Discussion My innate will to live vs logic and reality

[DeadnDusted]

There are a lot of things in life that I like, I have some dreams and hobbies and stuff I genuinely enjoy. I don't hate myself and wish nothing but to have a good life. On the flip side life decides to throw me a curveball and just like that, long term trauma, loss, regret, moral injury.

Ive waited enough and endured letting the initial pain subside, which it did to an extent. But processing my trauma and loss ironically only made me more disillusioned with the world that I truly began to subscribe to nihilism and became an anti natalist because I know logically that every being's experience is fully independent from another's, therefore even if most people have good lives, or there are plenty of good things, that doesn't cancel out the suffering since the person experiencing it gets 100% of it, so the math is always in the negative. Plus the fact that everything will be eventually wiped out and the universe will die really drives home the idea that all this suffering is for absolutely nothing, and cannot be justified by any of the good that happens in life nor a future potential that may not even end up existing.

That's why even in moments where I feel numb or even good, I still cannot justify the necessity of existence or its continuation because I know even those positive emotions are temporary distortions, since the fact of the matter is that I never wanted my reality to be this way, and my brain adapting, numbing itself out and finding joy is not healing but a mutation at best. And although I do have the drive to find a mate and reproduce I know it's an evolutionary brain hijack and it has lost any significant meaning for me that it isn't worth the effort, even intimacy is something I'm not interested in anymore.

At this point what keeps me alive is simply an irrational attachment to life driven mostly by continuous consumption of art and fiction rather than any sense of objective contentment with life. I think the only way for me to reconcile these opposing forces inside me is to somehow turn off my brain and just not question anything. I see a lot of people in my immediate environment living normally and they seem absolutely happy and carefree outside usual day to day problems.

 

[CarbonBased]

I don't understand what you mean by 'the math is always in the negative'. Otherwise, I completely agree. I'm also an existential nihilist, an anti-natalist, and a cosmic pessimist. I have held these beliefs for a while now. Enough to internalize them. That's possibly why I no longer have any dreams or hobbies. Nothing is really worth doing

 

[DeadnDusted]

I don't understand what you mean by 'the math is always in the negative'. Otherwise, I completely agree. I'm also an existential nihilist, an anti-natalist, and a cosmic pessimist. I have held these beliefs for a while now. Enough to internalize them. That's possibly why I no longer have any dreams or hobbies. Nothing is really worth doing

I meant that in the sense that the existence of positive experiences and lives does not somehow cancel out the pain and suffering of other people whereas most people operate on the logic that the pain and suffering of some is acceptable as long as others experience happiness as if it somehow averages out.

 

[Tautochrome]

By judging that everything is temporary and therefore useless, don't you in a way show a necessity of continuation? If life did continue forever and led to something grand, would you see it as valuable?

 

[CarbonBased]

I meant that in the sense that the existence of positive experiences and lives does not somehow cancel out the pain and suffering of other people whereas most people operate on the logic that the pain and suffering of some is acceptable as long as others experience happiness as if it somehow averages out.

Ah, I see. To be honest, I don't think most people believe that. Like, does you being happy about getting a promotion or something 'cancel out' a kid getting malaria in Africa? I don't think many people would agree to that

 

[DeadnDusted]

By judging that everything is temporary and therefore useless, don't you in a way show a necessity of continuation? If life did continue forever and led to something grand, would you see it as valuable?

Im not saying that temporary equals useless. One can may find meaning and pleasure even in a fruitless endeavor. What Im saying is that the desire to keep our existence as a species for as long as we can even though countless lives go down and drain and end up knowing immense pain makes it even worse given that theres no payoff at the end.

 

[Mrresearch]

There are a lot of things in life that I like, I have some dreams and hobbies and stuff I genuinely enjoy. I don't hate myself and wish nothing but to have a good life. On the flip side life decides to throw me a curveball and just like that, long term trauma, loss, regret, moral injury.

Ive waited enough and endured letting the initial pain subside, which it did to an extent. But processing my trauma and loss ironically only made me more disillusioned with the world that I truly began to subscribe to nihilism and became an anti natalist because I know logically that every being's experience is fully independent from another's, therefore even if most people have good lives, or there are plenty of good things, that doesn't cancel out the suffering since the person experiencing it gets 100% of it, so the math is always in the negative. Plus the fact that everything will be eventually wiped out and the universe will die really drives home the idea that all this suffering is for absolutely nothing, and cannot be justified by any of the good that happens in life nor a future potential that may not even end up existing.

