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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Visionary
Apr 15, 2024
2,076
The first time I sought help for depression, and they deemed it severe, the psychiatrists told me "just remember, it can get better". Since then I have heard this same line, almost like a pre-recorded soundtrack from video game NPCs, told by every other mental health professional despiite them not knowing each other. Even my parents have said something similar and repeated it over and over again. It's almost creepy, like whole humanity is in a cult. Well guess what, after all the help I've been offered and tried for almost 3 years now, it never fully "got better".

The only thing that made things better is self-medicating, but that is frowned upon, punished and also seen as a form of suicide. And it is, but a much slower one than other methods (but aren't they all about extending life as long as possible? Or does that only count for trying to live a productive/profitable life as long as possible)?

Why can't humanity break free from the pro-life cult and finally face reality that some lives are simply too painful to continue and it WON'T "get better"?
 
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Dejected 55

Dejected 55

Enlightened
May 7, 2025
1,007
I feel like in life that if you are lucky enough to find someone who truly cares and does want to help, they are going to be unable to help because it is impossible... while all the other people, therapists included, will pretend to want to help because they get something out of it. In the case of therapists they not only get the "buzz" of being able to say they "help people" but they make lots of money doing it.

IF mental health could truly be easily and permanently addressed, it would not because there's no money in cures... only in perpetual treatments.
 
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Seiba

Seiba

Mage
Jun 13, 2021
514
For me when I went she went "So, what would it take for you have a life worth living? Let's work towards that." as if it was super linear and easy to do
 
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CumbriaCTB

CumbriaCTB

Member
Jul 15, 2025
36
The NPC thing is spot on.

A couple of years ago during a night out, I was in the toilets brushing my hair in the mirror when somebody suddenly bursts into the room, locks herself in one of the stalls, and just goes absolutely mental in there.

Here's where it gets uncanny: you know in Skyrim when you accidentally steal a cheese wheel and the whole town comes after you all at once while yelling generic combat lines like "NEVER SHOULD'VE COME HERE" and "I'LL MOUNT YOUR HEAD ON MY WALL"? Yep. This woman in the toilet stall essentially stole the cheese wheel. Everybody else just suddenly reacts by yelling generic platitudes like "IT GETS BETTER" and "YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL" while trying to pathfind their way into the toilet stall. Absolutely surreal experience.

I obviously just kept nonchalantly brushing my hair because I knew that, glancing at my day-old cut scars in the mirror, that I was most certainly not in any position to help her and trying to intervene at all would just make everything worse. Normies seem to lack this level of self-awareness.
 
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_Gollum_

_Gollum_

Formerly Alexei_Kirillov
Mar 9, 2024
1,423
For me when I went she went "So, what would it take for you have a life worth living? Let's work towards that." as if it was super linear and easy to do
And as if everyone had an ideal life that they think would be worth living. Some of us don't want a life regardless of its quality.
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
12,669
Presumably, they're taught similar curriculums at school and, read similar books, so it doesn't really surprise me that they say the same sort of things. They're surely taught to do their job a certain way. There may even be penalties if they stray too far off script.

Imagine what would happen if they had a similiar conversation to people here. Where they wallowed in misery alongside the patient and put up no opposition to suicide. If the person then does kill themselves- I imagine the families would be after their blood! I imagine in many ways, their hands are tied. I think their behaviour has as much to do with the culture of blame we're in.

Plus, they probably assume that if we are going to see them, we are displaying a commitment to 'recover'. Maybe their techniques to achieve that aren't suitable though.

What I'd be curious about is- do those things work for the majority? Do they monitor everyone's health to see if their treatments are working? Do they then alter their 'style' or technique if the patient isn't responding?

Did you ever tell them that you've heard those mantras for years and, they aren't working for you? Why are they so different to doctors? If a doctor prescribes something that doesn't work, you don't just keep taking it. You tell them- surely?

Maybe they won't like being challenged. Maybe they'll just drop the patient for being too obstructive. I suppose that's one issue I have in their favour. I don't think it's like physical illness where they do a procedure and (hopefully) our body heals. I think 'fixing' or adjusting our thought patterns must require the majority of effort from us. Are we willing to put in that effort?

How much of it is that the things they say are ridiculous and, how much is it that we don't have the energy to try what they say? That we're too stuck maybe to even attempt to move.

I know myself that I'm not willing to put in that effort. I won't do things I don't believe in. I probably won't even do things that are too difficult. So- it would be a waste of both their and my time to see a therapist. Because- deep down, I'm not committed to recovery.

It's not meaning to victim blame but I suppose if we won't even give their methods a chance, how do either of us know they will or won't work?

