On courage and cowardice...

[Kali_Yuga13]

In my meanderings on the Internet to neighborhoods of philosophical discussion and metaphysics the topic of suicide comes up here and there. Places where NDEs, afterlife, reincarnation, prison planet and Christianity are discussed are where I tend to land.

Almost always the question of suicide comes down to courage versus cowardice. Suicide is spoken of in hushed tones. In some religions a suicide isn't given a burial on consecrated ground and even the family is sometimes shunned. I've heard it damns you to hell and it's spitting in God's eye for the gift of life.

From those inclined toward Eastern thought I've heard it undo's the totality of all lessons one has learned through numerous incarnation and one has to start from the very beginning. I would have to start as a bug and progressively work my way up the food chain only to once again face life with relative abundance I should be grateful for but with just enough problems to make it a psychic hell. If I can face that kind of life to the end, perhaps I can attain what? Reborn both wealthy AND well adjusted and perhaps even lucky on top of that? And from that lofty perch I can look down upon the billions in misery and poverty and stoically tell them that their suffering is the entry fee to be like me? Just hang in there. eh?

So suicide is seen as a great relinquishment of the duty that's been bestowed upon us in vague contractual terms with no means for renegotiation and no return warranty despite the product being sometimes damaged off-the-shelf. It's the great "no call, no show" to the workhouse of life. "You'd better have a good reason" they'll say.

I'll be honest, the idea of catching the bus only to find myself a disembodied spirt having made a huge mistake scares me. So does the "lake of fire" so does reincarnating a zillion times, so does eternal blackness, and yet so does eternal life and having to remember all my mistakes or having to answer to those that have made less of them. I can't find a truly agreeable scenario but I wouldn't mind a break.

And here we are in this little community where we attempt to solve the dilemma of SI and muster the courage to make our grand and final exit in a world where what we view as courage is considered cowardice. And I have to say that I really don't know. I don't know how one CAN know without the tangible certainty of what happens after death. And yet, having such knowledge would entirely remove the tension between worlds removing both the weight and consequence of the act.

No one really knows this in a way that can be demonstrated to others. Not the most faithful religious person nor the most hard-nosed materialist despite the certainty with which they make their claims. At the end of the day it all ends with "trust me bro". A belief in anything, even nothing, requires faith.

And whose to say the act can be summed up by binary values? Maybe some suicides are cowardly and others courageous. Some are acts of mercy to one's self or caregivers and others are done in revenge. Some are a matter of practicality and others are done in passion. Some are done in foolishness and others with careful deliberation. Some are for political statements or as a sacrifice for a greater good.

I have been stuck in the deliberation stage for too long. I have my means and methods figured out but now it seems that excessively pondering about it is counter productive to just doing it or attempting to recover.

I aspire to acts of courage and dignity in both life and death. Right now I stick around as a matter of dignity. Dignity may in fact be the most important factor in whether or not a person decides to catch the bus. Heck, even the legal euthanasian program in the US is called "Death with Dignity". Or when the Samurai's committed seppuku it was an act to restore their dignity and honor. Whether it be abuse, addiction, poverty, disgrace, regret, homelessness, sickness or disability much of these conditions assail our sense of dignity and also agency. If I can slowly restore both my dignity and agency, perhaps I can recover. So it looks like it's time to start browsing the Recovery section of SaSu.

 

[gothbird]

This is an extraordinarily thoughtful reflection.

You're absolutely right: no one knows. Not the devout priest, not the hardened skeptic, not the theorist. Every explanation of what happens after death, no matter how passionately held, ultimately boils down to belief which is another way of saying "a narrative we choose because it comforts us, confronts us, or fits the shape of our pain." In the absence of certainty, each person builds their meaning around the unknown, and you're right to call out the hypocrisy in how society handles that: assigning blame or cowardice to suicide while refusing to offer terms anyone agreed to, much less a return policy.

If recovery is possible, it won't come through guilt or fear or appeals to cosmic order. It'll come through reclaiming control—the sense that your life is yours again, even if the pain remains. And if you choose to recover, it should be because you want to, not because you were threatened into staying.

Whatever path you end up choosing—recovery, rest, or somewhere in between—I hope it's done with eyes wide open, on your own terms, with no need to explain or justify to a world that offers little in return. And whatever you do next, be it browsing Recovery or preparing to leave, I hope you keep moving in the direction of dignity.

 

[ididnotconsent]

Great post

All of us here have had our sense of dignity, agency, and self worth violated by the world. I wish you much much luck and courage in your attempted recovery or whatever you decide.

And yes, no one really knows what happens after death. Not the priest, imam, pope, Richard Dawkins etc. It's all a guessing game. Also, it won't be eternal blackness, that would be a horror show. It would be eternal nothingness because you have to be conscious to experience blackness.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Very thoughtful post. I believe the concepts of courage and cowardice are linked to worth. Is it courageous to leap into a lion pit to save your smart phone? No- it's dumb. Is it courageous to leap in after a child that fell in- yes. Is it cowardice to back down from a fight you know you can't win or, is it common sense? Again- it depends- on worth. Sometimes, we will stand up and fight- even though there's little chance of success. We need to believe in the cause though or, we need to have enough respect for other people who believe in that cause.

With regards to suicide, I think it's a brave act to do as a stand alone action. It's pretty terrifying. Especially the DIY brutal methods we are sometimes left with. It requires overcoming our own SI plus, all the expectations society places on us. It involves enduring an unknown amount of pain and fear and the result is unknown too. Death or possibly life with injuries. Nothing or afterlife. Facing all those unknowns is frightening. You have to be brave to face up to frightening things.

