Method Propranolol OD

[Sbetto]

I'll start by saying that I already have my method, which is SN, and I have everything I need except for propranolol. I'm not sure how I could get it prescribed, since I'm 25 and my blood pressure is normal. I was wondering: is a propranolol OD actually feasible?
I know that propranolol lowers blood pressure and regulates heart rate; I've read that taking too much can cause bradycardia (a slowing of the heartbeat). But in the case of an OD, isn't there a risk of cardiac arrest or something similar?
I don't know if this is a stupid question or if it's already been asked, either way, I'm sorry.

 

[Sbetto]

Up !

 

[SomewhatLoved]

Copypasting my response to someone else who intended to overdose using metoprolol, a similar medication. You can view the full thread here.

At least according to google, propanolol is x3 stronger than metoprolol regarding it's effects on the heart. It could be fatal, but it's hard to know. Depends on how much you take, whether your able to keep it down (consider taking antiemetics), and if you're found within a certain amount of time. Beta blocker overdoses are often manageable using calcium gluconate, norepinephrine, and sodium bicarbonate administration. If you use this method, you want to make sure you're not found for some time. It wouldn't be an instant death even if everything goes right.

To be honest I would never really recommend oral OD as a method. It's unpredictable in almost every circumstance.

First and foremost, as the other commenter said overdose with prescription medications is widely unpredictable. Aside from something like a barbiturate, your odds are questionable. Even opioids or benzodiazepines often aren't enough to kill in high dosages.

That being said, metoprolol is a "beta blocker" medication, more specifically it blocks anything from binding to the B1 receptor. This receptor is responsible for controlling the strength of heart contractions, the rate at which they occur (heart rate), and the electrical conductivity of heart tissue. When nothing is able to bind to the B1 receptor due to it being blocked, your heart function is generally decreased (most notably the rate). This is why metoprolol and other similar medications are usually prescribed due to people having tachycardia (fast heart rate) or other similar heart issues. Theoretically, if you took an excess amount it could induce a severe bradycardia (slow heart rate). If your heart isn't beating fast enough, you could pass out, become lightheaded or dizzy, or have a drop in blood pressure. It most likely would not stop your heart, though. It might not be effective on it's own as a method of CTB, but if combined with something else like hanging it might make you harder to "save" in the event you're found and someone tried to prevent your death.

The thing I have learned about overdoses while working in healthcare is that they're pretty much always treatable if caught early. Benzodiazepines or opioids cause breathing to stop, you can ventilate the patient. Antidepressants can cause metabolic issues, but can be treated with different electrolyte infusions. Beta blockers can cause bradycardia, but you can manually control the heart rate using medications or by delivering a controlled shock.

 

[Ferreter]

Copypasting my response to someone else who intended to overdose using metoprolol, a similar medication. You can view the full thread here.

At least according to google, propanolol is x3 stronger than metoprolol regarding it's effects on the heart. It could be fatal, but it's hard to know. Depends on how much you take, whether your able to keep it down (consider taking antiemetics), and if you're found within a certain amount of time. Beta blocker overdoses are often manageable using calcium gluconate, norepinephrine, and sodium bicarbonate administration. If you use this method, you want to make sure you're not found for some time. It wouldn't be an instant death even if everything goes right.

To be honest I would never really recommend oral OD as a method. It's unpredictable in almost every circumstance.

What about that one guy who came here a bit ago and dropped a bunch of info on Research chemicals as his way to go, the trail went dead after he stopped responding but I've always wondered about that. Maybe there is a better way than SN.

 

[dulldark]

Propranolol was prescribed to me for anxiety. It's literally the first/main option according to every GP I've spoken to. I'm unsure what they prescribe for patients outside the UK.

 

[Natty*]

Copypasting my response to someone else who intended to overdose using metoprolol, a similar medication. You can view the full thread here.

At least according to google, propanolol is x3 stronger than metoprolol regarding it's effects on the heart. It could be fatal, but it's hard to know. Depends on how much you take, whether your able to keep it down (consider taking antiemetics), and if you're found within a certain amount of time. Beta blocker overdoses are often manageable using calcium gluconate, norepinephrine, and sodium bicarbonate administration. If you use this method, you want to make sure you're not found for some time. It wouldn't be an instant death even if everything goes right.

To be honest I would never really recommend oral OD as a method. It's unpredictable in almost every circumstance.