That's why even in moments where I feel numb or even good, I still cannot justify the necessity of existence or its continuation because I know even those positive emotions are temporary distortions, since the fact of the matter is that I never wanted my reality to be this way, and my brain adapting, numbing itself out and finding joy is not healing but a mutation at best. And although I do have the drive to find a mate and reproduce I know it's an evolutionary brain hijack and it has lost any significant meaning for me that it isn't worth the effort, even intimacy is something I'm not interested in anymore.

At this point what keeps me alive is simply an irrational attachment to life driven mostly by continuous consumption of art and fiction rather than any sense of objective contentment with life. I think the only way for me to reconcile these opposing forces inside me is to somehow turn off my brain and just not question anything. I see a lot of people in my immediate environment living normally and they seem absolutely happy and carefree outside usual day to day problems.

Yeah, you are probably right about just about everything you said. Although there is something you might want to consider.

There is one thing I'm still hung up on. I find it interesting how you describe yourself as getting nothing out of positive emotions, since they are usually irrational and can be reduced to simple distortions. But then you also speak about pain and suffering. You go on to talk about questioning the necessity of existence, which makes a lot of sense based on the context you provided.

What I'm trying to get at is the following: basically all of our emotions can, in some way, be traced back to evolutionary selection processes. But that doesn't make them entirely unimportant. And I don't think they are unimportant to you either, since the pain you've been experiencing seems to have influenced your decision to make a post here.

I would also argue that the great majority of people on this site do have some struggles or at least some negative feelings.

At the end of the day, you'll only feel what you feel, no matter where those emotions come from. And as banal as this might sound, there also seems to be a causal relation between happiness and, well… happiness. The moment you interpret your happiness as a distortion of the real world, your internal experience might already start to differ slightly from what you would otherwise experience as happiness.

I still very much understand your point, and yes, life does not make sense, and it probably never will.

 

[Tautochrome]

It sounded like something being temporary meant it's inherently worse.
"Plus the fact that everything will be eventually wiped out and the universe will die really drives home the idea that all this suffering is for absolutely nothing, and cannot be justified by any of the good that happens in life nor a future potential that may not even end up existing."
So again, if this suffering was for something, do you think it would change your outlook?

I know, pretty hard to imagine the abstract ultimate reward. Even religious ideas like heaven aren't really a conclusion to the human project. I'm also an AN btw, but I try to dismantle my own reasoning from time to time

Im not saying that temporary equals useless. One can may find meaning and pleasure even in a fruitless endeavor. What Im saying is that the desire to keep our existence as a species for as long as we can even though countless lives go down and drain and end up knowing immense pain makes it even worse given that theres no payoff at the end.

 

[DeadnDusted]

Ah, I see. To be honest, I don't think most people believe that. Like, does you being happy about getting a promotion or something 'cancel out' a kid getting malaria in Africa? I don't think many people would agree to that

I think it's more observable on a macro scale as most tend to go by a utilitarian point of view by believing that because good things exist in life that means we should keep going even if there are casualties along the way which I think invalidates those negative experiences and allows the inevitable potential for even more suffering to come.

 

[Hvergelmir]

I meant that in the sense that the existence of positive experiences and lives does not somehow cancel out the pain and suffering of other people whereas most people operate on the logic that the pain and suffering of some is acceptable as long as others experience happiness as if it somehow averages out.

If you're not willing to average A and B, you also can't sum them, or conclude that the total is negative.
You somehow need to convert them to the same unit to compare them - let's call it "meaning".

Your claim seem to be that the sum of everything negative has higher meaning, than the sum of everything positive.
That's a very subjective evaluation. It's not logic.

For the positives to not influence the average, the amount of meaning given to the positive has to be zero.
Once again, very subjective.

 

[CarbonBased]

I think it's more observable on a macro scale as most tend to go by a utilitarian point of view by believing that because good things exist in life that means we should keep going even if there are casualties along the way which I think invalidates those negative experiences and allows the inevitable potential for even more suffering to come.