It can also be seen as being more courageous to keep living but again- I think it hinges on worth. Why are we living? Where is the worth? Are we valuable to others? Maybe. In which case, it makes sense we don't want to hurt them. Still- surely we are the best judges of our own sense of worth. Someone could be a chess prodigy but, grow to hate the game. Be miserable each time they get forced to play it. Should they have to- for the sake of others? Some people simply hate their lives and can't seem to change things enough to feel differently.

Where does courage and cowardice sit in regards to the people potentially being left behind? Isn't it more courageous and loving to let people who are suffering escape their pain? Even though we lose them? Isn't it somewhat cowardly/ selfish to insist that a person suffering remains that way because, we don't want to face our lives without them?

That's the weird double standard about it. People who are struggling so badly in their life that they are suicidal are expected to have the courage to keep going. They need to 'cope' with whatever it is ailing them- illness, awful life circumstances, even bereavement. Yet, those clinging on to them insist they won't be able to cope with their suicide. So- why is it ok for them to insist they can't cope but, not for us?

I suppose because suicide is a deliberate act that can potentially inflict a lot of grief on people. I feel like things would be a lot better if we could talk about it openly though. If people felt able to express why their lives no longer felt worth living, perhaps their options could be discussed earlier. I wonder if there ever could be a shift so that those potentially left behind could see it that they need to be the courageous ones and, let the person go- if they can't be helped.

Ultimately though, it feels like being told what to do and think. You should want to fight for your life. This should be enough for you. You should be happy now. Is it courageous to just accept what we are told? Or, is it more courageous to say: 'You can't decide for me'.

 

[Linda]

In my meanderings on the Internet to neighborhoods of philosophical discussion and metaphysics the topic of suicide comes up here and there. Places where NDEs, afterlife, reincarnation, prison planet and Christianity are discussed are where I tend to land.

Almost always the question of suicide comes down to courage versus cowardice. Suicide is spoken of in hushed tones. In some religions a suicide isn't given a burial on consecrated ground and even the family is sometimes shunned. I've heard it damns you to hell and it's spitting in God's eye for the gift of life.

From those inclined toward Eastern thought I've heard it undo's the totality of all lessons one has learned through numerous incarnation and one has to start from the very beginning. I would have to start as a bug and progressively work my way up the food chain only to once again face life with relative abundance I should be grateful for but with just enough problems to make it a psychic hell. If I can face that kind of life to the end, perhaps I can attain what? Reborn both wealthy AND well adjusted and perhaps even lucky on top of that? And from that lofty perch I can look down upon the billions in misery and poverty and stoically tell them that their suffering is the entry fee to be like me? Just hang in there. eh?

So suicide is seen as a great relinquishment of the duty that's been bestowed upon us in vague contractual terms with no means for renegotiation and no return warranty despite the product being sometimes damaged off-the-shelf. It's the great "no call, no show" to the workhouse of life. "You'd better have a good reason" they'll say.

I'll be honest, the idea of catching the bus only to find myself a disembodied spirt having made a huge mistake scares me. So does the "lake of fire" so does reincarnating a zillion times, so does eternal blackness, and yet so does eternal life and having to remember all my mistakes or having to answer to those that have made less of them. I can't find a truly agreeable scenario but I wouldn't mind a break.

And here we are in this little community where we attempt to solve the dilemma of SI and muster the courage to make our grand and final exit in a world where what we view as courage is considered cowardice. And I have to say that I really don't know. I don't know how one CAN know without the tangible certainty of what happens after death. And yet, having such knowledge would entirely remove the tension between worlds removing both the weight and consequence of the act.

No one really knows this in a way that can be demonstrated to others. Not the most faithful religious person nor the most hard-nosed materialist despite the certainty with which they make their claims. At the end of the day it all ends with "trust me bro". A belief in anything, even nothing, requires faith.

And whose to say the act can be summed up by binary values? Maybe some suicides are cowardly and others courageous. Some are acts of mercy to one's self or caregivers and others are done in revenge. Some are a matter of practicality and others are done in passion. Some are done in foolishness and others with careful deliberation. Some are for political statements or as a sacrifice for a greater good.

I have been stuck in the deliberation stage for too long. I have my means and methods figured out but now it seems that excessively pondering about it is counter productive to just doing it or attempting to recover.

I aspire to acts of courage and dignity in both life and death. Right now I stick around as a matter of dignity. Dignity may in fact be the most important factor in whether or not a person decides to catch the bus. Heck, even the legal euthanasian program in the US is called "Death with Dignity". Or when the Samurai's committed seppuku it was an act to restore their dignity and honor. Whether it be abuse, addiction, poverty, disgrace, regret, homelessness, sickness or disability much of these conditions assail our sense of dignity and also agency. If I can slowly restore both my dignity and agency, perhaps I can recover. So it looks like it's time to start browsing the Recovery section of SaSu.

A belief in anything, even nothing, requires faith.
Not really. It just requires a willingness to evaluate the evidence. There is no evidence whatever for any kind of afterlife, any kind of reincarnation, any kind of god or gods, any kind of supernatural being or beings. So why suppose that any of those things exist? It's just wishful thinking. (That's putting it politely. Less politely, it's just plain silly.)

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

There is no evidence whatever for

While I respect your right to hold fundamentalist beliefs of scientism, that is not my religion.

 

[Linda]

While I respect your right to hold fundamentalist beliefs of scientism, that is not my religion.

Science is not my religion either. It is not religion at all. Science is an honest attempt to understand the world we live in, using the evidence we have. It may not be perfect, but it's the best we have. Religion is myth, superstition, wishful thinking, and general nonsense.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

I hope it's done with eyes wide open, on your own terms, with no need to explain or justify to a world that offers little in return.

I really like everything you've said here especially about recovery on one's own terms. Thank you.

Yet, those clinging on to them insist they won't be able to cope with their suicide. So- why is it ok for them to insist they can't cope but, not for us?