It's nearly impossible to od on benzos alone and enough tricyclics are very deadly leading to cardiac arrest, not metabolic issues, if not caught and treated in time. Treatment consists of cpr, being on a ventilator in the ICU, stomach pumped, etc...

 

[SomewhatLoved]

It's nearly impossible to od on benzos alone and enough tricyclics are very deadly leading to cardiac arrest, not metabolic issues, if not caught and treated in time. Treatment consists of cpr, being on a ventilator in the ICU, stomach pumped, etc...

You're not wrong, but the cardiac arrest that results from TCAs is caused by metabolic issues. TCAs are cardiotoxic and hepatoxic when taken in large amounts. They also have effects on the autonomic nervous system. When taken in large amounts, they cause a widening QT interval (lengthening time from depolarization to repolarization of the heart's ventricles), which results in a period where other aberrant ("stray") electrical impulses may affect the myocardium and induce an arrhythmia. Specifically, a ventricular arrhythmia such as ventricular fibrillation. Ventricular fibrillation is a pulseless rhythm, so this would mean the patient would be in arrest at that point. Another possibility is ventricular tachycardia, which can either have a pulse (ventricular tachycardia, VT) or not have a pulse (pulseless ventricular tachycardia, pVT). In either case, these arrhythmias are not sustainable. These rhythms are so fast that the heart cannot fill properly (rapid filling phase of diastole is too short), and will result in impaired circulation. Eventually heart function would deteriorate and lead towards an arrest.

As mentioned in my previous comment, TCA overdose is treated (at least in the area I work) with calcium gluconate, sodium bicarbonate, and norepinephrine. Norepinephrine is mainly administered to manage shock resulting from impaired cardiac function, so I will focus on calcium gluconate and sodium bicarbonate.

Calcium gluconate: calcium gluconate is a salt solution used to treat cardiotoxicity from drugs among other things. Calcium gluconate increases the amount of calcium in your blood. The increased calcium levels in your blood is useful in the case of cardiotoxicity as calcium plays an important role in depolarization and contraction of the myocardium. Hypocalcemia (low blood calcium) will cause a lengthening QT interval, which is a main contributing factor to arrhythmia and eventual arrest in this circumstance. By administering this medication, you are essentially shortening the QT interval and preventing cardioversion to a ventricular arrhythmia.

Sodium bicarbonate: sodium bicarbonate is an alkaline salt solution often used to treat metabolic acidosis and toxicity from different drugs. It converts different acids into CO2, which can then be exhaled via the respiratory system instead of building up in the body. Where I work, we use it for TCA, ASA, beta blocker, and sympathomimetic overdoses, hyperkalemia (high potassium), and cardiac arrests resulting from excited delirium syndrome.

So yes, TCAs cause cardiac arrest. Anything that kills you technically causes cardiac arrest, The way TCAs specifically do that is through cardiotoxicity, altered metabolism, and disrupting the autonomic nervous system. The reason in my comment I said that "antidepressants cause metabolic issues" and not "antidepressants cause arrest", is because I was focusing more on the mechanism than the result, and in my experience most TCA overdoses are either not severe enough to cause arrest, or are treated before they reach that stage. But yes, if they kill you it will be electrolyte abnormalities/metabolic issues leading to cardiogenic shock leading to arrest.

Treatment of a TCA overdose that reaches arrest would definitely involve CPR, mechanical ventilation either manually (during initial treatment) or via a ventilator (following stabilization), and stomach pumping if the overdose is caught early enough. However, most medications are absorbed in the small intestine so if the overdose has reached an arrest I suspect the medication would have already passed too far through the alimentary/digestive tract for stomach pumping to be effective. "Intestine pumping" is not a thing to my knowledge, so that's not an option really. Stomach pumping/charcoal is not used so much in emergency medicine anymore as it used to be.

What about that one guy who came here a bit ago and dropped a bunch of info on Research chemicals as his way to go, the trail went dead after he stopped responding but I've always wondered about that. Maybe there is a better way than SN.

Depends what the chemical is. Different chemicals have different effects in your body, but there are definitely things that will kill you with varying levels of pleasantness.