I wonder what could be done as an alternative. I definitely think listening to the person/ patient is important. To fully grasp what's going on with them so that at least the response is tailored, rather than just broad platitudes. What do you think though? What would work better?
 
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Dejected 55

Dejected 55

Enlightened
May 7, 2025
1,007
Presumably, they're taught similar curriculums at school and, read similar books, so it doesn't really surprise me that they say the same sort of things. They're surely taught to do their job a certain way. There may even be penalties if they stray too far off script.

This is one of my peeves about education in general. There is too much time and effort spent on trying to shape "how" people think as if people don't think correctly. I mean, sure, one could have a disease or be neuro-divergent or any number of reasons why they might think differently whether or not you could describe it as "wrong" thinking... but people are inherently thinkers.

Babies have to learn a lot of things very quickly in life. Language of those around them without any meaningful cues, they have to interpret their surroundings and figure out that people are communicating and decipher how that works. Meanwhile, they are learning how to operate their own physical bodies to do things like walking even as they are growing and often their legs are not the same length. You literally cannot stop a child from learning up until they are around school age... then everything changes, and suddenly we start trying to force kids to think in certain ways, ways that "experts" have decided is the way to think... and then we break so many kids who become broken adults.

And, I'm not even talking about religious indoctrination or political indoctrination or all of those nefarious things we impose on people... I'm talking more subtle things that adults try and impose on kids who already clearly have a super-efficient way of learning and adapting that has served them very well to that point.

Trying to tell people how to think is just wrong and leads to wrong places. People inherently know how to think. We are natural puzzle solvers.

We should instead focus on teaching verifiable repeatable things... teach knowledge and allow people to think how they think and absorb that knowledge and think new things as a result of that. This is how new ideas and new uses and unique configurations come about... people thinking naturally about things that other people have known for generations and suddenly seeing something different. That doesn't come from trying to force people to think a certain way. In fact, forcing people to think a certain way is a surefire method to ensure no one ever thinks of anything new ever again because if we all draw the same conclusions then we will never draw new ones.

I was always frustrated in school by teachers who wanted to teach a process and not a concept. Students would learn a process and never the concept and unless you gave them the EXACT scenario, they could not interpolate and figure out how to apply the concept to a previously unanticipated situation. The worst example of this I'll share below.

In college there was a time when a friend wanted to study for a Physics final. I didn't need to study myself, but I figured maybe I could help him. Colleges sell old exams so you can get an idea of the kind of questions that might be on a test to help you prepare. This friend had an old exam so we went through it, problem by problem and he seemed to get what was going on and felt good when we had finished studying.

After the exam a few days later, I saw him and he said to me, "Hey, that final was easy. They had all the same questions as were on that practice exam!" I responded, "Yeah, I was surprised to see those same questions, but they just changed units like Newtons to kg or vice-versa but otherwise used the same questions." My friend had a look when I said that... all the blood rushed from his face and he said, "They changed units?"

See... he just recognized the words and the numbers from the example problems so he picked the same answers. He spectacularly failed the exam because every answer he chose was wrong as a result. He did no critical thinking, no problem solving, he never learned the concepts... he only learned to work specific problems and if you changed them even slightly they meant nothing to him.

I knew someone else in high school... he would make 100% on the tests but there is always overlap in school where the next lesson builds on the previous one... so the next day after a test he had aced, he wouldn't know basic things. In this case, the teacher wasn't doing a good job of testing conceptual understanding so this student was able to study for the test and pass without actually understanding how to apply the concepts.

And bringing this full circle... the psychiatrist or psychologist all too often only knows to run through their checklist and shove you into whatever box the checklist says you should be shoved and put you on whatever therapy/drug the checklist says. Very few doctors seem to be good at critical thinking. Sure, they learn new checklists as new information gets rolled into the community... they learn to regurgitate the new buzzwords and treatments and diagnoses... but they don't really understand anything they are saying.
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
12,669
This is one of my peeves about education in general. There is too much time and effort spent on trying to shape "how" people think as if people don't think correctly. I mean, sure, one could have a disease or be neuro-divergent or any number of reasons why they might think differently whether or not you could describe it as "wrong" thinking... but people are inherently thinkers.

Babies have to learn a lot of things very quickly in life. Language of those around them without any meaningful cues, they have to interpret their surroundings and figure out that people are communicating and decipher how that works. Meanwhile, they are learning how to operate their own physical bodies to do things like walking even as they are growing and often their legs are not the same length. You literally cannot stop a child from learning up until they are around school age... then everything changes, and suddenly we start trying to force kids to think in certain ways, ways that "experts" have decided is the way to think... and then we break so many kids who become broken adults.

