Suicide pact gone wrong

[Peel_the_Banana]

If this guy survives, regardless of how much brain damage he may or may not have, he's screwed. He will likely be prosecuted for murder. This is why one must ensure their method is near flawless if they choose to have a partner. Sounds like the gun chosen was not powerful enough to do what they hoped.

Can't believe the security at that gun range caught all that on camera and never intervened. Clearly noone was paying attention. I guess suicide at a gun range is still a viable method.

‘Suicide Pact’ at Gun Range Leaves Girlfriend Dead, Boyfriend Hospitalized: Police

Cops said the couple kissed and put their heads against each other before the boyfriend fired the gun against his girlfriend's temple

www.crimeonline.com

 

[Jenjoh2358]

Do they still let you rent firearms at gun ranges?

 

[Peel_the_Banana]

Do they still let you rent firearms at gun ranges?

I'm guessing yes. Otherwise they wouldn't have needed to go to the range? They could've done this some other place. Maybe that was the reason.

 

[ChobaniFlipSmores]

Man, it is a super dick move to kill yourself at a gun range using someone else's property and at the same time compromising their livelihood. It's also very dangerous for the other people at the range who aren't at all involved and could easily cause a lot of mental trauma for anyone else there. SS is a pro-choice site, but using a violent method that's going to negatively impact others who have no involvement as far as the reasoning for suicide is not right. That's why getting hit by a train or jumping from a location where you could injure people below is highly frowned upon.

 

[Seafoam]

Jeez security sucked. I've never been to a gun range that lax. I wish I had a partner to do it with tho.

 

[ChobaniFlipSmores]

Do they still let you rent firearms at gun ranges?

They do at the ranges I've been to recently. The prices to rent a firearm are outrageous sometimes 10%-20% of the cost of the gun brand new so there must be a high profit margin on this. This may depend on the state you live in.

Jeez security sucked. I've never been to a gun range that lax. I wish I had a partner to do it with tho.

Typically there are no staff on the gun ranges I have been to and even for the ranges that have a range officer, all the range officer can really do is kick people out for being unsafe and expect them to comply. There's an assumption that everyone knows what they are doing and will be safe.

 

[ocheeva]

The way they carried it out is a little confusing. So, if i get this straight, they joined their heads side by side, then the boyfriend somehow reached his arm around his girlfriend, aimed the gun at her temple and shot her, hoping to die by the same bullet as it went through her head and into his. The thing is: this would have required the boyfriend to have held the gun in a very awkward manner, right?

 

[Peel_the_Banana]

They do at the ranges I've been to recently. The prices to rent a firearm are outrageous sometimes 10%-20% of the cost of the gun brand new so there must be a high profit margin on this. This may depend on the state you live in.

Typically there are no staff on the gun ranges I have been to and even for the ranges that have a range officer, all the range officer can really do is kick people out for being unsafe and expect them to comply. There's an assumption that everyone knows what they are doing and will be safe.

I wonder what ranges you have been to. The few I have seen have someone watching tge cameras and some type of visual into the shooting area even if it's a partial view. Maybe the ones I've seen were more crowded regularly so there was more active monitoring.

 

[ocheeva]

Man, it is a super dick move to kill yourself at a gun range using someone else's property and at the same time compromising their livelihood. It's also very dangerous for the other people at the range who aren't at all involved and could easily cause a lot of mental trauma for anyone else there. SS is a pro-choice site, but using a violent method that's going to negatively impact others who have no involvement as far as the reasoning for suicide is not right. That's why getting hit by a train or jumping from a location where you could injure people below is highly frowned upon.

I'm not familiar with gun ranges. What else can you do there besides rent a gun and shoot at the targets? Also, why do they exist? Seems so risky, what stops some crazy person from taking the gun and shooting up the entire place?

 

[ChobaniFlipSmores]

The way they carried it out is a little confusing. So, if i get this straight, they joined their heads side by side, then the boyfriend somehow reached his arm around his girlfriend, aimed the gun at her temple and shot her, hoping to die by the same bullet as it went through her head and into his. The thing is: this would have required the boyfriend to have held the gun in a very awkward manner, right?

According to the article "Police said the couple "stood face to face, gave each other a few kisses, and then placed their heads next to each other." Almanzar allegedly then put the gun against Chalas's left temple and fired."

Based on the description given, the answer to if the gun was held in an awkward manner is...it depends. If you assume that they knew what they were doing and lined up there heads correctly, and they knew the best angle for placement and the guy had practiced the angle, it's feasible. However, I don't think they had a clue what they were doing.

1. They used a 9mm firearm and expected it to be effective to go through 2 heads. Yes it is feasible, but probably not a good idea.
2. They rented the gun and therefore likely did not practice the extremely important alignment ahead of time, and bought range ammunition which is less than ideal. Another piece of evidence is that the guy didn't properly chamber the first round.