Great point! You get it. If suicide dialogue were to gain acceptance at some point it would evolve into "good bye" celebrations like our threads here but in person. Society is terrified of that. It conjures up Logan's Run. Some of the MAiD campaign alarms even me to the extent that I wonder if's moving toward a states way of getting rid of undesirables. And as macabre as such a scenario might be, how is a war parade much different?

I wonder if there ever could be a shift so that those potentially left behind could see it that they need to be the courageous ones and, let the person go- if they can't be helped.

As if the potential bus passenger doesn't have enough of a burden to bear, living to placate other's fears of death is too much. Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

Science is not my religion either. It is not religion at all. Science is an honest attempt to understand the world we live in, using the evidence we have. It may not be perfect, but it's the best we have. Religion is myth, superstition, wishful thinking, and general nonsense.

The scientific method is a valid method of inquiry and problem solving and something separate from "science" as presented to the public. Religion too is something that can be separated into two basic modes, esoteric (practices and beliefs for the initiated) and exoteric (practices and beliefs for the uninitiated). Most of publicly digestible science is based on two logical fallacies - appeals to authority and appeals to consensus. ie "The experts said so, it must be true" and "everyone believes it so it must be true".

The "no evidence of..." tactic favored by scientific materialists assumes blind faith in experts and accredited institutions as the sole arbiter of truth, ie fundamentalism. Most of it is derived from reframing of language where fiction is rebranded as theory as demonstrated by theoretical concepts such as "dark matter" and "tachyons" which are quantum fan fiction and no less "myth, superstition, wishful thinking, and general nonsense." than anything else as you said.

I'm not sure how far you want to go into the weeds on this as a true discussion deserves it's own thread and is off-topic.

 

[NewtBoy]

Thank you for writing this, it puts to words many sentiments that I've felt many times but don't have the eloquence to communicate in such a clear and concise way.

 

[Linda]

The scientific method is a valid method of inquiry and problem solving and something separate from "science" as presented to the public. Religion too is something that can be separated into two basic modes, esoteric (practices and beliefs for the initiated) and exoteric (practices and beliefs for the uninitiated). Most of publicly digestible science is based on two logical fallacies - appeals to authority and appeals to consensus. ie "The experts said so, it must be true" and "everyone believes it so it must be true".

The "no evidence of..." tactic favored by scientific materialists assumes blind faith in experts and accredited institutions as the sole arbiter of truth, ie fundamentalism. Most of it is derived from reframing of language where fiction is rebranded as theory as demonstrated by theoretical concepts such as "dark matter" and "tachyons" which are quantum fan fiction and no less "myth, superstition, wishful thinking, and general nonsense." than anything else as you said.

I'm not sure how far you want to go into the weeds on this as a true discussion deserves it's own thread and is off-topic.

I am a scientist. I don't "follow authority" or "consensus". I evaluate things for myself, and am perfectly capable of doing so. But I agree that we are getting off topic and that a full discussion would be lengthy. Let's leave that discussion for anothe day.

 

[Poiter1987]

This post was very good. I'm what does SI mean? I'm new here.

 

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

SI is survival instinct - the bit where people are fully convinced they wanna die, drink the poison, yet still call for help & surprise even themselves, that kinda thing.
All of the above & is interesting to me.
I am an atheist who believes in science, who chooses not to be arrogant about it (some of my friends are, I dip a toe occasionally when provoked).
None of us know. Or can know. But if we ever DO know - because a god or gods appears to us all, or science provides proof, we should all just put our dumbass opinions away & surrender to fact being higher than opinion. Also, it's highly unlikely god will ever appear to us all, & science changes & evolves, it's not static. But the chances of any of us knowing any thing before our buses???
I think we'd have better luck predicting lotto numbers TBH...
I'm not really sure why I've chosen to comment & doubt I had anything useful to add, so I might just say goodnight & thanks for the read, OP.

 

[nooseknot]

This post was very good. I'm what does SI mean? I'm new here.

SI means Survival Instinct

 

[Apathy79]

I don't know how one CAN know without the tangible certainty of what happens after death. And yet, having such knowledge would entirely remove the tension between worlds removing both the weight and consequence of the act.

No one really knows this in a way that can be demonstrated to others. Not the most faithful religious person nor the most hard-nosed materialist despite the certainty with which they make their claims. At the end of the day it all ends with "trust me bro". A belief in anything, even nothing, requires faith.

Loved the entire post tbh but this part was well articulated. I think many would do well to let it sink in. Although I will add something of interest you might find interesting, especially given another thing you said

the idea of catching the bus only to find myself a disembodied spirt having made a huge mistake scares me

So when I was younger, I was involved in a car crash with severe whiplash that knocked me unconscious, and then spent the next few days in a coma. But my personal experience of that was seeing it from above. I saw my body, our car, the car that hit us, the various people coming and going, the traffic build up down the street, etc. I say "my" body because that's how the world sees it, but in that state it meant nothing more to me than anything else in the scene and there was certainly no emotional attachment to it.

Later, when "I" returned to the body, it was a massive disappointment. I went from this surreal space that felt far more like my true "home" than any place in this world back into this body that I had to see and interact with the world through again. It sucked. I wanted to go back. Not because I was suicidal beforehand - but because that place was just better.

Now I feel like I know something through experience that most people don't, that might relate to what happens immediately when we die, and your quote there may just be closer than you think to reality (although the regret part seems less likely). Although I also sense it is a small snippet of the immediate post death period with a big unknown after that, and it's not even a guarantee to be that much. Still it might be an "experiential" take of interest to you. I've also since discovered it aligns with an astonishing number of other near death experiences from all sorts of cultures and times.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

Although I also sense it is a small snippet of the immediate post death period with a big unknown after that, and it's not even a guarantee to be that much. Still it might be an "experiential" take of interest to you. I've also since discovered it aligns with an astonishing number of other near death experiences from all sorts of cultures and times.