And, I'm not even talking about religious indoctrination or political indoctrination or all of those nefarious things we impose on people... I'm talking more subtle things that adults try and impose on kids who already clearly have a super-efficient way of learning and adapting that has served them very well to that point.

Trying to tell people how to think is just wrong and leads to wrong places. People inherently know how to think. We are natural puzzle solvers.

We should instead focus on teaching verifiable repeatable things... teach knowledge and allow people to think how they think and absorb that knowledge and think new things as a result of that. This is how new ideas and new uses and unique configurations come about... people thinking naturally about things that other people have known for generations and suddenly seeing something different. That doesn't come from trying to force people to think a certain way. In fact, forcing people to think a certain way is a surefire method to ensure no one ever thinks of anything new ever again because if we all draw the same conclusions then we will never draw new ones.

I was always frustrated in school by teachers who wanted to teach a process and not a concept. Students would learn a process and never the concept and unless you gave them the EXACT scenario, they could not interpolate and figure out how to apply the concept to a previously unanticipated situation. The worst example of this I'll share below.

In college there was a time when a friend wanted to study for a Physics final. I didn't need to study myself, but I figured maybe I could help him. Colleges sell old exams so you can get an idea of the kind of questions that might be on a test to help you prepare. This friend had an old exam so we went through it, problem by problem and he seemed to get what was going on and felt good when we had finished studying.

After the exam a few days later, I saw him and he said to me, "Hey, that final was easy. They had all the same questions as were on that practice exam!" I responded, "Yeah, I was surprised to see those same questions, but they just changed units like Newtons to kg or vice-versa but otherwise used the same questions." My friend had a look when I said that... all the blood rushed from his face and he said, "They changed units?"

See... he just recognized the words and the numbers from the example problems so he picked the same answers. He spectacularly failed the exam because every answer he chose was wrong as a result. He did no critical thinking, no problem solving, he never learned the concepts... he only learned to work specific problems and if you changed them even slightly they meant nothing to him.

I knew someone else in high school... he would make 100% on the tests but there is always overlap in school where the next lesson builds on the previous one... so the next day after a test he had aced, he wouldn't know basic things. In this case, the teacher wasn't doing a good job of testing conceptual understanding so this student was able to study for the test and pass without actually understanding how to apply the concepts.

And bringing this full circle... the psychiatrist or psychologist all too often only knows to run through their checklist and shove you into whatever box the checklist says you should be shoved and put you on whatever therapy/drug the checklist says. Very few doctors seem to be good at critical thinking. Sure, they learn new checklists as new information gets rolled into the community... they learn to regurgitate the new buzzwords and treatments and diagnoses... but they don't really understand anything they are saying.

I think I understand what you're getting at. One of the most profound conversations I had with a friend of my Mum's felt like a therapy session. She asked me questions that made me really think about what I wanted out of myself and, out of life. Not always in an obvious way either. But, I agree. It's just as important to get the person thinking about their life and problems.

Oh no! Your poor friend. Sometimes, I think we can just have mental blocks though where it's just so hard to comprehend something. Maybe we're just lazy sometimes too. Especially if we aren't interested in the subject.

I agree in terms of teaching styles and not just following guidelines in terms of therapy. I suppose the difference with therapy is that- you don't exactly go along because everything is great. It seems more likely we go when something is deeply troubling us. Then, it does make sense for them to try to work out whether it's the situation itself, our way of seeing it or, a combination. Our brain may not necessarily be working in the most effective, positive way for us if we are feeling the need for therapy.
 
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Sweet Tart

Sweet Tart

Arcanist
May 10, 2023
478
For me when I went she went "So, what would it take for you have a life worth living? Let's work towards that." as if it was super linear and easy to do
I actually like this kind of question because it is concrete & focused on what you want, rather than someone else's idea of what you need. She probably should have broken it down more, tho, so you could work together on baby steps instead of it seeming like 1 huge task to change everything.

I hope I'm not coming across as judgy; it's not for me to say whether this therapist had the skill to be effective or not. I just think the question has potential to be helpful, if there is trust & it's asked in the appropriate context.

I am struggling with the question of what would make life worth living. I can't even find a reason to brush my hair everyday.
 
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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Visionary
Apr 15, 2024
2,076
For me when I went she went "So, what would it take for you have a life worth living? Let's work towards that." as if it was super linear and easy to do
Lol, at least it was more original and oriented towards something tangible, maybe.
The NPC thing is spot on.

