade death.

Whereas the 'weakest' are left to die or are even attacked in the animal kingdom- comparitively speaking, we support 'weak' or ill humans with benefits, healthcare etc. It's almost like we're nurturing ailments in a way. Even when I was a child, there wasn't so much spoken about about mental illness. There would be one or two children with learning difficulties. One or two bullies but, not much was spoken about the causes. It's almost celebrated now.

I've seen YouTube videos where they break down the word: 'depressed' into 'deep rest'. Saying that depression is the way the mind/ body copes with being overloaded. But then- obviously, prolonged isolation probably isn't healthy either. So, maybe what starts out as a healthy coping mechanism goes wrong.

The point being though that depression and ideation isn't necessarily fatal. Especially not with the (relatively) easy availabilty of food, shelter, medicine. So, I suppose it survives long enough for some people to pass it on, through procreation.

I also wonder what our environment is doing to us. I believe they found links with leaded petrol and reduced IQ in former generations. We are breathing and injesting toxins all the time. It wouldn't surprise me if that was affecting our brains/ how we develop in the womb too.

Actually we are looking at it the wrong way. We begin with the thought that evolution creates changes that "favour" the survival. But evolution is directionless and blind. It's mutation in genes. That's just it. If that mutation helps the individual survive they survive, thrive , reproduce..and expand. If that mutation doesn't help , the individual dies. The reason it seems like a "favourable force" is because the individual who died is not alive to tell their story. It in no way indicates that a mutation happens only if it's favourable for existence. There have been many examples where mutations have wiped out species.

 

[sacrilegeofsouls]

By that logic, you have to acknowledge that you don't know whether you'll meet Godzilla on the street some day. All practically valuable/useful knowledge implies discarding negligible possibilities, which include the possibility of non-permanent death.

That's kind of a strawman the difference between the possibility of meeting godzillla and not meeting godzilla is there is a billion facts against godzilla which make it improbable but not impossible
Like for example our atmosphere isn't oxygen rich enough to support such huge organisms anymore unlike the time of the dinosaurs or perhaps the fact that the time required for such a creature to evolve would be very long and past the average human lifespan the sheer amount of biological limitations and condition beyond that works actively against the possibility of meeting godzilla and makes it extremely unlikely not impossible but unlikely enough that its useless to think about Now why don't you tell me what objective evidence you have that makes the possibility of a life after death so impossible because clearly the genius that you are has unlocked the mystery behind conciousness that scientists have been struggling for decades to make sense of or perhaps you've died once and come back I mean I'm open to anything by all means enlighten me about any set of rules or conditions that make life after death a nigh unlikely probability and no life after death a very possible thing surely you must know this or were you just comparing apples to orangutans?

 

[Intoxicated]

Now why don't you tell me what objective evidence you have that makes the possibility of a life after death so impossible

Since this thread is not about afterlife, I wouldn't want to derail it with such offtopic discussions. Here I can only point out that the whole concept of life after death is meaningless unless you define some practically valuable criteria of identity that would determine whether an arbitrarily chosen living subject B is the same as an arbitrarily chosen died subject A. If you take sharing a significant amount of common memories or the same physical body as the traceable criteria of subject's identity (I can't think of anything else that would have practical sense), then you could think about how any of these traceable properties could be transferred from A to B, keeping in mind how much memory depends on brain chemistry and how amnesia can cause serious troubles with self-identification of the person long before biological death of the body.