Thank you for sharing your out of body experience! A few of us here are familiar with NDE reports, especially now that there are entire websites and youtube channels dedicated to the subject. I also appreciating first hand accounts and anecdotal reports as they seem more trustworthy. Not wanting to come back into the body is a common theme and many NDE'rs go through a period of depression. I sometimes go through a lesser experience of that when I have a really good dream and then wake up and have to go about normal life..

I agree with you about the immediate post-death state most likely being temporary and the great beyond is something we don't and possibly can't now from realm of the living. I did try some fasting once after reading about the VSED method on alt.holiday back in the day. I started to feel my spirit or soul "decoupling" from my body and had a vivid dream where I was a star on the edge of the solar system having no human form. The thought of an afterlife doesn't set me at ease however. It makes me more concerned about how the conditions of my current life came to be and that death may only be a temporary escape which feels like an existential mental bind like some sort of cosmic booby trap. I tend to get carried away with this so I can't say it's a particularly heathy viewpoint. In the past just powering through new goals has offset it, I actually thought I had conquered this mindset a long time ago but here I am and it's much harder to turn a new page this time around.

I'm not really sure why I've chosen to comment & doubt I had anything useful to add, so I might just say goodnight & thanks for the read, OP.

Thank you, I appreciate your reply!

 

[Apathy79]

It makes me more concerned about how the conditions of my current life came to be and that death may only be a temporary escape which feels like an existential mental bind like some sort of cosmic booby trap

I think this is a fear of many suicidal people. I also think it is most likely to be accurate, insofar as what happens after death I expect to be something, not nothing, although the nature of that something isn't at all clear to me. And while I base that assessment on some related experience as described, it's still subject to your earlier caveat about being faith-based at its core, because I am still here, I haven't experienced death itself.

I get that's not a comforting thought for many people. I suppose to soften it, even if it is true, death is still a permanent escape from this body and brain, which might be enough for some.

 

[Lapdog6795]

All the best on the path for recovery man!
On the note of courage and suicide though, I don't understand, why people feel more dignified when they decide to stick around no matter how miserable their life is and think of others decision as less dignified when they decide to go on their own?
If you see logically, all those things just exist in our minds and ends when our lives end. I don't see any dignity or courage hanging somewhere in the universe!
Death is death man, whether you die with "dignity" in some euthanasia program or by drinking SN while listening to your favorite song.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

I don't understand, why people feel more dignified when they decide to stick around no matter how miserable their life is and think of others decision as less dignified when they decide to go on their own?

It's because I help take care of two relatives that are near the end of their own lives and rely upon me. I don't want to leave them them in the lurch. To me that's dying like a punk and not dignified. I don't think mindlessly staying alive is necessarily dignified in and of itself if that makes sense.

 

[AllWentWrong]

In my meanderings on the Internet to neighborhoods of philosophical discussion and metaphysics the topic of suicide comes up here and there. Places where NDEs, afterlife, reincarnation, prison planet and Christianity are discussed are where I tend to land.

Almost always the question of suicide comes down to courage versus cowardice. Suicide is spoken of in hushed tones. In some religions a suicide isn't given a burial on consecrated ground and even the family is sometimes shunned. I've heard it damns you to hell and it's spitting in God's eye for the gift of life.

From those inclined toward Eastern thought I've heard it undo's the totality of all lessons one has learned through numerous incarnation and one has to start from the very beginning. I would have to start as a bug and progressively work my way up the food chain only to once again face life with relative abundance I should be grateful for but with just enough problems to make it a psychic hell. If I can face that kind of life to the end, perhaps I can attain what? Reborn both wealthy AND well adjusted and perhaps even lucky on top of that? And from that lofty perch I can look down upon the billions in misery and poverty and stoically tell them that their suffering is the entry fee to be like me? Just hang in there. eh?

So suicide is seen as a great relinquishment of the duty that's been bestowed upon us in vague contractual terms with no means for renegotiation and no return warranty despite the product being sometimes damaged off-the-shelf. It's the great "no call, no show" to the workhouse of life. "You'd better have a good reason" they'll say.

I'll be honest, the idea of catching the bus only to find myself a disembodied spirt having made a huge mistake scares me. So does the "lake of fire" so does reincarnating a zillion times, so does eternal blackness, and yet so does eternal life and having to remember all my mistakes or having to answer to those that have made less of them. I can't find a truly agreeable scenario but I wouldn't mind a break.

And here we are in this little community where we attempt to solve the dilemma of SI and muster the courage to make our grand and final exit in a world where what we view as courage is considered cowardice. And I have to say that I really don't know. I don't know how one CAN know without the tangible certainty of what happens after death. And yet, having such knowledge would entirely remove the tension between worlds removing both the weight and consequence of the act.

No one really knows this in a way that can be demonstrated to others. Not the most faithful religious person nor the most hard-nosed materialist despite the certainty with which they make their claims. At the end of the day it all ends with "trust me bro". A belief in anything, even nothing, requires faith.

And whose to say the act can be summed up by binary values? Maybe some suicides are cowardly and others courageous. Some are acts of mercy to one's self or caregivers and others are done in revenge. Some are a matter of practicality and others are done in passion. Some are done in foolishness and others with careful deliberation. Some are for political statements or as a sacrifice for a greater good.

I have been stuck in the deliberation stage for too long. I have my means and methods figured out but now it seems that excessively pondering about it is counter productive to just doing it or attempting to recover.