A couple of years ago during a night out, I was in the toilets brushing my hair in the mirror when somebody suddenly bursts into the room, locks herself in one of the stalls, and just goes absolutely mental in there.

Here's where it gets uncanny: you know in Skyrim when you accidentally steal a cheese wheel and the whole town comes after you all at once while yelling generic combat lines like "NEVER SHOULD'VE COME HERE" and "I'LL MOUNT YOUR HEAD ON MY WALL"? Yep. This woman in the toilet stall essentially stole the cheese wheel. Everybody else just suddenly reacts by yelling generic platitudes like "IT GETS BETTER" and "YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL" while trying to pathfind their way into the toilet stall. Absolutely surreal experience.

I obviously just kept nonchalantly brushing my hair because I knew that, glancing at my day-old cut scars in the mirror, that I was most certainly not in any position to help her and trying to intervene at all would just make everything worse. Normies seem to lack this level of self-awareness.
Yeah, sometimes people going mental like that, the last thing they have energy for is explaining, to a complete stranger no less, how you may help. They may also appreciate that you were non-judgmental and not nosy. Too many people really just wanna play hero to feel good about THEMSELVES, not the one in distress. It reminds me of concepts like white saviorism (or White Man's Burden) where western rich people go to poor countries to "help" only to find out later in history books that they didn't actually really care about the poor people in dictatorships there, and in fact created more dictatorships. The mental health profession has created perpetual dictatorships for the suicidal, in the forms of forced psych wards and restricting access to more painless suicide methods. All in the name of "saving lives".
And as if everyone had an ideal life that they think would be worth living. Some of us don't want a life regardless of its quality.
That's a harsh reality also. Sometimes being suicidal is just being suicidal. No cause correlated with any factors, at least that we know of. There are people who are rich who are more suicidal than the poor and vice versa. People who have good physical and mental health yet want to die and those who are in crippling pain daily yet feel a purpose or urge to keep on going. The point is, who are we to judge.
Presumably, they're taught similar curriculums at school and, read similar books, so it doesn't really surprise me that they say the same sort of things. They're surely taught to do their job a certain way. There may even be penalties if they stray too far off script.

Imagine what would happen if they had a similiar conversation to people here. Where they wallowed in misery alongside the patient and put up no opposition to suicide. If the person then does kill themselves- I imagine the families would be after their blood! I imagine in many ways, their hands are tied. I think their behaviour has as much to do with the culture of blame we're in.
Yes, that makes sense. Conformity. But someone started this kind of culture, wrote the curriculums, books, scripts and enforces the penalties. The families could also, instead of being selfish, be happy for their family no longer suffering after ctb.
Plus, they probably assume that if we are going to see them, we are displaying a commitment to 'recover'. Maybe their techniques to achieve that aren't suitable though.
Yeah, they told me that too.
What I'd be curious about is- do those things work for the majority? Do they monitor everyone's health to see if their treatments are working? Do they then alter their 'style' or technique if the patient isn't responding?

Did you ever tell them that you've heard those mantras for years and, they aren't working for you? Why are they so different to doctors? If a doctor prescribes something that doesn't work, you don't just keep taking it. You tell them- surely?
Well, they have the same problems in the other medical fields. A lot of medicines don't actually work, even surgeries, if you ask researchers like Jacob Stegenga, author of the book Medical Nihilism. Yet people keep getting the meds prescribed and people believe in them. The skeptical are often seen as alternative quacks (some are because alt medicine doesn't work either), and don't even try be an elderly uncooperative patient.
 
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KillingPain267

KillingPain267

Visionary
Apr 15, 2024
2,076
Maybe they won't like being challenged. Maybe they'll just drop the patient for being too obstructive. I suppose that's one issue I have in their favour. I don't think it's like physical illness where they do a procedure and (hopefully) our body heals. I think 'fixing' or adjusting our thought patterns must require the majority of effort from us. Are we willing to put in that effort?
The brain is a physical part of the body and its thought patterns a result of physical causes. Also, a lot of chronic pain patients are likewise asked to put in effort into physical therapy and lifestyle changes while naturally lucky healthy people only have work to focus on as the most annoying part of life. It can get kind of exhausting when you need to basically provide for yourself while also suffering immense pain that is only marginally reduced by endless effort and time wasting. I wish pills could fix it, and I've been open to almost all the psychiatric meds they offered. But none of it worked very well. Hard drugs on the other hand... lol, but that comes with a hefty after cost of organ damage and withdrawals upon cessation. Suicide really seems like the easy and only truly effective way out. But it's made hard by legal restrictions of lethal substances and assistance justified by lies like "it gets better".
It's not meaning to victim blame but I suppose if we won't even give their methods a chance, how do either of us know they will or won't work?
Yeah, I've been open to even things I feel are bullshit, if anything just so my family knows "he tried everything" and there was nothing more anyone could do. Also, I'm kind of required to at least try recovery to collect disability checks. Otherwise I would have to be in some toxic workplace slaving away just to pay rent which is even worse torture and more of a reason to ctb. The only treatments I'm not open to are ones I feel have too high a risk of scary uncomfortable side effects.
I wonder what could be done as an alternative. I definitely think listening to the person/ patient is important. To fully grasp what's going on with them so that at least the response is tailored, rather than just broad platitudes. What do you think though? What would work better?
What would work better is choice with full legalization of euthanasia cocktail drugs and allow doctors to assist the administration of them.
 
