Methods with lower SI

[Nightfoot]

I realize all methods include a certain amount of SI, and that some—like jumping—have a lot. I'm wondering which methods might have lower SI without sacrificing effectiveness, or is that just a pipe dream?

 

[Vivissa]

What is SI?

 

[itsover14]

What is SI?

Survival instinct, it's what makes people hesitate to kill themselves even when very, very certain they want to die.

And to answer OP, I have wondered this myself. I mean, if I could get that cocktail that Dignatus serves up and be guaranteed no pain and a peaceful exit, would that help?

How much of the hesitation is fear of pain vs just SI?

At the very least, all the hours we spend contemplating potentially painful last moments is definitely quite cruel :(

 

[Nightfoot]

How much of the hesitation is fear of pain vs just SI?

At the very least, all the hours we spend contemplating potentially painful last moments is definitely quite cruel :(

It is cruel, especially when both fear of pain and SI are present in those thoughts.

 

[hell toupee]

I realize all methods include a certain amount of SI, and that some—like jumping—have a lot. I'm wondering which methods might have lower SI without sacrificing effectiveness, or is that just a pipe dream?

I think it depends on what kind of person you are.

Some people are just able to say "fuck it" and do what's necessary.

Other people like myself, get inside their head a little too much, and I think a lot of what we call SI is fear of failing, or fear of struggling/pain/panic.

When it comes time to CTB, I will do my best to get to the point where I just say fuck it and go for it. Thinking about it too much destroys me.

 

[Nightfoot]

I think it depends on what kind of person you are.

Some people are just able to say "fuck it" and do what's necessary.

Other people like myself, get inside their head a little too much, and I think a lot of what we call SI is fear of failing, or fear of struggling/pain/panic.

When it comes time to CTB, I will do my best to get to the point where I just say fuck it and go for it. Thinking about it too much destroys me.

I get inside my head way too much. I think you're probably right about fear being mistaken for SI. Not a comforting thought, as that's multiple dragons to face.

 

[hell toupee]

I get inside my head way too much. I think you're probably right about fear being mistaken for SI. Not a comforting thought, as that's multiple dragons to face.

Absolutely. I hate overthinking everything. I mean, it can be a positive trait sometimes, but most of the time it just drives me crazy.

Personally, I'm not afraid to die. And that's not because I am some tough guy or anything. I am not that. I just don't believe death is the end, in fact, I'm convinced of it. So I'm actually looking forward to it.

My fear and trepidation comes from not wanting to suffer, and thinking about my elderly mother finding me - the look on her face, the crying, the astonishment (she has no idea I want to CTB and thinks everything is normal, which it is - it's just I don't have any future of a life left).

 

[Nightfoot]

My fear and trepidation comes from not wanting to suffer, and thinking about my elderly mother finding me - the look on her face, the crying, the astonishment (she has no idea I want to CTB and thinks everything is normal, which it is - it's just I don't have any future of a life left).

Described me perfectly, except for things being normal. I suffer from severe depression, so not normal at all.

 

[hell toupee]

Described me perfectly, except for things being normal. I suffer from severe depression, so not normal at all.

I'm sorry to hear that. Depression can be crippling, I know.

While I don't have clinical depression, after I lost everything, including my best friend (wife), I went in to a very dark acute depression. Was hospitalized for 5 weeks and they put me on so many different medications my head was spinning. Antianxiety meds, antidepressants, nerve meds, muscle relaxants, anti PTSD meds, you name it, I was on it. Made me sleep all the time and I absolutely HATED waking up. I still do. My favorite time of the day is right before I fall asleep, and worst time of day is first thing in the morning - knowing I have a full day ahead of me. I wish I was one of those people who wake up excited for the day.

I know meds can certainly help some people, but I feel it can make things worse for others - and I was one of those who was worse off. Threw them all in the garbage and felt a thousand times better. That's just me though, I know a lot of people have to titrate down slowly, which makes it a long, miserable experience.