I aspire to acts of courage and dignity in both life and death. Right now I stick around as a matter of dignity. Dignity may in fact be the most important factor in whether or not a person decides to catch the bus. Heck, even the legal euthanasian program in the US is called "Death with Dignity". Or when the Samurai's committed seppuku it was an act to restore their dignity and honor. Whether it be abuse, addiction, poverty, disgrace, regret, homelessness, sickness or disability much of these conditions assail our sense of dignity and also agency. If I can slowly restore both my dignity and agency, perhaps I can recover. So it looks like it's time to start browsing the Recovery section of SaSu.

Thoreau and Emerson moved me in their writing. I was born and raised CHristian. THose guys believed you go back to the universal soul when you die. It is a great concept. I feel like I'm one with the soul when in nature.

 

[Lapdog6795]

It's because I help take care of two relatives that are near the end of their own lives and rely upon me. I don't want to leave them them in the lurch. To me that's dying like a punk and not dignified. I don't think mindlessly staying alive is necessarily dignified in and of itself if that makes sense.

You're doing a great work on the basis of morality and ethics by taking care of them. And they're lucky to have you by their side.

But what I'm saying is morality and ethics are man-made stories. Do you see them existing anywhere else other than in our heads?

I agree you're doing the work of dignity, other humans will also agree. Because we share the same stories and concepts.

I don't see a chimpanzee coming and giving a pat on your back saying: "good work my man". I don't see the universe or whatever exists outside of that giving even a tiny shit about our concepts called dignity, courage, or cowardice.

All I'm saying is don't restrict yourself in any way because some people think something is dignified and something is not. At the end, who cares!

 

[AreWeWinning]

So suicide is seen as a great relinquishment of the duty that's been bestowed upon us in vague contractual terms with no means for renegotiation and no return warranty despite the product being sometimes damaged off-the-shelf.

How is the product damaged off-the-shelf? What are you talking about? If this reincarnation stuff exists (which I don't believe it does), then suffering is just part of the challenge. Otherwise, what would be the point? What would make it a 'test'? You just hate the game and want to change the rules to your own liking. But that's not how it works. Again, assuming this is what you believe in... Which I assume you do, otherwise why would you be thinking about such things.

I wouldn't mind a break.

Do you think your God cares?

No one really knows this in a way that can be demonstrated to others. Not the most faithful religious person nor the most hard-nosed materialist despite the certainty with which they make their claims. At the end of the day it all ends with "trust me bro". A belief in anything, even nothing, requires faith.

Yes. Very true. And if that is true, why think about it at all? Like, seriously! What's even the point in thinking about it??

It's not about what comes after - which you cannot know - but what is here in life. Do you enjoy it? Can you carry on? Yes or no. Make your decision based on what you know, which is your life. Thinking about afterlife and whatnot leads nowhere.

And whose to say the act can be summed up by binary values? Maybe some suicides are cowardly and others courageous. Some are acts of mercy to one's self or caregivers and others are done in revenge. Some are a matter of practicality and others are done in passion. Some are done in foolishness and others with careful deliberation. Some are for political statements or as a sacrifice for a greater good.

Are you worried about afterlife and reincarnation, or are you worried about how you are perceived by other (living) people? The two are not the same. Seems like you're confused about what you're really worried about. Or do you think the fact whether it's a courageous or cowardly act somehow affects what your 'next life' is going to be like? Then, again, it's impossible to know either way, so why even think about it?

I aspire to acts of courage and dignity in both life and death. Right now I stick around as a matter of dignity. Dignity may in fact be the most important factor in whether or not a person decides to catch the bus.

Ok, so, it's about your dignity. Which again, makes me confused about what afterlife or reincarnation has to do with it. Your whole post is confusing, and it's unclear to me what your main point is, what you're trying to say.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

How is the product damaged off-the-shelf? What are you talking about?

Some people are born handicapped, mentally ill, to abusive families etc, that's what I mean.

You just hate the game and want to change the rules to your own liking. But that's not how it works.

Define "the game". Who doesn't want to change the rules? Many people are able to change the rules. That's why people vote. That's why legislation is pushed, people protest, riot, look for life hacks or any number of actions and that's why people invent things.

Do you think your God cares?

This is the type rhetorical question that radical fundamentalist believers in atheist materialism are fond of asking. They claim they aren't part of a religion yet endlessly proselytize to convince others to believe in a great nothing. *declines pamphlet and closes door*

Like, seriously! What's even the point in thinking about it??

This is an Internet discussion forum where people share their thoughts. Why read and reply to it?

Thinking about afterlife and whatnot leads nowhere.

Well the great Taoists, Bodhisattvas, Stoics and Saints all thought, spoke and wrote about the after life not to mention the many mystical traditions. Thinking about the afterlife entails abstract thinking making it one of the hallmarks of the human condition.

Are you worried about....it's impossible to know either way, so why even think about it?

Concerned is the better definition. Because I still find value in pondering the unknown.

Your whole post is confusing, and it's unclear to me what your main point is, what you're trying to say.

That's fair. The "point" of my post was to express some of my thoughts and viewpoints around recurring topics on this board related to survival instinct, the afterlife and the dilemma of living. I did not seek to convince anyone of anything but rather express thoughts that can't be expressed elsewhere without social repercussions.

There are members here with their own dedicated threads expressing their thoughts for no other reason but to express them and they have THOUSANDS of posts under them. And you know what? That's okay, Maybe just getting it out there into the void of the Internet and seeing who answers IS the point. And for that reason I thank you for your contribution and dialogue.

 

[DOHARDTHINGS24]

This is the type rhetorical question

Well, that escalated after I put myself to bed.
I just wanted to attempt to lighten the mood (on a suicide forum, ffs) with this observation
- a question is only rhetorical if you don't answer it
& then I'll exit the thread...
Best of luck to all.