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ma0

ma0

How did I get here?
Dec 20, 2024
657
People have only really been subjected to one single viewpoint their entire lives, that being "death always bad, life always good." That's all they get on the matter, with nothing addressing any other opinions.

Of course, nobody has an actual solid reason for why this is the case, none that they form themselves that is. But since they take this statement for granted, they just repeat whatever they hear elsewhere, because it's obviously true.

People call this site an echo chamber, but at least we've had the self awareness to recognize that the "obvious truths" aren't so obvious, and come to our own conclusions.
 
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Seiba

Seiba

Mage
Jun 13, 2021
514
And as if everyone had an ideal life that they think would be worth living. Some of us don't want a life regardless of its quality.
Definitely, I left out other experiences with her because this is OP's thread but she didn't take any of the suicidal ideation seriously. Was basically go to the free friend store and get some friends, increase your connections with others. She would cut the sessions short by a half hour every time and had little curiosity into me as a person. She dismissed years of isolation and educational neglect (middle school dropout, pulled out by mom to be homeschooled. I wasn't educated past sixth grade) by just telling me when I emailed her requesting services in the initial email I wrote well, so maybe it wasn't that bad.
People go to the college all the time when they're older so I need to email a community college administrator about what I'd need to apply and ride my bicycle to go meet them as homework for that session.

Otherwise for suicide she didn't take it seriously, and it was less than a five minute conversation. She never asked me about my method, plans etc. Which was surprising considering the fear of being hospitalized many have on this forum. She was also just pretty dismissive of my actual issues and acted like obtaining friends would solve almost everything. Of course there was no guidance on how to obtain them, much less with my only form of transportation being a bike and being trapped in a rather mediocre family situation. For family she said verbatim "it sounds like your family isn't doing much for you, so I don't see the issue with them driving you around to a a club or group activity so you don't have to ride your bike"

She had me install a free meditation app (with no educating in session about meditation) and wanted me to report back about it each week. I had already paid money for the waking up app and had been trying meditation for a while before seeing her so it wasn't exactly revolutionary. When I told her it wasn't helping and I had previous experience with meditation she just kind of shrugged and said to keep doing it.
I actually like this kind of question because it is concrete & focused on what you want, rather than someone else's idea of what you need. She probably should have broken it down more, tho, so you could work together on baby steps instead of it seeming like 1 huge task to change everything.

I hope I'm not coming across as judgy; it's not for me to say whether this therapist had the skill to be effective or not. I just think the question has potential to be helpful, if there is trust & it's asked in the appropriate context.

I am struggling with the question of what would make life worth living. I can't even find a reason to brush my hair everyday.
I don't think you're judgy at all, if you look up the question it's a basic DBT question therapist are trained to repeat. She was unfortunately dismissive of my experiences as a person despite that question. I told her I'd like to enjoy hobbies more, and listed off a list of hobbies I tried. I wanted help with "doing things" as vague that sounds because I've struggled with doing almost anything but going to work and home.

She outright interrupted me and told me that was pointless, what I needed what to increase my human connection with others. She gave an example of her being in the volleyball club in college and said I should join a club. Other experiences are above, it was essentially a live laugh love therapist but indifference and dismissiveness added. I was soft spoken and anxious in therapy so that likely didn't help things.

I think it being free counseling through my employment may have contributed to my bad experience. Maybe if I found a therapist through my insurance it would have been better. My insurance was just very high deductible so I couldn't afford therapy comfortably and tried therapy through my job for better or worse.

I completely understand your comment about no reason to even brush your hair — mine used to be matted all over because I couldn't bring myself to care enough. I hope you can find your reason, or at least experience things a little better.

Sorry if the formatting is awful or if it's very long. My computer isn't working and I'm using a phone.
 
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