 

[Crescendo]

I would venture a guess that the methods which produce the least amount of SI (on average) are those that are not commonly associated with harmful states.

For instance, the pain of jumping from a height is something we've all experienced to an extent, and we store the knowledge of that feeling. Drowning is another example; we've all felt the discomfort that comes from holding a breath underwater for too long. Given how our brains are programmed to be harm-avoidant, it takes nerve to defy that programming and intentionally perform an action that we associate with pain.

But for something more artificial that we don't associate with negative affective states, there's less opportunity for the mind to produce fear. Of the methods I'm aware of, the ones which most closely resemble this criteria are inert gas and carbon monoxide. The free breathing of ambient air is as natural and as harmless of a process as it gets.

I don't have any specific sources to support this theory, it's just a guess.

 

[hell toupee]

I would venture a guess that the methods which produce the least amount of SI (on average) are those that are not commonly associated with harmful states.

For instance, the pain of jumping from a height is something we've all experienced to an extent, and we store the knowledge of that feeling. Drowning is another example; we've all felt the discomfort that comes from holding a breath underwater for too long. Given how our brains are programmed to be harm-avoidant, it takes nerve to defy that programming and intentionally perform an action that we associate with pain.

But for something more artificial that we don't associate with negative affective states, there's less opportunity for the mind to produce fear. Of the methods I'm aware of, the ones which most closely resemble this criteria are inert gas and carbon monoxide. The free breathing of ambient air is as natural and as harmless of a process as it gets.

I don't have any specific sources to support this theory, it's just a guess.

I think you have it pretty close to correct.

One thing that I keep coming across in my research, is this idea that a lot of people "leave their bodies" before anything terrible happens. You can assign that to a physiological response from the brain (ie releasing chemicals that shield us from trauma), or something more spiritual, that doesn't really matter.

For example, you would think that slipping and falling off of a cliff would be nightmarish as your body ragdolls off of rocks and tumbles to the ground. However, a study of mountain climbers who had done just that and lived, almost all reported it as a euphoric experience. They claimed they felt no pain, no panic, and indeed claim to be outside of their bodies, watching it tumble down the mountain without an emotional feelings of what was happening to their body.

Same with people who survived hangings - in that case, however, we know it's because the carotids are *usually* occluded right away causing rapid loss of consciousness. But even before the loss of consciousness, there are a lot of anecdotal reports of people not claiming to feel any pain whatsoever (this is full suspension, partial is different and I believe there are valid reasons for that).

The problem is that nothing is guaranteed, and even if the chances are low that you might suffer/panic, those chances still exist. And for someone like me who has a bad habit of overthinking everything, it causes me to be hesitant about kicking over the stool, so to speak.

 

[NellyGoes]

Personally, I'm not afraid to die. And that's not because I am some tough guy or anything. I am not that. I just don't believe death is the end, in fact, I'm convinced of it. So I'm actually looking forward to it.

Do you ever waver in or doubt in your belief in this? I generally share your belief. I've felt so at peace and "knowing" for the past several months!
But I'm struggling pretty bad rn. I think one of my biggest fears is that the afterlife may not be real. That it's all just a fantasy and nothing actually exists. I've lost loved ones that I love more than the universe and the thought of not seeing them again is literally almost breaking me apart.

 

[hell toupee]

Do you ever waver in or doubt in your belief in this? I generally share your belief. I've felt so at peace and "knowing" for the past several months!
But I'm struggling pretty bad rn. I think one of my biggest fears is that the afterlife may not be real. That it's all just a fantasy and nothing actually exists. I've lost loved ones that I love more than the universe and the thought of not seeing them again is literally almost breaking me apart.

No, I don't waver in that belief. I only call it a "belief" so as not to catch flak from others. But to me, it is a truth.

Why? You might ask.

A few reasons. I have never been religious or in to stuff like the paranormal. The problem with that kind of stuff, including all manner of philosophical writings, is I can find logical contradictions in all of it.

I read a book awhile ago that just completely made sense to me. Then my wife passed and I had a set of very bizarre experiences that I can't explain away with coincidence. I also started to watch a lot of NDE videos, and they completely coincided with the book I had read some time ago. This book was literally like every page was a revelation. It just all made complete sense.

If you honestly would like to know what happens after you die, you can watch the video below - it is a summary of the book - "Seth Speaks" by Jane Roberts.

What I like to do is go in to the settings on Youtube videos and make the speed 1.25x so I don't have to listen to them talk slowly.

I highly encourage you to watch the video - I think it will put your mind at ease - it has for me, and believe me, that's not easy. I overthink and overanalyze EVERYTHING! I can find no questions unanswered with this material - it literally explains why we are here and what the purpose of life is. If you prefer reading, let me know, and I'll attach a transcript of the video.

Just give it a shot - it very well could change your perspective on everything - and I don't mean that lightly.

 

[NellyGoes]

No, I don't waver in that belief. I only call it a "belief" so as not to catch flak from others. But to me, it is a truth.

Why? You might ask.

A few reasons. I have never been religious or in to stuff like the paranormal. The problem with that kind of stuff, including all manner of philosophical writings, is I can find logical contradictions in all of it.

I read a book awhile ago that just completely made sense to me. Then my wife passed and I had a set of very bizarre experiences that I can't explain away with coincidence. I also started to watch a lot of NDE videos, and they completely coincided with the book I had read some time ago. This book was literally like every page was a revelation. It just all made complete sense.

If you honestly would like to know what happens after you die, you can watch the video below - it is a summary of the book - "Seth Speaks" by Jane Roberts.

What I like to do is go in to the settings on Youtube videos and make the speed 1.25x so I don't have to listen to them talk slowly.

I highly encourage you to watch the video - I think it will put your mind at ease - it has for me, and believe me, that's not easy. I overthink and overanalyze EVERYTHING! I can find no questions unanswered with this material - it literally explains why we are here and what the purpose of life is. If you prefer reading, let me know, and I'll attach a transcript of the video.

Just give it a shot - it very well could change your perspective on everything - and I don't mean that lightly.

Thank you so much for your answer! I'm checking out the video. I really appreciate it.

I've never been religious either, but very open spiritually.
I'm so very sorry for the loss of your wife. I can't imagine how difficult it must be for you. I've lost my most important loved one a few months ago as well. The pain is agonizing.
I've asked the universe for several signs over the past months (also meditated, prayed while crying, broken down, etc etc), but nothing (that I could discern) has come through. Sometimes I wonder if — since I've already decided to ctb (and I had decided that even before my loved one had passed) — if the spirit world thinks not to "waste" signs on someone who doesn't need hope or anything to survive anyway! What do you think?

Actually may I PM you about this perhaps? My bus leaves this Sunday night though so I'm winding everything down slowly…

 

[hell toupee]

Thank you so much for your answer! I'm checking out the video. I really appreciate it.

I've never been religious either, but very open spiritually.
I'm so very sorry for the loss of your wife. I can't imagine how difficult it must be for you. I've lost my most important loved one a few months ago as well. The pain is agonizing.
I've asked the universe for several signs over the past months (also meditated, prayed while crying, broken down, etc etc), but nothing (that I could discern) has come through. Sometimes I wonder if — since I've already decided to ctb (and I had decided that even before my loved one had passed) — if the spirit world thinks not to "waste" signs on someone who doesn't need hope or anything to survive anyway! What do you think?

Actually may I PM you about this perhaps? My bus leaves this Sunday night though so I'm winding everything down slowly…

Absolutely - PM me. I'm here.

 

[Crescendo]

I think you have it pretty close to correct.

One thing that I keep coming across in my research, is this idea that a lot of people "leave their bodies" before anything terrible happens. You can assign that to a physiological response from the brain (ie releasing chemicals that shield us from trauma), or something more spiritual, that doesn't really matter.

For example, you would think that slipping and falling off of a cliff would be nightmarish as your body ragdolls off of rocks and tumbles to the ground. However, a study of mountain climbers who had done just that and lived, almost all reported it as a euphoric experience. They claimed they felt no pain, no panic, and indeed claim to be outside of their bodies, watching it tumble down the mountain without an emotional feelings of what was happening to their body.

Same with people who survived hangings - in that case, however, we know it's because the carotids are *usually* occluded right away causing rapid loss of consciousness. But even before the loss of consciousness, there are a lot of anecdotal reports of people not claiming to feel any pain whatsoever (this is full suspension, partial is different and I believe there are valid reasons for that).

The problem is that nothing is guaranteed, and even if the chances are low that you might suffer/panic, those chances still exist. And for someone like me who has a bad habit of overthinking everything, it causes me to be hesitant about kicking over the stool, so to speak.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I have some thoughts on it, as I think you may have (at least in part) misunderstood the purpose of my post.

It seems like you're describing the feelings and sensations of individuals during a CTB attempt. I understand that for select methods such as partial suspension, success requires continual effort to actively suppress SI so as not to back out. That is one category of SI, but it's not the category that I was discussing.

OP said, "I realize all methods include a certain amount of SI, and that some—like jumping—have a lot." The specific example they use is jumping. In the context of jumping to one's death, it can be distinctly inferred that mention of survival instinct refers to the time before making the jump, since in 99% of cases it's too late to change the result even if one decides mid-air that they want to live. What someone feels or thinks mid-air is not contextually relevant to the SI that we're talking about. Rather, it's the buildup to the jump that matters.

Jumping, gunshot, full suspension, inert gas, drowning (with proper constraints), fast-acting drugs, etc. simply don't allow one the opportunity to back out once crossing the threshold of the attempt - which is the perspective that my post was geared towards. My post was simply a theory on why I believe some methods may on average produce less SI prior to the physical attempt than others. What someone feels during the attempt if still conscious is a different story.

---

As for the alleged anecdotal reports describing cliff falls as a euphoric experience, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt that these are genuine accounts. But for the purpose of the discussion, I think it's missing relevant context. Keep in mind that these are accidental near death experiences.

The only testimonies of jumpers with the intent of suicide that I'm aware of are Kevin Hines and Ken Baldwin, who both survived jumping from the golden gate bridge.

These are direct quotes -

• Kevin Hines: "Instant regret, powerful, overwhelming. As I fell, all I wanted to do was reach back to the rail, but it was gone," said Kevin. "The thoughts in those four seconds, it was 'What have I just done? I don't want to die. God please save me.' Boom."
• Ken Baldwin: "I saw my hands leave the bridge," he recalled. "I knew at that moment, that I really, really messed up. Everything could have been better, I could change things. And I was falling. I couldn't change that."

Now obviously, there's the possibility of bias here: if anyone had described the fall as blissful or euphoric, it's unlikely those accounts would be highlighted in mainstream reporting, since they don't fit the conventional life-affirming narrative. But regardless, these are still real recorded testimonies, and I see no reason to doubt their sincerity.

So I remain unconvinced by the notion that suicide by jumping would mirror the allegedly euphoric experiences reported by some climbers — the opposite seems far more likely.

 

[hell toupee]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I have some thoughts on it, as I think you may have (at least in part) misunderstood the purpose of my post.

It seems like you're describing the feelings and sensations of individuals during a CTB attempt. I understand that for select methods such as partial suspension, success requires continual effort to actively suppress SI so as not to back out. That is one category of SI, but it's not the category that I was discussing.

OP said, "I realize all methods include a certain amount of SI, and that some—like jumping—have a lot." The specific example they use is jumping. In the context of jumping to one's death, it can be distinctly inferred that mention of survival instinct refers to the time before making the jump, since in 99% of cases it's too late to change the result even if one decides mid-air that they want to live. What someone feels or thinks mid-air is not contextually relevant to the SI that we're talking about. Rather, it's the buildup to the jump that matters.

Jumping, gunshot, full suspension, inert gas, drowning (with proper constraints), fast-acting drugs, etc. simply don't allow one the opportunity to back out once crossing the threshold of the attempt - which is the perspective that my post was geared towards. My post was simply a theory on why I believe some methods may on average produce less SI prior to the physical attempt than others. What someone feels during the attempt if still conscious is a different story.

---

As for the alleged anecdotal reports describing cliff falls as a euphoric experience, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt that these are genuine accounts. But for the purpose of the discussion, I think it's missing relevant context. Keep in mind that these are accidental near death experiences.

The only testimonies of jumpers with the intent of suicide that I'm aware of are Kevin Hines and Ken Baldwin, who both survived jumping from the golden gate bridge.

These are direct quotes -

• Kevin Hines: "Instant regret, powerful, overwhelming. As I fell, all I wanted to do was reach back to the rail, but it was gone," said Kevin. "The thoughts in those four seconds, it was 'What have I just done? I don't want to die. God please save me.' Boom."
• Ken Baldwin: "I saw my hands leave the bridge," he recalled. "I knew at that moment, that I really, really messed up. Everything could have been better, I could change things. And I was falling. I couldn't change that."

Now obviously, there's the possibility of bias here: if anyone had described the fall as blissful or euphoric, it's unlikely those accounts would be highlighted in mainstream reporting, since they don't fit the conventional life-affirming narrative. But regardless, these are still real recorded testimonies, and I see no reason to doubt their sincerity.

So I remain unconvinced by the notion that suicide by jumping would mirror the allegedly euphoric experiences reported by some climbers — the opposite seems far more likely.

Thanks for the correction, I did misunderstand the intent behind the OP.

As to the mountain climbers, I wasn't speaking of people who did it to commit suicide. The study I read was of accidental falls, I have read the same of drowning. This dichotomy of people who report it as the worst pain and panic imaginable, and yet others report it as blissful. I would be inclined to think that the former is more likely.

I believe my post did not accurately portray what I was trying to get across, and that's my bad. I was simply relaying some anecdotes that I found interesting (which I now know was not related to OP). I didn't mean to imply any absolutes like "jump off a cliff and experience euphoria" - my apologies if I was unclear.

Since I confused the actual topic, and we are weaving in to a completely different discussion, I'll bow out and simply hope that you find peace in whatever you do.

 

[NellyGoes]

Now obviously, there's the possibility of bias here: if anyone had described the fall as blissful or euphoric, it's unlikely those accounts would be highlighted in mainstream reporting, since they don't fit the conventional life-affirming narrative. But regardless, these are still real recorded testimonies, and I see no reason to doubt their sincerity.

If I may jump in here — I think this right there is exactly the point though — no mainstream media will EVER talk about a failed suicide where the person felt joyful and like they've made the right decision. There will only be cases of regret highlighted. None will say "I was so mad I was still alive after". You WILL find quite a few of those reports here though (where people say they felt fine during, and were horribly upset after that they "didn't make it"). I've read cases like this here from inert gas, jumping, hanging, SN, etc.
So I'd imagine any amount of fear or panic/regret that one may feel during/right before "impact/blackout" depends on 1) your certainty of wanting to die and 2) some inexplicable inner part of you and what your most inner self may want…

Also, these two cases you quoted. Like you said they're possibly the only real publicized cases we know of. And they're *two cases*!! Out of idk probably thousands who attempt and fail. Two cases!! That the pro-life community jumped on and "marketed" the crap out of. I don't think there's any way they reflect an accurate statistic or summary of this experience.