 

[whyyyyyyyy]

I enjoyed reading this, you laid the whole thing out quite nicely. I think you hit upon the main reason why people visit this board, which is that desire for certainty. We are fed up with the hard work of existence, we have a desire for deliverance, and we're optimistic and almost ready to take this radical step. We just want that sureness that it won't be a regrettable action.

Spoiler alert though, you can never be really sure about the choice. It seems like it's necessarily a leap of faith, having reviewed my thoughts that are very similar to yours. We technically never know anything, not even if the floor we're standing on will still be beneath us in a second from now. There's no way to prove anything, therefore you never know, and nobody does. I like your discussion about the various reasons people do it. I feel like most of us can relate to all the main types of suicidal rationale in some way or other, but we would all just like to be sure it's the right thing to do. But like I said, you can never have that.

Even if you got an ultra realistic vision of your dead loved ones saying it's alright and it's safe to move on, or something equally compelling, like some amazing scientific evidence of life after death, you still wouldn't really know what happens until you actually do it. You just don't. I wish there were more to it than that somehow. There is compelling cues that might arise to you, but ultimately it's always a leap of faith that doing it will liberate you from whatever you're trying to escape, which you don't actually know if it will or not.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

I think you hit upon the main reason why people visit this board, which is that desire for certainty.

I think you've really condensed it down closer to it's core. Yes, a sense of certainty drives courage. And since certainty can never be fully attained as you've said, conviction supplies fuel for a leap of faith.

This also reminds me that we as humans have dualistic needs for both certainty and uncertainty/novelty. As it pertains to suicide, it is when we arrive at certainty that our present life cannot improve that our mind entertains ideas of "what if?" we exchange the certainty of a miserable existence for the uncertainty of the great beyond.

Conversely, if our lives are filled with chaos and instability we may desire or project what we imagine to be the stability or reprieve offered by death or non-existence and the theoretical certainty it may offer.

Even outside the topic of suicide our lives are governed by the seesaw of how we manage the predictable aspects of life with our desire of novelty. Money factors in because it affords us some certainty regarding our stability but also allows exploration of novelty.

If one wants to ctb, it's best done under the assumption that one is fairly certain things won't get better in a non-delusional sense paired with a leap of faith that ending things will deliver one into a desired better fate even if that fate is non-existence.

If one want's to recover, one must have reasonable faith that one can better one's fate and act with conviction to make it so.

Of course there are a myriad of factors into the choose to consciously live, ctb or simply linger around which is why I don't blanket condemn suicide as many do. Lots to thin about here. Thank you for thoughts on this.

.

 

[whyyyyyyyy]

"If one wants to ctb, it's best done under the assumption that one is fairly certain things won't get better in a non-delusional sense paired with a leap of faith that ending things will deliver one into a desired better fate even if that fate is non-existence."

Well said ^^ that's probably the best we can do, and it's strange because so many suicides occur in which these conditions aren't really there. That's not to say they're wrong for their choice, it just adds to the mystery. I think in mainstream discourse on suicide we are of course frustratingly bombarded with pro-life ideas, that there's always more to live for, the life is inherently worth clinging to. These are of course, just assumptions. I think the strong argument against suicide, one thing that keeps me and probably many others, is something like this:

'If I kill myself, I might lose what I have now. At least I have the certainty of the known if I stay alive. I have my life as it is right now, as imperfect as it may be, at least I have it. If I kill myself, who knows what will follow?'

Through hard-to-verify impressions I've had from trustworthy, normal people in my life, I feel that it's been hinted at that some after life really is the situation (though, like gravity, it can't be proved true, it just seems to predominantly occur), and that one should be scrambling to kill themself the second they transgress some certain objective standard.

What I'm talking about here is a subtle, very little-discussed, but nonetheless very real, matter of human development. I think it's not so much about what you externally seem to have going for you in your life, but more about the way you have unfolded inwardly as a human in this life, in a very particular yet universal way. If you hit a snag in this track of human development, you've glitched, and even if you appear to have a life worth living, it's all null, you have to re-roll the spawn so that you don't go further down that road, so building more and more code on top of a faulty node.

There's this joke that Dave Chapelle told that seemingly hints at this, about Anthony Bourdain. It's worth a google search, but the gist is that Anthony Bourdain had the perfect life- his job was to go around drinking and eating from the finest places, exotic locations all over the world, and hang out with celebrities, do whatever he wanted basically. Yet he killed himself. Meanwhile, Dave knew a guy who was gifted academically, had briefly been successful, and had lost everything to a nasty divorce, and had been stuck working in retail for years. Yet, it had never occurred to him to kill himself.

I think this joke is an explicit invitation to ponder why this seems to be a common pattern. Why do people with seemingly great lives end themselves, while others endure hellish hardships unquestioningly, without even considering suicide. I think, maybe, it hints at something deeper, beyond worldly externalities, but again, something specific and universal that can happen to a person, that would necessitate a suicide.

I am also reminded of this CS Lewis quote: "If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man." Maybe all us lurkers on this forum are giving life too much effort, when all we're doing is fighting a force we can't conquer, and avoiding a solution so effective so as to basically be the only way to progress, which is to just return home, die and return to the source.

I am kind of crazy for saying all this by any mainstream standard, and I'm not making any conclusions, but this is just a taste of what I see. Yet obviously, it's not yet been sufficient to compel me to action. I don't think any thing can ever "cause" it, so to speak. Like you need this or that, then you'll be ready. At the end of the day, it's always just a choice. The way to make it happen is to just do it. "Do or do not", as Yoda says.

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

and it's strange because so many suicides occur in which these conditions aren't really there.

Haha yeah and that's why to be "an hero" became such meme to ridicule frivolous suicides. I'm guilty of such judgments myself despite my own ideation.