 

[Natty*]

You're not wrong, but the cardiac arrest that results from TCAs is caused by metabolic issues. TCAs are cardiotoxic and hepatoxic when taken in large amounts. They also have effects on the autonomic nervous system. When taken in large amounts, they cause a widening QT interval (lengthening time from depolarization to repolarization of the heart's ventricles), which results in a period where other aberrant ("stray") electrical impulses may affect the myocardium and induce an arrhythmia. Specifically, a ventricular arrhythmia such as ventricular fibrillation. Ventricular fibrillation is a pulseless rhythm, so this would mean the patient would be in arrest at that point. Another possibility is ventricular tachycardia, which can either have a pulse (ventricular tachycardia, VT) or not have a pulse (pulseless ventricular tachycardia, pVT). In either case, these arrhythmias are not sustainable. These rhythms are so fast that the heart cannot fill properly (rapid filling phase of diastole is too short), and will result in impaired circulation. Eventually heart function would deteriorate and lead towards an arrest.

As mentioned in my previous comment, TCA overdose is treated (at least in the area I work) with calcium gluconate, sodium bicarbonate, and norepinephrine. Norepinephrine is mainly administered to manage shock resulting from impaired cardiac function, so I will focus on calcium gluconate and sodium bicarbonate.

Calcium gluconate: calcium gluconate is a salt solution used to treat cardiotoxicity from drugs among other things. Calcium gluconate increases the amount of calcium in your blood. The increased calcium levels in your blood is useful in the case of cardiotoxicity as calcium plays an important role in depolarization and contraction of the myocardium. Hypocalcemia (low blood calcium) will cause a lengthening QT interval, which is a main contributing factor to arrhythmia and eventual arrest in this circumstance. By administering this medication, you are essentially shortening the QT interval and preventing cardioversion to a ventricular arrhythmia.

Sodium bicarbonate: sodium bicarbonate is an alkaline salt solution often used to treat metabolic acidosis and toxicity from different drugs. It converts different acids into CO2, which can then be exhaled via the respiratory system instead of building up in the body. Where I work, we use it for TCA, ASA, beta blocker, and sympathomimetic overdoses, hyperkalemia (high potassium), and cardiac arrests resulting from excited delirium syndrome.

So yes, TCAs cause cardiac arrest. Anything that kills you technically causes cardiac arrest, The way TCAs specifically do that is through cardiotoxicity, altered metabolism, and disrupting the autonomic nervous system. The reason in my comment I said that "antidepressants cause metabolic issues" and not "antidepressants cause arrest", is because I was focusing more on the mechanism than the result, and in my experience most TCA overdoses are either not severe enough to cause arrest, or are treated before they reach that stage. But yes, if they kill you it will be electrolyte abnormalities/metabolic issues leading to cardiogenic shock leading to arrest.

Treatment of a TCA overdose that reaches arrest would definitely involve CPR, mechanical ventilation either manually (during initial treatment) or via a ventilator (following stabilization), and stomach pumping if the overdose is caught early enough. However, most medications are absorbed in the small intestine so if the overdose has reached an arrest I suspect the medication would have already passed too far through the alimentary/digestive tract for stomach pumping to be effective. "Intestine pumping" is not a thing to my knowledge, so that's not an option really. Stomach pumping/charcoal is not used so much in emergency medicine anymore as it used to be.

Depends what the chemical is. Different chemicals have different effects in your body, but there are definitely things that will kill you with varying levels of pleasantness.

No, you're wrong and If I weren't so suicidal myself, I'd give a much longer and more detailed response, though I don't think the length of someone's response adds to their credibility. For reference, I was an ICU RN for a long time. I OD'd on tricyclics when I was young and my mother OD'd on tricyclics and is no longer here. You mentioned that tricyclics od can be treated with electrolyte solutions and that's simply not true though electrolyte solutions would obviously be involved as they are involved in the vast majority of all hospital admissions. Also, you could eat your body weight in benzos and your breathing would likely not stop unless you combined them with certain other drugs. And I disagree that ODing is unpredictable "in almost every circumstance". I think if the right meds are taken and the person is not found for x amount of time, death is almost guaranteed. However, I've seen people on here who have talked about ODing on vitamins, Tylenol, benadryl, benzos, etc...True, those kinds of things are guaranteed not to work. Also, I lost a cousin, grandmother, great grandmother, and many mostly online friends to OD. I know a bit about ODing.

Also, I should probably refrain from these sorts of discussions since I didn't join this site to simply chat about suicide, methods, etc...I came on here to find the best method for me, research the hell out of it, and then do it.

 

[SomewhatLoved]

No, you're wrong and If I weren't so suicidal myself, I'd give a much longer and more detailed response, though I don't think the length of someone's response adds to their credibility. For reference, I was an ICU RN for a long time. I OD'd on tricyclics when I was young and my mother OD'd on tricyclics and is no longer here.

This is the pathophysiology I had been taught and the clinical signs I have been instructed to look for. Double checked with National Institute of Health and it also talks about ventricular dysrhythmia/arrhythmia (specifically torsades de pointes, so I guess maybe I should have been more specific and said polymorphic ventricular tachycardia), and various autonomic and cardiotoxic effects. I do admit I was sort of of the ball, and it seems there is more focus on blockade of autonomic receptors. As far as the cardiac action potential goes the main effect is on sodium channels and not calcium, so I was mistaken there too.

You mentioned that tricyclics od can be treated with electrolyte solutions and that's simply not true though electrolyte solutions would obviously be involved as they are involved in the vast majority of all hospital admissions.

I can guarantee to you that where I live our first-line treatments for TCA OD are norepinephrine, sodium bicarbonate, magnesium sulfate, and calcium gluconate. I'm not going to send the protocols to you because I would essentially be doxxing myself, but that's what we do. Even if I edited out any organization names, the flow charts and dosages are available online (our protocols are public access), so I'm sure it could be traced back to my jurisdiction and people could find out where I work. Norepinephrine is administered as part of our shock protocol, so you could also include fluid resuscitation and epinephrine or other pressors.

Also, you could eat your body weight in benzos and your breathing would likely not stop unless you combined them with certain other drugs. And I disagree that ODing is unpredictable "in almost every circumstance". I think if the right meds are taken and the person is not found for x amount of time, death is almost guaranteed. However, I've seen people on here who have talked about ODing on vitamins, Tylenol, benadryl, benzos, etc...True, those kinds of things are guaranteed not to work.

When I talk about ODs in this context I'm mainly talking about the type you mentioned where people take acetaminophen, diphenhydramine, benzodiazepines, etc. Of course a well-planned overdose can be fatal. People discuss pentobarbital and fentanyl on this site. Pentobarbital is pretty much impossible to get, but some people claim to have done it by going to places like Peru or Bolivia. Fentanyl is the same, street fentanyl is unreliable. You can never be sure of the dose or concentration, and pharmaceutical fentanyl is only really given for home use in patch form. I'm not sure how you could make that work lol. There just wouldn't be enough, even if you had no tolerance and used multiple patches. I think patches generally release something like 100mcg per hour, but we literally give that as a slow IV push for pain or sedation prior to airway management. So over an hour even 5 or 6 patches probably would just sedate you but do nothing fatal, even if you had absolutely 0 tolerance. I think the best way would be a MAID death: midazolam, propofol, rocuronium. Propofol is impossible to get though. Not prescribed for home use, never heard of it being sold illegally. Rocuronium would probably be the same. No recreational use so it wouldn't be on that market, and also not prescribed for home use. I'm not familiar with lethal injection but I've heard that they use potassium for that. I suppose this is an option as well, but I doubt it would be pleasant and again, it's unobtainable. No recreational purpose, not prescribed for home use. So you're left with other prescription drugs. Possible? Yes. Would it be as peaceful and reliable as a midazolam-propofol-rocuronium or pentobarbital overdose? I doubt it. Again, in my experience when people take beta blockers, calcium channel blockers, TCAs, or other drugs, generally they do not die unless not found for hours. I think peak toxicity is around two hours or something like that. But honestly most cases I have seen have been people calling 9-1-1 for themselves because they change their mind, the pain/symptoms/discomfort become too much, or they have/get survival instinct. I suppose there's probably observation bias here though. Last thing I can think of is an insulin overdose. I've never seen it myself, but I've heard of people taking all of their insulin at once as a way of causing hypoglycemia. This is obviously a cause of arrest, so I guess it's possible too. Don't really have much experience with it though so I'm not going to speak to it's efficacy as a way of CTBing. I suppose there's also things like xylazine or nitazenes, but I have pretty much no knowledge of them so I'm not even going to say anything. I'm pretty sure they're not sold illegally as their own thing, but I know sometimes fentanyl or other things get laced with it. To my knowledge xylazine is only used in veterinary medicine and I doubt it's given as a take home, and I think (?) nitazenes may be used in humans, but again, I sort of doubt you would get them without being directly given them in a clinical setting by a healthcare practitioner. It's possible, but every drug accessible via take-home prescription or OTC is not something I would really consider a preferred method of CTB. I think a lot of people on this site want a peaceful death, hanging is reliable but a lot of people don't want to do that. You could overdose, but a peaceful and reliable one that I would like to die by is pretty much out of reach.