I don't think the thing about most people following utilitarian ethics is true. Around 4.4 billion people alive today are either christian or muslim. The doctrines of both of these religions contain clearly non-circumstantial rules/laws of morality, which are deontological in nature, not consequential. When the bible says "you shall not steal", it doesn't allow for any possibility for you to steal without violating the rules of the religion. Not even if your life or the lives of many people literally depend on it. No exceptions.
I think that in practice, and regardless of religion, most people unknowingly follow a combination of these two ethical frameworks. They might say, for example, that molesting a child is always wrong regardless of the circumstances, but stealing can be okay if that's the only way you can provide for your starving family (or something like that).

 

[DeadnDusted]

It sounded like something being temporary meant it's inherently worse.
"Plus the fact that everything will be eventually wiped out and the universe will die really drives home the idea that all this suffering is for absolutely nothing, and cannot be justified by any of the good that happens in life nor a future potential that may not even end up existing."
So again, if this suffering was for something, do you think it would change your outlook?

I know, pretty hard to imagine the abstract ultimate reward. Even religious ideas like heaven aren't really a conclusion to the human project. I'm also an AN btw, but I try to dismantle my own reasoning from time to time

In my opinion even if I could make an argument for it in the case it led to something I'd still have to ask what is it that could justify it and most of the time I'd say my answer is no because I can't really imagine any satisfactory answer. I used to be religious in the past and what paradise promises most of the time in texts is simply material things to incite believers and also kind of implies some form of brainwashing to make one happy regadless of their circumstances in this life.
The only way I could personally justify existence is if somehow the universe existed from the get go without any suffering and zero sum situations.

I don't think the thing about most people following utilitarian ethics is true. Around 4.4 billion people alive today are either christian or muslim. The doctrines of both of these religions contain clearly non-circumstantial rules/laws of morality, which are deontological in nature, not consequential. When the bible says "you shall not steal", it doesn't allow for any possibility for you to steal without violating the rules of the religion. Not even if your life or the lives of many people literally depend on it. No exceptions.
I think that in practice, and regardless of religion, most people unknowingly follow a combination of these two ethical frameworks. They might say, for example, that molesting a child is always wrong regardless of the circumstances, but stealing can be okay if that's the only way you can provide for your starving family (or something like that).

I agree, however I think that even those religions are a mixed bag that in the end favor their own propagation and boosting their numbers at the expense of others, so for example while islam has rules based on duty between people within it, it usually does not accord the same principles for people outside it or even those in different hierarchies in it which can make people blind or even sanction things that are humanely horrifying (like sexual exploitation of slaves and prisoners of war) "as long as god approves and the system is running as intended"

If you're not willing to average A and B, you also can't sum them, or conclude that the total is negative.
You somehow need to convert them to the same unit to compare them - let's call it "meaning".

Your claim seem to be that the sum of everything negative has higher meaning, than the sum of everything positive.
That's a very subjective evaluation. It's not logic.

For the positives to not influence the average, the amount of meaning given to the positive has to be zero.
Once again, very subjective.

True, my claim hinges on the assumption that pain should be assigned heavier weight than pleasure, which I dont think I can really prove with pure logic but is a position that I can only derive from observation and experience.

Yeah, you are probably right about just about everything you said. Although there is something you might want to consider.

There is one thing I'm still hung up on. I find it interesting how you describe yourself as getting nothing out of positive emotions, since they are usually irrational and can be reduced to simple distortions. But then you also speak about pain and suffering. You go on to talk about questioning the necessity of existence, which makes a lot of sense based on the context you provided.

What I'm trying to get at is the following: basically all of our emotions can, in some way, be traced back to evolutionary selection processes. But that doesn't make them entirely unimportant. And I don't think they are unimportant to you either, since the pain you've been experiencing seems to have influenced your decision to make a post here.

I would also argue that the great majority of people on this site do have some struggles or at least some negative feelings.

At the end of the day, you'll only feel what you feel, no matter where those emotions come from. And as banal as this might sound, there also seems to be a causal relation between happiness and, well… happiness. The moment you interpret your happiness as a distortion of the real world, your internal experience might already start to differ slightly from what you would otherwise experience as happiness.

I still very much understand your point, and yes, life does not make sense, and it probably never will.

Ah I should clarify that I dont really see all emotions as unimportant as what you said is correct, they are more like signals that reflect one's reality. And simply disregarding them is no way to live as humans.

In my case, the reason why I began seeing some of them as distortions happened due to a personal traumatic experience which somewhat flipped something inside me and made it possible for me to find some sort of joy in things which have always been against my values and that normally hurt me. thats when I realized that they arent exactly all truthful.