*For those not familiar, it came from a poorly phrased Myspace eulogy where the author kept saying the deceased who ctb was "an hero" for how he suffered and his bravery. Someone did some digging into the deceased social media and saw something about a lost iphone and concocted the idea that the person had killed themselves over the lost phone. The meme critiques a generation so frivolous as to ctb over a lost phone and be called heroic for it. It is quite funny but likely untrue yet kids cruelly harassed his family in extremely bad taste like sending pics of an iphone on his grave which is terrible.

'If I kill myself, I might lose what I have now. At least I have the certainty of the known if I stay alive. I have my life as it is right now, as imperfect as it may be, at least I have it. If I kill myself, who knows what will follow?'

Have you seen the 3 part lecture from the Yale professor that breaks down the logic of suffering and suicide? It's pretty good especially for those on the fence. Here's part 1.

I think it's not so much about what you externally seem to have going for you in your life, but more about the way you have unfolded inwardly as a human in this life, in a very particular yet universal way. If you hit a snag in this track of human development, you've glitched, and even if you appear to have a life worth living, it's all null, you have to re-roll the spawn so that you don't go further down that road, so building more and more code on top of a faulty node.

This very accurately sums up my position for being here on SaSu. I like many aspects of myself. my interests and my mind however through fate, glitches, missteps I find myself so deviated from my life path (dharma?) that I barely recognize my life to the point of derealization. Every day forward is deeper into the woods or more code on top of bad as you say. I long for a reroll or respawn.

"If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man."

To the same point as above, when it's too late to turn back, going forward is my only hope to come full circle. If that's not possible than a return to primordial source would suffice. In the mean time I have some dependents that I can't justify leaving in the lurch. So I continue to try and build up karma points in this metaphorical junkyard of a life and hope I can etch my insights onto my soul just in case I do respawn I can have some better inclinations and leanings.

I am kind of crazy for saying all this by any mainstream standard,

Yes I have to be mindful of my time here as it's easy to forget that these types of thoughts and discussions are not accepted elsewhere.

The way to make it happen is to just do it. "Do or do not", as Yoda says.

I'm fairly capable of self destruction. I have some t's to cross and i's to dot if before I leave. Per our discussion about the value in "a good death" in the other thread, I have given this subject so much study and thought that even if I didn't feel like I was in the wrong life I would still value a death on my own terms or with some intentionality. Maybe that is the ultimate meaning of my life...

 

[whyyyyyyyy]

Haha yeah and that's why to be "an hero" became such meme to ridicule frivolous suicides. I'm guilty of such judgments myself despite my own ideation.

*For those not familiar, it came from a poorly phrased Myspace eulogy where the author kept saying the deceased who ctb was "an hero" for how he suffered and his bravery. Someone did some digging into the deceased social media and saw something about a lost iphone and concocted the idea that the person had killed themselves over the lost phone. The meme critiques a generation so frivolous as to ctb over a lost phone and be called heroic for it. It is quite funny but likely untrue yet kids cruelly harassed his family in extremely bad taste like sending pics of an iphone on his grave which is terrible.

Right, oh interesting I had never heard of this. But yeah the feeling of potential frivolity/regret at what I might be throwing away is a concern, even though at other times I feel like I can see how that's just an illusory concern, like Maya (Goddess of Illusion) keeping me bound with convincing appearances of constraint.

Have you seen the 3 part lecture from the Yale professor that breaks down the logic of suffering and suicide? It's pretty good especially for those on the fence. Here's part 1.

Thank you for sharing, I will check this out.

This very accurately sums up my position for being here on SaSu. I like many aspects of myself. my interests and my mind however through fate, glitches, missteps I find myself so deviated from my life path (dharma?) that I barely recognize my life to the point of derealization. Every day forward is deeper into the woods or more code on top of bad as you say. I long for a reroll or respawn.

Right. When I say glitch, I mean physical, and in terms of my actions. It almost feels fatalistic, maybe, like I was born wrong. But in addition, or perhaps as part of that, it feels like I've reached some kind of point of no return, wherein bodymind is broken, and I've fallen out of the flow where my life can really continue. I am reminded of the indigenous martian tribesman speaking telepathically to the nonverbal autistic child in Philip K Dick's book 'Martian Time Slip': "You must die," the dark man said to him in a far-off voice. "Then you will be reborn, Do you see, child? There is nothing for you as you are now, because something went wrong and you cannot see or hear or feel. No one can help you. Do you see, child?"

To the same point as above, when it's too late to turn back, going forward is my only hope to come full circle. If that's not possible than a return to primordial source would suffice. In the mean time I have some dependents that I can't justify leaving in the lurch. So I continue to try and build up karma points in this metaphorical junkyard of a life and hope I can etch my insights onto my soul just in case I do respawn I can have some better inclinations and leanings.

Right, that idea that maybe if I just push through this life and work hard enough, then maybe I can get the desired "reset" of returning to the source without the feared apparent "loss" of my character dying. But maybe that's a foolish thing to fret over, how do I know what to trust? It's interesting that you bring up Dharma, because weirdly enough through looking at spirituality and Buddhism, I too have gained insights that have brought me great liberation already, in this very life. It's like, I'm willing and able to manage the strife of this life, if I really have no other option. But I am drawn to suicide if it's really a far better alternative, like perhaps some kind of objectively more practical path. Maybe what I feel as relative liberation, some wiser person looks at as living in a sewer!

Following this thread, a thing that I often fret about when contemplating suicide, is I worry I will lose the peace and clarity I've gained through meditation and contemplation, that I now have. I could see myself forgetting my current liberated skills of seeing emptiness in worldly things and concepts, and enduring suffering with equanimity. However, I take some solace in the following refutation of that concern: 'Whatever doesn't survive my own attempt at genuine annihilation was never really real, solid, or mine in the first place'. If I die by suicide and am born into more suffering, maybe my Samadhi wasn't that strong to begin with.