 

[opheliaoveragain]

What about that one guy who came here a bit ago and dropped a bunch of info on Research chemicals as his way to go, the trail went dead after he stopped responding but I've always wondered about that. Maybe there is a better way than SN.

if you're talking about Rotciv, i'd be mindful. research chemicals aren't a sure thing. they were banned for trying to sell N to people in PMs, a scam no doubt.

 

[Natty*]

This is the pathophysiology I had been taught and the clinical signs I have been instructed to look for. Double checked with National Institute of Health and it also talks about ventricular dysrhythmia/arrhythmia (specifically torsades de pointes, so I guess maybe I should have been more specific and said polymorphic ventricular tachycardia), and various autonomic and cardiotoxic effects. I do admit I was sort of of the ball, and it seems there is more focus on blockade of autonomic receptors. As far as the cardiac action potential goes the main effect is on sodium channels and not calcium, so I was mistaken there too.


I can guarantee to you that where I live our first-line treatments for TCA OD are norepinephrine, sodium bicarbonate, magnesium sulfate, and calcium gluconate. I'm not going to send the protocols to you because I would essentially be doxxing myself, but that's what we do. Even if I edited out any organization names, the flow charts and dosages are available online (our protocols are public access), so I'm sure it could be traced back to my jurisdiction and people could find out where I work. Norepinephrine is administered as part of our shock protocol, so you could also include fluid resuscitation and epinephrine or other pressors.


When I talk about ODs in this context I'm mainly talking about the type you mentioned where people take acetaminophen, diphenhydramine, benzodiazepines, etc. Of course a well-planned overdose can be fatal. People discuss pentobarbital and fentanyl on this site. Pentobarbital is pretty much impossible to get, but some people claim to have done it by going to places like Peru or Bolivia. Fentanyl is the same, street fentanyl is unreliable. You can never be sure of the dose or concentration, and pharmaceutical fentanyl is only really given for home use in patch form. I'm not sure how you could make that work lol. There just wouldn't be enough, even if you had no tolerance and used multiple patches. I think patches generally release something like 100mcg per hour, but we literally give that as a slow IV push for pain or sedation prior to airway management. So over an hour even 5 or 6 patches probably would just sedate you but do nothing fatal, even if you had absolutely 0 tolerance. I think the best way would be a MAID death: midazolam, propofol, rocuronium. Propofol is impossible to get though. Not prescribed for home use, never heard of it being sold illegally. Rocuronium would probably be the same. No recreational use so it wouldn't be on that market, and also not prescribed for home use. I'm not familiar with lethal injection but I've heard that they use potassium for that. I suppose this is an option as well, but I doubt it would be pleasant and again, it's unobtainable. No recreational purpose, not prescribed for home use. So you're left with other prescription drugs. Possible? Yes. Would it be as peaceful and reliable as a midazolam-propofol-rocuronium or pentobarbital overdose? I doubt it. Again, in my experience when people take beta blockers, calcium channel blockers, TCAs, or other drugs, generally they do not die unless not found for hours. I think peak toxicity is around two hours or something like that. But honestly most cases I have seen have been people calling 9-1-1 for themselves because they change their mind, the pain/symptoms/discomfort become too much, or they have/get survival instinct. I suppose there's probably observation bias here though. Last thing I can think of is an insulin overdose. I've never seen it myself, but I've heard of people taking all of their insulin at once as a way of causing hypoglycemia. This is obviously a cause of arrest, so I guess it's possible too. Don't really have much experience with it though so I'm not going to speak to it's efficacy as a way of CTBing. I suppose there's also things like xylazine or nitazenes, but I have pretty much no knowledge of them so I'm not even going to say anything. I'm pretty sure they're not sold illegally as their own thing, but I know sometimes fentanyl or other things get laced with it. To my knowledge xylazine is only used in veterinary medicine and I doubt it's given as a take home, and I think (?) nitazenes may be used in humans, but again, I sort of doubt you would get them without being directly given them in a clinical setting by a healthcare practitioner. It's possible, but every drug accessible via take-home prescription or OTC is not something I would really consider a preferred method of CTB. I think a lot of people on this site want a peaceful death, hanging is reliable but a lot of people don't want to do that. You could overdose, but a peaceful and reliable one that I would like to die by is pretty much out of reach.

Oh boy, I really don't have the energy for this, going into all the patho, etc... You can't really OD on beta blockers/calcium channel blockers so they really shouldn't be lumped together with TCAs which are easy to OD on if enough are taken and enough time goes by w/o being found as you've mentioned. Also, keep in mind, that the vast majority of ODs that end up in the hospital weren't 100% sure they wanted to die and so they either took the wrong stuff or not enough of the right stuff, or they were sure they would be found in time. I think you pretty much said the same thing regarding this point though you added something else which is maybe they were serious to begin with, but then changed their mind for whatever reason. I've considered that I may do this and so plan on not having my phone near me, taking tons of benzos to help with the SI, etc.... Geez i'm creeping myself out, never thought I would do anything like this. The suicide attempt I made when I was younger was simply a cry for help. I didn't want to die. I'm hoping for a miracle for myself and anyone else on here who needs one. You're very smart and I'm guessing young as well. I wish you peace.

 

[ignorableaurochs]

I'll start by saying that I already have my method, which is SN, and I have everything I need except for propranolol. I'm not sure how I could get it prescribed, since I'm 25 and my blood pressure is normal. I was wondering: is a propranolol OD actually feasible?
I know that propranolol lowers blood pressure and regulates heart rate; I've read that taking too much can cause bradycardia (a slowing of the heartbeat). But in the case of an OD, isn't there a risk of cardiac arrest or something similar?
I don't know if this is a stupid question or if it's already been asked, either way, I'm sorry.

I have had it prescribed for anxiety in the past. In fact, they prefer prescribing it to things like diazepam which have more addictive potential.

 

[SomewhatLoved]

You can't really OD on beta blockers/calcium channel blockers so they really shouldn't be lumped together with TCAs which are easy to OD on if enough are taken and enough time goes by w/o being found as you've mentioned.

Yeah, obviously the prognosis is different between the different classes. I guess I lumped them together because these (along with opioids) are really the only ones for which my jurisdiction has a dedicated protocol for prehospital treatment. Otherwise we just have an "adult general toxicology" protocol which is essentually just a series of "Shock? -> treat concurrently with shock protocol", "seizures? -> treat concurrently with seizure protocol", "altered level of consciousness? -> treat concurrently with ALOC protocol", etc. There's ones for industrial chemicals too, but those aren't really relevant I would say. Trying to "OD" on organophosphates or other shit is probably one of the worst methods I could imagine. B-blockers and Ca+ channel blockers aren't as dangerous as TCAs, but I would still say they're more concerning than other things people tend to take to try and kill themselves with like MAOIs or SSRIs or benzos not potentiated by other drugs. B-blockers and Ca+ channel blockers can result in symptomatic bradycardia or widening QRS which is obviously very concerning. I've seen a dude get paced for it before, but yeah the prognosis is wayyyy better than TCAs. Whenever I think of TCAs or see them on a med list I always remember pharmacology class and learning how they're not prescribed so much anymore due to their relatively high risk when compared to alternatives.

My brother tried to OD a few years ago by taking all the meds in the house - including TCAs and benzos among other antidepressants, mood stabilizers, and anxiolytic meds. The intensivist said if he had just taken the TCAs he most likely would have had a worse outcome, but him taking benzos actually most likely negated some of the effects of the TCAs. Full neurological and physical recovery, but he was tubed (RSI) and on a vent with sedation for a while.

 

[Natty*]

My brother tried to OD a few years ago by taking all the meds in the house - including TCAs and benzos among other antidepressants, mood stabilizers, and anxiolytic meds. The intensivist said if he had just taken the TCAs he most likely would have had a worse outcome, but him taking benzos actually most likely negated some of the effects of the TCAs. Full neurological and physical recovery, but he was tubed (RSI) and on a vent with sedation for a while.

I'm sorry about your brother : ( and I hope he's okay now. That's interesting about what the doctor said, makes sense. I sustained some minor heart damage as a result of my rather non serious attempt with just one drug, a TCA.