Resource Stability of SN and N

[GHome]

Did you get it from DMC? They ship it vacuum sealed, so that could be why it feels hard

Yes, it was from DMC. Thank you. So maybe it is good. I will not open it until "the day" come.

 

[U. A.]

I know @bed is hardly online these days and likely doesn't watch this thread (hence the tag, just in case), but after initially being calmed by this thread re: my vintage SN, I've noticed some significant issues. Would appreciate a response when possible, from OP or anyone knowledgeable:

The quote that follows and the citation for it refer strictly to medication, which SN isn't. It's a chemical. I don't know what the regulations are on chemicals, but in any event, this source only applies to legitimate-market pharmaceuticals, and only in the USA. Additionally, the conditions of whatever "lab" our questionable SN came from can't be verified to be at the level of commercial ones.

Again, apples and oranges—notice it says "If your curing salt is only salt and sodium nitrate or sodium nitrite". Not only do we know curing salt ≠ sodium nitrite, but this source is presumably about the expiration for the purposes of curing meat. In any event, curing salt is around 90% sodium chloride.

Where? The link that follows is to a topic page on SciendeDirect, not an article. There are many previews of many articles listed on that page.

What's the source on this? There is none whatsoever, not even a link to a post here or OP saying it was their own information. And to make matters worse there are five chemical indicator colors on that test strip. With no reference gradients, or even confirmation of which chemicals they even are.

I am absolutely not above bumping my own post in an effort to draw attention to it, so that it either might be more widely seen, or have its criticisms addressed.

 

[Caribbean Sky]

I am absolutely not above bumping my own post in an effort to draw attention to it, so that it either might be more widely seen, or have its criticism addressed

this is valid, but for a general person, can we just re-test every so often to ensure purity?

Mine's about 5-6 months old. I bought one batch to test and another that I wouldn't open until ctb. So it's still sealed and airtight. additinally, it's stored in a small, locked safe, inside of a cabinet.
so it's not temperature regulated, but throughout cold and hot months because of how it's stored it's temperature doesn't change as much and has remained relatively stable. Is that good storage ?

 

[rainwillneverstop]

I know @bed is hardly online these days and likely doesn't watch this thread (hence the tag, just in case), but after initially being calmed by this thread re: my vintage SN, I've noticed some significant issues. Would appreciate a response when possible, from OP or anyone knowledgeable:

The quote that follows and the citation for it refer strictly to medication, which SN isn't. It's a chemical. I don't know what the regulations are on chemicals, but in any event, this source only applies to legitimate-market pharmaceuticals, and only in the USA. Additionally, the conditions of whatever "lab" our questionable SN came from can't be verified to be at the level of commercial ones.

Again, apples and oranges—notice it says "If your curing salt is only salt and sodium nitrate or sodium nitrite". Not only do we know curing salt ≠ sodium nitrite, but this source is presumably about the expiration for the purposes of curing meat. In any event, curing salt is around 90% sodium chloride.

Where? The link that follows is to a topic page on SciendeDirect, not an article. There are many previews of many articles listed on that page.

What's the source on this? There is none whatsoever, not even a link to a post here or OP saying it was their own information. And to make matters worse there are five chemical indicator colors on that test strip. With no reference gradients, or even confirmation of which chemicals they even are.

The person providing the test and source wish to stay anonymous. But it has been verified.

 

[Whale_bones]

Again, apples and oranges—notice it says "If your curing salt is only salt and sodium nitrate or sodium nitrite". Not only do we know curing salt ≠ sodium nitrite, but this source is presumably about the expiration for the purposes of curing meat. In any event, curing salt is around 90% sodium chloride.

This is a good point. Two common types of curing salt, Prague Powder #1 and Prague Powder #2, each contain only 6.25% sodium nitrite, along with 93.75% and 89.75% sodium chloride respectively. Without having any chemistry knowledge myself, I would think this difference is so significant that we shouldn't be assuming what's true for curing salt is true for 98%+ purity SN.

What's the source on this? There is none whatsoever, not even a link to a post here or OP saying it was their own information. And to make matters worse there are five chemical indicator colors on that test strip. With no reference gradients, or even confirmation of which chemicals they even are.

It would be helpful to have the reference gradient for this test. Just working off assumptions, I would guess that this test strip is similar to others that have been posted (like here, here and here, with the two bottom pads measuring nitrate and nitrate) and that such a dark red color means the nitrite levels tested at the maximum reading possible.

However, different brands of test strips have very different maximum readings. I've seen some as low as 2.5 ppm, and others as high as 50 ppm. 25 ppm is a common maximum reading, but whether that's the maximum for these particular strips or not, there's no way to tell.

Bottom line IMO, no one should panic about their SN expiring, but they should always plan to test it with aquarium test strips shortly before it's needed.

 

[rainwillneverstop]

I am no chemist but have been looking into as much information as possible to try to give the most reliable info that I can. Forum members with aptitude for research and/or chemistry are also welcome to add to the combined knowledge of the forum to help with this aim.

Again, apples and oranges—notice it says "If your curing salt is only salt and sodium nitrate or sodium nitrite". Not only do we know curing salt ≠ sodium nitrite, but this source is presumably about the expiration for the purposes of curing meat. In any event, curing salt is around 90% sodium chloride.

From article that Bed linked: "Prague powder #1, Prague powder #2, tinted cure and pink salt are all curing salt. Prague powder #1 contains table salt and sodium nitrate; Prague powder #2, table salt and sodium nitrite as do tinted cure and pink salt. [..] Keeping these curing salts dry will keep them fresh and usable indefinitely."

The article defines curing salt as combinations of table salt and either sodium nitrite or nitrate.
Unless you are claiming that the table salt is preventing the nitrite and nitrate in that curing salt mix from degradation, then the original phrasing still describes high stability over an indefinite time if stored properly. While the statement is made in the context of meat curing, that context does not change the underlying chemistry, and it still supports that sodium nitrite does not undergo meaningful degradation and therefore has no practical expiration date when stored properly.

Where? The link that follows is to a topic page on SciendeDirect, not an article. There are many previews of many articles listed on that page.

It's possible that article or link has been removed/changed.

However - it seems as though there is not much information discussing ambient storage because the 'knowledge' is taken for granted across the industry that SN is stable, so research on degradation etc only takes place in extreme temperatures and conditions.

Data sheets like the one linked below do not have expiry dates, just that storage should be in a cool, dry place (Section 7) and that the shelf life is indefinite (Section 10). The absence of an expiry duration or warning of time-limited stability seems to inform the industry that expiry in ambient conditions is not considered an issue, with only hygroscopicity noted as a concern.

Sodium Nitrite SDS (Safety Data Sheet) | Flinn Scientific

Sodium Nitrite ► Flinn Scientific SDS Sheets ► Learn health and safety information about chemicals.

www.flinnsci.com

What's the source on this? There is none whatsoever, not even a link to a post here or OP saying it was their own information. And to make matters worse there are five chemical indicator colors on that test strip. With no reference gradients, or even confirmation of which chemicals they even are.

As addressed above earlier, the author of that photo wish to remain anonymous and I respect that but I have verified them.
However I did ask them if they could do another test, and this was the result:

 

[U. A.]

Thanks for the reply on this.

I am no chemist but have been looking into as much information as possible to try to give the most reliable info that I can. Forum members with aptitude for research and/or chemistry are also welcome to add to the combined knowledge of the forum to help with this aim.

I'll start with the disclaimer that I'm in the same boat regarding chemistry, but research is among my stronger suits. I have been looking into this independently and have also hit a wall finding anything definitive, which is what I would prefer when making decisions about whether or not I will die and think all members deserve as robust and well-sourced a body of information as possible on the matter. Hopefully someone with more expertise comes along sooner than later.

Unless you are claiming that the table salt is preventing the nitrite and nitrate in that curing salt mix from degradation, then the original phrasing still describes high stability over an indefinite time if stored properly. While the statement is made in the context of meat curing, that context does not change the underlying chemistry, and it still supports that sodium nitrite does not undergo meaningful degradation and therefore has no practical expiration date when stored properly.

What I was getting at there is that since the ingredient which is by far the primary constituent of Prague powder is something which does not expire, saying Prague powder by extension doesn't expire is a sound inference, but saying so about pure sodium nitrite is not.

We need to consider the amount when it comes to the purpose: for us, SN is to kill us. For curing, it's to preserve the color of meat, as noted by Tasting Table. Yes it also states it's to inhibit the growth of bacteria but salt alone accomplishes that. Cultures across time and place have known this and used it as such for hundreds or thousands of years. As noted in Vizzy's SN Bible (among other places), purity is extremely important and ought to be 95% minimum. Something tells me if the sodium nitrite in Prague powder were to degrade to a lower relative concentration of 5.8%, it would probably still do a fine job of color retention.

It's possible that article or link has been removed/changed.

Perhaps it can be changed or updated, ideally with an archived version of whatever page were to take its place.

it seems as though there is not much information discussing ambient storage because the 'knowledge' is taken for granted across the industry that SN is stable, so research on degradation etc only takes place in extreme temperatures and conditions.

Again, comparing our purposes—"the industry" is the chemical industry, where labs, sellers, and storage methods are reputable and quality-controlled, vs. guys possibly hanging out on the forum to peddle their home-cooked wares. Anyone who's not bought from an industrial/scientific source has absolutely no idea about the conditions of their product before it reached them, nor any way of finding out. The chemicals could well have been left exposed to open air for any period of time, ultimately shortening their shelf life.

Data sheets like the one linked below do not have expiry dates, just that storage should be in a cool, dry place (Section 7) and that the shelf life is indefinite (Section 10). The absence of an expiry duration or warning of time-limited stability seems to inform the industry that expiry in ambient conditions is not considered an issue, with only hygroscopicity noted as a concern.

Sodium Nitrite SDS (Safety Data Sheet) | Flinn Scientific

Sodium Nitrite ► Flinn Scientific SDS Sheets ► Learn health and safety information about chemicals.

www.flinnsci.com

This is helpful and good to see, though cf. my previous point re: pratfalls of equating reputable industrial sources with sketchbags like DMC who send "Happy New Years" texts to prospective clients he's eager to kill sell to.

As addressed above earlier, the author of that photo wish to remain anonymous and I respect that but I have verified them.
However I did ask them if they could do another test, and this was the result:
View attachment 192845

This is a much more informative photo and if it was provided directly to mods on request by a known source, that's about as good as we can get. As before, if the original post could be updated with this photo and the relevant context (including the age of this batch of SN, unless it's the same one), I think that would only serve to boost its credibility.

 

[Steve Vermont]

So, anyhow, I've posted this elsewhere, but here it is again, because it deserves to be on a top post.

If you pack SN into gel caps, they will absorb moisture from the cap and contaminate the SN, turning it into sodium nitRATE, which will not kill you quickly.

I posted pictures above of what my SN capsules looked like after a couple weeks. Here they are after four months, along with pure SN and the clear capsules they were originally packed into. As you can see, the encapsuled SN is now orange. It should not be like that. Note that the capsules are in a vacuum-sealed bag, so this is not due to absorbtion of water THROUGH the capsule wall. Given that gel capsules are mainly water, it seems to me that the answer to why this happened must be that the SN — which is very hysophilic — absorbed the water from the capsule's walls.

If you plan on taking encapsulated SN, you must encapsulate it very shortly before you take it.

Also, just for reference's sake, each of those packets, including the capsules, is a 25 gram dose. So your looking at three times what's necessary to kill you here.

 

[diredier]

I haven't been here in a while.
How can I easily get some SN? I've been wanting to CTB for a while but I don't wanna chicken out this time.

 

[Steve Vermont]

So, here's blood testing my SN. On the right, you can see the SN that I encapsulated in September. The capsules turned orange and became rubbery. However, when I broke them open, the SN inside was still white! In fact, it's slightly less yellow than the SN that was vacuum-packed! When I dripped my blood in both, it immediately became brown. So brown, in fact, that just the residue on my finger turned my control drop brown (though not as quickly).

Anyhow, it seems my water-contaminated SN in the gel capsules is still as potent as the non-encapsulated SN. Obviously, it would be good to test this with chemical strips, but it seems that the "contaminated" SN is still lethal.
Here's a shot of the "contaminated" SN and its blood drop. Quite brown.
…and here you can see the SN's effect on the capsules. The CAPSULES turned orange, not the SN. The capsules are also very rubbery and stretchy now.

 

[Caribbean Sky]

so whats the proper storage direction for sn? if its on the original thread just lmk please
i haven't read it all yet.

posting though to ask about my storage because: it has been sorted for about 6 months now, in a locked very small safe. the safe is inside the cabinet. where i am there was a huge heat wave in the summer, and recently a huge cold storm.
it is still sealed, unopened (I bought a second batch at the same time for testing) and in it's own plastic zipped bag. despite the temps mentioned, the room it's in has only gotten slightly hot and cold, and inside the safe inside the cabinet, this has meant it's temp has hardly changed.
Is this safe storage?

 

[Steve Vermont]

I live in Brasil. That SN in the gel capsules above saw a month of 90 degree plus temperatures and it's still turning my blood brown.

 

[unluckysadness]

I don't know if my SN is still good. Where I live it's fucking cold in winter and fucking warm in summer.
I don't want to open it because air leakage is not good and it becomes hard to get nowadays.
Shit ! Give me just that fucking N !!

 

[Macedonian1987]

I don't know if my SN is still good. Where I live it's fucking cold in winter and fucking warm in summer.
I don't want to open it because air leakage is not good and it becomes hard to get nowadays.
Shit ! Give me just that fucking N !!

If air moisture didnt get to your SN, it should be fine. I read some chemical books and it said that for the SN to start changing its chemical composition the temperature needs to be extremely high, above 320 celsius degrees .

 

[unluckysadness]

If air moisture didnt get to your SN, it should be fine. I read some chemical books and it said that for the SN to start changing its chemical composition the temperature needs to be extremely high, above 320 celsius degrees .

Thanks for the information I really hope it's still good because it's my only option since N isn't available anymore. I'm not strong enough for hanging myself.

 

[Caribbean Sky]

What is the proper storage for SN? aside from 'store in cool dark place while airtight?' has someone made a guide on here. i have a bottle, never opened (used another bottle from same source to test) it seems tightly sealed in its plastic. I just want to avoid any mistakes, preferably store it in the best recommended way possible. I'm worried my source could disappear soon…and like the other person said im not strong enough for hanging..

 

[unhappily everafter]

I'd like to preface this to hopefully help people not make rash decisions due to the fear that their suicide method will go "bad" and they feel forced to take it before they truly want to. Freedom of choice means everything.

There is a lot of misconception on here about how long both of these chemicals last before they are no longer useable. both SN and N are highly stable compounds in general when stored in a cool, dry, dark environment and unopened the change in potency will diminish very slowly over time. Even when stored in "unstable" conditions, they both will last for a very long time and the loss of potency is negligible. Almost all chemicals are good past their expiration date, an expiration date is not what you may think, " Since a law was passed in 1979, drug manufacturers are required to stamp an expiration date on their products. This is the date at which the manufacturer can still guarantee the full potency and safety of the drug." [1] most drugs will last for decades past expiration, some even for centuries. In the US expired drugs are sold to the military at a discounted price since legally they are no longer acceptable to be sold to the general public.