Whatever Samadhi is burned away by suicide wasn't death-proof Samadhi, so it wasn't really that deep. The only wisdom one truly accrues is that which endures regardless of any circumstance. The Buddha represents the one who sought and succeeded to transcend life and death. Therefore, even if I'm comfortable now in a limited sense, if I really want liberation, the fear of death by necessity can't stand in my way. As Seneca said, "Unhappy fellow, you are a slave to men, you are a slave to your business, you are a slave to life. For life, if courage to die be lacking, is slavery."

Yes I have to be mindful of my time here as it's easy to forget that these types of thoughts and discussions are not accepted elsewhere.

Yeah, it's not accepted anywhere. But for what it's worth, I think most of what we say is more or less agreed upon by most people... just rarely spoken out loud.

I'm fairly capable of self destruction. I have some t's to cross and i's to dot if before I leave. Per our discussion about the value in "a good death" in the other thread, I have given this subject so much study and thought that even if I didn't feel like I was in the wrong life I would still value a death on my own terms or with some intentionality. Maybe that is the ultimate meaning of my life...

Right, having dependents must make this a stronger inner conflict for you. Just a question to provoke thought: What t's and i's do you have to dot that will matter if you're already dead? Why do we worry about this if we're going to die anyway? I mean, I know why, I wrestle with the concern of 'settling affairs' before I go, but you see how it doesn't make total sense right? How do you reckon with that?

But yes, I agree that maybe this is a valid life meaning. I get the sense that this "straying from Dharma", this universally recognized hiccup or glitch in human development, is something that properly developed human adults are aware of. I mean properly developed like, they've been around this block more than a few times. I get the sense that in these people, the instinct to end one's life as soon as any crucial glitch occurs is like extremely instant and reflexive, like zero doubt. The quicker you know to clean up your mess, the more sensitive and advanced adult you are.

Through the lens of all this Dharma and Human development talk, dying intentionally does indeed seem like a modest enough life purpose: getting our bearings on learning how to properly die. Maybe you and I here are like cosmic infants, taking years of doubting and pondering to slowly develop a reflex which to more developed adults is instantaneous and executed gracefully.

Maybe!

 

[Kali_Yuga13]

like Maya (Goddess of Illusion) keeping me bound with convincing appearances of constraint.

Yeah I consider Maya, Samsara, bardos, "the Matrix" as well and even wonder if I'm already in one.

It almost feels fatalistic, maybe, like I was born wrong. But in addition, or perhaps as part of that, it feels like I've reached some kind of point of no return, wherein bodymind is broken, and I've fallen out of the flow where my life can really continue.

To some extent I thin I may have inherited a generational curse or sin from one side of my family. The details of that are deeply personal. While I have some idea of what to do about it the damage is already done.

There is nothing for you as you are now, because something went wrong and you cannot see or hear or feel.

Phillip K. Dick was truly a modern oracle. The stuff he wrote about black iron prison, gnostic themes and technocratic scenarios have unfolded in our very lifetime. I wish I had got into his works at a younger age. I really like hearing his work interpreted through a modern gnostic lens. Aeon Byte especially.

Following this thread, a thing that I often fret about when contemplating suicide, is I worry I will lose the peace and clarity I've gained through meditation and contemplation, that I now have. I could see myself forgetting my current liberated skills of seeing emptiness in worldly things and concepts, and enduring suffering with equanimity. However, I take some solace in the following refutation of that concern: 'Whatever doesn't survive my own attempt at genuine annihilation was never really real, solid, or mine in the first place'. If I die by suicide and am born into more suffering, maybe my Samadhi wasn't that strong to begin with.

Whatever Samadhi is burned away by suicide wasn't death-proof Samadhi, so it wasn't really that deep. The only wisdom one truly accrues is that which endures regardless of any circumstance.

Ah man you are perhaps the only person that phrases things in a way similar to how I think myself. Maybe I'm not a total schizo. :D. I'm also concerned about losing the insights I've gained through my mistakes in this life. Addiction has caused bitter loses and at one point I had nearly 15 years away from one particular one, I ended up relapsing which casts doubt on my having "learned my lesson" and resolve. Some of my hardest won lessons are default common sense for the average person. And what are those lessons if earning them by nature eaves me in a condition worse off and not able to apply them? It's like putting ones arm in a wood chipper to learn it will cut your arm off! Doh!

Just a question to provoke thought: What t's and i's do you have to dot that will matter if you're already dead? Why do we worry about this if we're going to die anyway? I mean, I know why, I wrestle with the concern of 'settling affairs' before I go, but you see how it doesn't make total sense right? How do you reckon with that?

The t's and i's on the mundane level is thinning down possessions, clearing some debts, making a will etc. My estranged father dumped his decrepit house and debts upon me with no will and it was a nightmare to deal with. I don't want to do that to others. I also need to gain more certainty as to how I really want to exit including what's to happen to my body. I have a few ideas and the turn-around time on this is a few years. My "recovery" is to get into a state to deal with all this and of course be of sound enough mind to be helpful to my dependents in the mean time. I don't want to find myself decoupled from my body on the astral plane and concerned about wordy affairs left undone. I feel I need a certain amount of escape velocity.

I also want to continue to purge my body and aurora of pollution as much as possible. I've managed to hold my worst addictions at bay for a coupe of years. My dreams have become more cleaner and less dark. If I had ctb a year ago when I was plagued with dreams in a dreary underworld I don't think that would be good. I'm living my life in preparation for a potential respawn.

Ideally if I can get my creative juices going, I would like to write an encoded book or painting that I may stumble upon in a next life that will jog my memory or nudge me along the right track along the lines of pic related: