SCUBA Method Problem

[SomewhereAlongThe]

For awhile I've been thinking about doing the exit bag inert gas method. Then my sights shifted to scuba gear. But upon researching, I came across this:

From ChatGpt:

"It is not wrong to say that some CO₂ might be cleared with shallow unconscious breathing, but it's completely unsafe to assume this is sufficient for life support. The Neptune III, like any scuba regulator, is not a ventilator. It depends on conscious or at least effective breathing effort."

Now normally I don't trust ChatGpt with matters like these, but it was making some pretty solid points.

We breathe at a much lower rate than we do when we're conscious.
The amount we breathe at while unconscious may not be enough to trigger the demand valve for the mask.

Looking at the crack pressure requirements (pressure that triggers the valve) I found:

1–2 mbar crack pressure is generally too high for reliable ventilation at 4–6 L/min in an unconscious diver.

This is problematic because how can I use the mask to ctb? The problem is, how are there people who have died from this method if the mask is unreliable when unconscious?

Your replies are very much appreciated!

 

[oono]

For awhile I've been thinking about doing the exit bag inert gas method. Then my sights shifted to scuba gear. But upon researching, I came across this:

From ChatGpt:

"It is not wrong to say that some CO₂ might be cleared with shallow unconscious breathing, but it's completely unsafe to assume this is sufficient for life support. The Neptune III, like any scuba regulator, is not a ventilator. It depends on conscious or at least effective breathing effort."

Now normally I don't trust ChatGpt with matters like these, but it was making some pretty solid points.

We breathe at a much lower rate than we do when we're conscious.
The amount we breathe at while unconscious may not be enough to trigger the demand valve for the mask.

Looking at the crack pressure requirements (pressure that triggers the valve) I found:

1–2 mbar crack pressure is generally too high for reliable ventilation at 4–6 L/min in an unconscious diver.

This is problematic because how can I use the mask to ctb? The problem is, how are there people who have died from this method if the mask is unreliable when unconscious?

Your replies are very much appreciated!

Can someone please provide an answer to this? Scuba is also my method, but this question is very worrying.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

"It is not wrong to say that some CO₂ might be cleared with shallow unconscious breathing, but it's completely unsafe to assume this is sufficient for life support.

If you're already unconscious from the N2, and breathing shallowly, and N2 continues to flow and maintain unconsciousness, does it really matter if all/any of the CO2 continues to get cleared? This method is not concerned with life support. If you continue to have concerns about this being an issue, the only suggestion I can give is switching back to an exit bag, which utilizes the positive pressure in the bag to push out CO2. Vinny (verified) and GasMonkey did not seem to have any issues via mask use caused by CO2 build-up after unconsciousness (ultimate goal met).

 

[SomewhereAlongThe]

If you're already unconscious from the N2, and breathing shallowly, and N2 continues to flow and maintain unconsciousness, does it really matter if all/any of the CO2 continues to get cleared? This method is not concerned with life support. If you continue to have concerns about this being an issue, I suggest switching back to an exit bag which utilizes the positive pressure in the bag to push out CO2. Vinny (verified) and GasMonkey did not seem to have any issues via mask use caused by CO2 build-up after unconsciousness (ultimate goal met).

That's the thing I don't know if shallow breathing would continue to trigger the demand valve and I would be able to breathe unconsciously, chatGPT says the mask is not designed for unconscious breathing. The co2 that's not cleared could cause me to wake up. I know Gasmonkey seemed to have no problem, but I want to make sure because I don't want this method failing on me.

 

[oono]

That's the thing I don't know if shallow breathing would continue to trigger the demand valve and I would be able to breathe unconsciously, chatGPT says the mask is not designed for unconscious breathing. The co2 that's not cleared could cause me to wake up. I know Gasmonkey seemed to have no problem, but I want to make sure because I don't want this method failing on me.

This is the point that needs to be addressed.
But if some people have had success with the Neptune3 mask, does that mean the method works?

 

[locked*n*loaded]

That's the thing I don't know if shallow breathing would continue to trigger the demand valve and I would be able to breathe unconsciously

Where's the air/O2 (for breathing) going to come from? The valve allows removal of CO2, not inhalation of air/O2. ⁰

The co2 that's not cleared could cause me to wake up.

I'm not sure this could happen at all. Is this a constant flow mask setup, or an on demand type one? Seems if you have a continuous influx of N2 into your lungs, and no air/O2 to counter the effects, a hypercapnic response, in and of itself, could not possibly cause you to wake up (in this gas scenario; in other methods it *possibly* could) because there would just not be any O2 being delivered to your lungs. I don't think adrenaline can overcome that hurdle.

I know Gasmonkey seemed to have no problem, but I want to make sure because I don't want this method failing on me.

I understand. I believe it to be a non-issue. I'm not sure what someone is going to be able to tell you to convince you otherwise.

I forget, but wasn't GasMonkey's setup, also, on-demand, meaning he didn't even have a continuous flow of N2?

 

[oono]

Where's the air/O2 (for breathing) going to come from? The valve allows removal of CO2, not inhalation of air/O2. ⁰


I'm not sure this could happen at all. Is this a constant flow mask setup, or an on demand type one? Seems if you have a continuous influx of N2 into your lungs, and no air/O2 to counter the effects, a hypercapnic response, in and of itself, could not possibly cause you to wake up (in this gas scenario; in other methods it *possibly* could) because there would just not be any O2 being delivered to your lungs. I don't think adrenaline can overcome that hurdle.


I understand. I believe it to be a non-issue. I'm not sure what someone is going to be able to tell you to convince you otherwise.

I forget, but wasn't GasMonkey's setup, also, on-demand, meaning he didn't even have a continuous flow of N2?

Your answers are reassuring. I also want to use the scuba method; I already have the adapter.

The mask we're talking about is the Ocean Reef Neptune 3. I think it's an on-demand flow, not a continuous flow.

 

[SomewhereAlongThe]

Where's the air/O2 (for breathing) going to come from? The valve allows removal of CO2, not inhalation of air/O2. ⁰


I'm not sure this could happen at all. Is this a constant flow mask setup, or an on demand type one? Seems if you have a continuous influx of N2 into your lungs, and no air/O2 to counter the effects, a hypercapnic response, in and of itself, could not possibly cause you to wake up (in this gas scenario; in other methods it *possibly* could) because there would just not be any O2 being delivered to your lungs. I don't think adrenaline can overcome that hurdle.


I understand. I believe it to be a non-issue. I'm not sure what someone is going to be able to tell you to convince you otherwise.

I forget, but wasn't GasMonkey's setup, also, on-demand, meaning he didn't even have a continuous flow of N2?

The air comes from the demand valve that senses your breathing, and this is where the problem arises, it has a crack pressure, and if that's not reached then the air/nitrogen won't flow through. The co2 is removed through a dedicated exhaust system built into the regulator.

This is a demand type setup. There's no continuous flow and without strong conscious exhalation the exhaust valve doesn't open properly, co2 doesn't clear properly.

Now I may be absolutely wrong, but these are the issues I'm facing while doing this method. Which is why I'm sticking with the Exit bag.

Yes Gasmonkey's setup was on-demand.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Just found this on Wikipedia.

"When humans breathe in an asphyxiant gas or any other physiologically inert gas, they exhale carbon dioxide without re-supplying oxygen. Physiologically inert gases (those that have no toxic effect, but merely dilute oxygen) are generally free of odor and taste. Accordingly, the human subject detects little abnormal sensation as the oxygen level falls. This leads to asphyxiation (death from lack of oxygen) without the painful and traumatic feeling of suffocation (the hypercapnic alarm response, which in humans arises mostly from carbon dioxide levels rising), or the side effects of poisoning."

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation

and if that's not reached then the air/nitrogen won't flow through.

Still, there's no air/02 that will be flowing into the mask (unless your mask does not fit tightly onto your face), therefore no O2 to thwart the effects of the N2.

The mask we're talking about is the Ocean Reef Neptune 3. I think it's an on-demand flow, not a continuous flow.

I remember you linking that mask in a message to me.

The air comes from the demand valve that senses your breathing, and this is where the problem arises, it has a crack pressure, and if that's not reached then the air/nitrogen won't flow through.

What is that pressure? One would *think* that this "crack pressure" would be designed so that it is relatively low, so that if a diver was in trouble and had shallow breathing, that their shallow breathing would still be enough to allow O2 to enter their mask in order to keep them alive until help could reach them.

 

[SomewhereAlongThe]

Still, there's no air/02 that will be flowing into the mask (unless your mask does not fit tightly onto your face), therefore no O2 to thwart the effects of the N2.

Yes, there's no O2 to thwart the effects of N2, but at the same time there's no breaths of N2 that cause the brain damage and death we're looking for. You'd end up breathing co2 because your exhalations aren't strong enough to open the exhaust valve. You'd suffocate.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

You'd end up breathing co2 because your exhalations aren't strong enough to open the exhaust valve. You'd suffocate.

Well, it seemed to have worked for GasMonkey and Vinny (probably some others too), but if you're not comfortable with it, that's what really matters most. Maybe continuous flow is the way to go for you. I'm sure you could still rig up your mask for continuous if so inclined, or just utilize a bag. If one doesn't have confidence in a method, that's a huge additional burden to be carrying on top of the rest of the anxiety of the moment. I hope you can get it all sorted out to your satisfaction.

 

[oono]

Well, it seemed to have worked for GasMonkey and Vinny (probably some others too), but if you're not comfortable with it, that's what really matters most. Maybe continuous flow is the way to go for you. I'm sure you could still rig up your mask for continuous if so inclined, or just utilize a bag. If one doesn't have confidence in a method, that's a huge additional burden to be carrying on top of the rest of the anxiety of the moment. I hope you can get it all sorted out to your satisfaction.

Is it really possible to configure the Neptune 3 in continuous flow?

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Is it really possible to configure the Neptune 3 in continuous flow?

I don't really know since I don't have it in front of me. It seems if it was put together with this "crack pressure" valve, the valve could by removed and somehow fitted with something to take it's place and accept a hose/tube from a flowmeter. For that matter, a small hole could be made into the mask and a tube from a flowmeter stuck through it and sealed. There's always a way. Just depends on your level of motivation, creativity, fortitude, and skill. I may be a little biased because I can make just about anything I need and have done so many times. And I do have equipment/machinery to make "things". I'd probably either make some kind of adapter for the inlet, or modify something already in the market. Or, like I said, seal off the inlet and just drill a hole and insert the hose/tubing from a flowmeter.

 

[oono]

I don't really know since I don't have it in front of me. It seems if it was put together with this "crack pressure" valve, the valve could by removed and somehow fitted with something to take it's place and accept a hose/tube from a flowmeter. For that matter, a small hole could be made into the mask and a tube from a flowmeter stuck through it and sealed. There's always a way. Just depends on your level of motivation, creativity, fortitude, and skill. I may be a little biased because I can make just about anything I need and have done so many times. And I do have equipment/machinery to make "things". I'd probably either make some kind of adapter for the inlet, or modify something already in the market. Or, like I said, seal off the inlet and just drill a hole and insert the hose/tubing from a flowmeter.

Okay, I see, unfortunately I'm not as good at making things as you are. So I'm going to use it like this, like a gasmonkey and other things.
I hope the method won't fail because of this passive breathing that can block the nitrogen supply...
I'm wondering, between SN and scuba, which of these two methods is more reliable?

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Okay, I see, unfortunately I'm not as good at making things as you are. So I'm going to use it like this, like a gasmonkey and other things.
I hope the method won't fail because of this passive breathing that can block the nitrogen supply...
I'm wondering, between SN and scuba, which of these two methods is more reliable?

That's a hard question to answer. I don't know how to answer it. SN, following protocol, and allowing for enough undisturbed time seems highly reliable to me. News accounts, especially from GB, seem to indicate it is highly reliable. On the other hand, there's been 2 recent, high(er) profile ctbs with gas, Vizzy & GasMonkey, one verified (Vizzy - saw pictures), both using on-demand gas.

If I were going to speak from my "gut" about this gas topic at hand, I'd have to say that this "issue" we've been discussing *may* be overblown some, and may not be an issue at all. Ofc, I can't know for sure as I've never tried it (and failed, but lived to tell about it). Idk. They're executing people in the US left and right now using nitrogen, and there's been more than just GasMonkey and Vizzy here who have "anecdotally" utilized the method to assumed success. It's highlighted in the PPH as a peaceful, reliable method. I think we would have heard something if the on-demand option was problematic in the delivery of enough gas to get the job done coupled with CO2 concerns.

Honestly, I think both methods are amongst the best of a lot of bad options. I just don't know how to single out one over the other as being "better".