Stability of Sodium Nitrite

First we will look at SN since it is far more commonly used. "Curing salt has no hard expiration date. If your curing salt is only salt and sodium nitrate or sodium nitrite, it's good forever. Salt itself never goes bad, though yellowing and other discoloration is common. Moisture is a potential problem as it attracts microbes. To prevent such threats, store curing salts in dry, moisture-lock, airtight containers and in a cool dry place, such as your pantry or a dry goods storage closet. Do not refrigerate or freeze curing salt." [2]

Some people are worried that clumping lowers it's efficacy, this is not the case. Here is a picture of pure sodium nitrite [3] and as you can see there is clumping. Small compounds will slowly stick together over time, it is natural and usually has nothing to do with it's efficacy.

View attachment 128403

Another article showing that is it highly stable
click here

This is a picture of an aquarium test strip that was used on SN that has been sitting in a bottle of tap water with a cap on for almost a year. previously it was believed you needed to use distilled water to insure sodium nitrite would breakdown into sodium nitrate at a much slower rate. considering this SN is still useable in very subpar conditions shows this is not the case as well as shows how stable it is as a compound.

View attachment 128405

This shows Sodium Nitrite is much more stable than previously thought, even in unpleasant environments.

Stability of Nembutal (pentobarbital)

Onto Nembutal, although it isn't talked about much anymore I still think it would be a good idea to show some information regarding it. In the past there was a lot of fear that it would go bad past the due date, as well as once it was opened you had to drink it in a certain amount of time. I would like to showcase why this is wrong.

I believe these two articles are the most notable and shows N in both it's stable and unstable environment and how it reacts.

Article 1: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26234474/

The biggest takeaway from this is, "We determined that the drug degraded at a maximum of 0.5% per year in our preparation (alkaline water/propylene glycol/ethanol) when stored in the dark at room temperature. "

Article 2: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23982045/

The biggest takeaway from this is, "the pentobarbital sodium in injection appears to be very stable, because the loss in potency was only about 6.2% after it was boiled in water for 1.5 hours."

This isn't really related but I thought I'd share this as well. There is an anecdotal report on Erowid about a person who took N recreationally for an extended period of time. The biggest thing to note is they found expired vet N had a worse taste. "some of the bottles were past a use-by date they seemed to be the most foul to drink and provided an inferior experience". An inferior experience in this context refers to the high and possibly that the potency of N was only slightly diminished.

Pentobarbital - Erowid Exp - 'Nice but Zombie Effects Long Term'

An Experience with Pentobarbital. 'Nice but Zombie Effects Long Term' by Whynot

www.erowid.org

As you can see N is also a highly stable compound and will last long past it's shelf life with very little loss in potency. When the liquid turns cloudy it means nothing in terms of efficacy loss and is just an arbitrary rule in determining it is no longer good for sterile use in a medical setting.


I hope this thread has helped to clear up the air that Sodium Nitrite and Nembutal do not go bad quickly. You do not have to make a rushed decision to ctb because of the fear that either compound will not work. both substances are highly lethal decades past expiration. Exercise caution and make sure ctb is the right choice for you.





[1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/drug-expiration-dates-do-they-mean-anything
[2] https://www.leaf.tv/articles/does-curing-salt-expire/
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_nitrite

Hoping someone can give some insight regarding SN mixed with water. January 25th of this year I was almost certain I wanted to ctb so I had everything prepared, mixed the 25g with water, crushed clonazepam with water etc. Took the meto & Tylenol but waited more than 40min
Figured I would take my night time meds (seroquel 50mg & 1mg of clonazepam) I started to get sleepy & had a small sip of the sn fell asleep and woke up, vomited and aborted. Next day I poured the solution into 2 separate glass amber bottles. I only have about a tablespoon left (I'm 5'8 approx 127LBS)
I have been thinking about using it very soon but not sure if I should just drink the 2 pre mixed bottles and hope they might still work. My biggest fear is that I will fail at this even with doing all the correct steps ( In my mind I have failed at life in general & anytime I try to do better I just screw things up) I rather have physical pain over this ongoing years of mental anguish.