 

[Peel_the_Banana]

Man, it is a super dick move to kill yourself at a gun range using someone else's property and at the same time compromising their livelihood. It's also very dangerous for the other people at the range who aren't at all involved and could easily cause a lot of mental trauma for anyone else there. SS is a pro-choice site, but using a violent method that's going to negatively impact others who have no involvement as far as the reasoning for suicide is not right. That's why getting hit by a train or jumping from a location where you could injure people below is highly frowned upon.

I dont think the average person committing suicide is worried about that. I've only heard people obsess about stuff like that on SS.

Most who get to this point are acting impulsively. I wouldn't call the person a dick. I would call them a person who was desperately focused on their desires in their final minutes. Maybe no one else has ever considered them or their feelings during their lifetime. Not every person is trying to intentionally be an asshole.

I just dont think some suicidal humans should get special treatment for thinking of every last detail while the human who didnt was only trying to end their pain. Not every person is obsessing and planning every detail of their lives to the bitter end. To think you're better because you do consider every detail is a bit hypocritical.

Someone is always going to be hurt or traumatized regardless. Even if it's just your family/ social circle. One type of trauma is not better than another type.

 

[ChobaniFlipSmores]

I wonder what ranges you have been to. The few I have seen have someone watching tge cameras and some type of visual into the shooting area even if it's a partial view. Maybe the ones I've seen were more crowded regularly so there was more active monitoring.

True, but how long would it take to get someone in there to stop and would the range officer want to get into a physical confrontation with someone with a loaded gun? I think my point is that at any gun range I've been to there's really nothing that prevents a shooter from pointing a gun at themselves or someone else (exception of lane barriers).

 

[Peel_the_Banana]

I'm not familiar with gun ranges. What else can you do there besides rent a gun and shoot at the targets? Also, why do they exist? Seems so risky, what stops some crazy person from taking the gun and shooting up the entire place?

They exist exactly for that reason. There is an entire culture and hobbyist area around gun ownership.

True, but how long would it take to get someone in there to stop and would the range officer want to get into a physical confrontation with someone with a loaded gun? I think my point is that at any gun range I've been to there's really nothing that prevents a shooter from pointing a gun at themselves or someone else (exception of lane barriers).

Agreed.

I was scrutinizing this one more particularly because the kissing would be a red flag for me. They even had enough time to make the first attempt and flinch. In the ranges I've seen there would have been someone immediately calling out the safety issues here.

 

[noname223]

Never wanted a partner when I ctb. I would need to trust the person 100%. Only a 3 close friends would fit. I would probably not ctb with them only if their life would be as fucked as mine.

 

[ChobaniFlipSmores]

I dont think the average person committing suicide is worried about that. I've only heard people obsess about stuff like that on SS.

Most who get to this point are acting impulsively. I wouldn't call the person a dick. I would call them a person who was desperately focused on their desires in their final minutes. Maybe no one else has ever considered them or their feelings during their lifetime. Not every person is trying to intentionally be an asshole.

I just dont think some suicidal humans should get special treatment for thinking of every last detail while the human who didnt was only trying to end their pain. Not every person is obsessing and planning every detail of their lives to the bitter end. To think you're better because you do consider every detail is a bit hypocritical.

Someone is always going to be hurt or traumatized regardless. Even if it's just your family/ social circle. One type of trauma is not better than another type.

So, I'm not arguing that "every last detail" needs to be considered. In fact, my argument is that the primary detail I'm saying needs to be considered or limited is if you are infringing on the life or safety of others. My problem is that if you find it morally acceptable for someone who is committing suicide to infringe on the rights of others and have it be acceptable due to their past history at what point does it stop? If someone goes on a suicidal rampage and kills others, does their past treatment by the world and/or situation they were dealt in life make it morally justified? I say no, it is not justified.

Also as a heads up, I respect your opinion on this matter and appreciate the open dialogue. More open dialogue and debate on ethical issues is almost always a good thing as long as both sides respect each other.

 

[ocheeva]

They exist exactly for that reason. There is an entire culture and hobbyist area around gun ownership.

Agreed.

I was scrutinizing this one more particularly because the kissing would be a red flag for me. They even had enough time to make the first attempt and flinch. In the ranges I've seen there would have been someone immediately calling out the safety issues here.

Its surprises me how normal people aren't more scared to go to these places. A bunch of people holding loaded guns next to you... That's crazy.

 

[Peel_the_Banana]

So, I'm not arguing that "every last detail" needs to be considered. In fact, my argument is that the primary detail I'm saying needs to be considered or limited is if you are infringing on the life or safety of others. My problem is that if you find it morally acceptable for someone who is committing suicide to infringe on the rights of others and have it be acceptable due to their past history at what point does it stop? If someone goes on a suicidal rampage and kills others, does their past treatment by the world and/or situation they were dealt in life make it morally justified? I say no, it is not justified.

Also as a heads up, I respect your opinion on this matter and appreciate the open dialogue. More open dialogue and debate on ethical issues is almost always a good thing as long as both sides respect each other.

I dont think your argument is valid without making the assumptions that the person: 1) Had intent to screw the bystanders, or 2) The suicide was well planned out i.e. rational. These are not assumptions that hold up in the average suicide. Having exposure to SS would make one conditioned to thinking that is the case so the argument and subsequent value judgments are flawed.

In the case of a murder rampage, your argument has gone from suicide to intentional murder. Merely putting another's safety at risk does not equate to intentional murder.

I actually liken this to vehicular homicide. Nearly all drunk drivers receive lenient or no punishment outside of a ticket. Only in extreme cases of repeat offenders is the person sentenced to 30days to maybe 2 years of jail. It is only the drunk driver that commits vehicular homicide that goes to jail for many years. Well, why should a drunk driver go to jail for 20 to life just for being "unlucky" to have killed someone, when thousands do the same thing and only pay a fine? These people going to the range to suicide are the thousands of drunk drivers that get away with little to no fine.

I have no personal opinion on the matter. I'm not into violent suicides as a person. I'm just digging into the assumptions. Your statements support an inherent bias that all or even most suicides are rational or have intent but the data suggests the contrary.



I hear you. Debate is appreciated. I often debate things that I have no opinion on. Most people dont have an awareness of their underlying belief systems when they debate a topic. I respect people's personal beliefs as long as they are aware they are choosing those beliefs and said beliefs affect their outlooks and outcomes in situations.

 

[Toonloon]

I think the issue was the couple theme shooting. He shot the gun with both heads next to each other sharing a bullet. I think it would have worked if he had done her first than himself.

 

[TriggerHappy]

I think the issue was the couple theme shooting. He shot the gun with both heads next to each other sharing a bullet. I think it would have worked if he had done her first than himself.

? ... but if he'd shot her first, and then himself :: wouldn't that be construed as a murder suicide?
So my understanding is that is the positioning of their heads / bodies // that they 'share' a bullet makes it a suicide pact. I get the shared tragedy / romance involved....
I personally feel her relying on him to pull the trigger amounts to at best enabling, at worst hostage taking (no pun intended)... leaving him to do the deed I feel is a bit cowardly...
My opinion anyway.

 

[Toonloon]

? ... but if he'd shot her first, and then himself :: wouldn't that be construed as a murder suicide?
So my understanding is that is the positioning of their heads / bodies // that they 'share' a bullet makes it a suicide pact. I get the shared tragedy / romance involved....
I personally feel her relying on him to pull the trigger amounts to at best enabling, at worst hostage taking (no pun intended)... leaving him to do the deed I feel is a bit cowardly...
My opinion anyway.

Did you read the article? That's what it described not my opinion.

? ... but if he'd shot her first, and then himself :: wouldn't that be construed as a murder suicide?
So my understanding is that is the positioning of their heads / bodies // that they 'share' a bullet makes it a suicide pact. I get the shared tragedy / romance involved....
I personally feel her relying on him to pull the trigger amounts to at best enabling, at worst hostage taking (no pun intended)... leaving him to do the deed I feel is a bit cowardly...
My opinion anyway.

The average murder suicide goes that way. The "stronger" person shoots the person who couldn't pull the trigger themselves. Than they kill themselves. It's usually a male/female situation where you see the woman is the sub and the male is the Dom.

In same sex situations there is always a sub and Dom combo. Dom shoots the sub aka "weaker" person.

This is now my opinion.

It's not selfish. If both parties agreed. That the one who is stronger mentally and emotionally can shoot each other it's fair. The average pact doesn't come to birth lightly but with much thinking.
So both parties understand what is going to happen.

When I say weaker I mean the person who just can't do it themselves. Not that the person is actually weak. If you have any issues with the word. That's on you and anyone else who likes nitpicking.

 

[TriggerHappy]

Did you read the article? That's what it described not my opinion.

The average murder suicide goes that way. The "stronger" person shoots the person who couldn't pull the trigger themselves. Than they kill themselves. It's usually a male/female situation where you see the woman is the sub and the male is the Dom.

In same sex situations there is always a sub and Dom combo. Dom shoots the sub aka "weaker" person.

This is now my opinion.

It's not selfish. If both parties agreed. That the one who is stronger mentally and emotionally can shoot each other it's fair. The average pact doesn't come to birth lightly but with much thinking.
So both parties understand what is going to happen.

When I say weaker I mean the person who just can't do it themselves. Not that the person is actually weak. If you have any issues with the word. That's on you and anyone else who likes nitpicking.

I get yr opinion, though I don't know why youve quoted me in your post?
nowhere did I claim that I thought it was 'selfish' tho (think you've misunderstood my meaning:: whatever the dom /sub situation is - I understand the perspective of the 'weaker / enabler' archetype :: whether u use a weapon as your means (or a person as your means is quite difficult :: I have no issue with pacts, euthanasia etc or even cop-assisted suicide if that's your thing tho :: I just believe motivations on all sides need to be clearly understood.
also, I never mentioned the term 'weak' (maybe u inferred it because of the enabling thing, I believe they're different aspects totally btw) i myself would love to invite a serial killer over for playtime ( :: would absolve me of the decision making/ effort/ responsibility for taking my own life) A guy can dream yeah.