Discussion Is there value in suffering?

[Rust]

As the title says, do you see value in suffering? I know this is a vague question, but I'm mostly talking about those moments of deep introspection. When all the accumulated struggles of life sort of forces you to reassess everything, and it noticeably changes you. For example, maybe you had a turning point in life and discovered religion. Or maybe instead of religion you delved into philosophy. I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but I've seen it happen to a few people.

What's interesting to me is that it seems almost like a human instinct to find some meaning to past troubles. Like the time spent in misery couldn't have been for nothing and that there had to be some lesson learned that few would understand unless they traveled down the same path. And I guess I wanted to find out if this is true, or if maybe all the over-thinking is just a sunk cost and anything we learn down the path is pointless?

Personally I'm a bit pessimistic. I've gone through periods where I've built up a nice way of thinking about life, only to have it smashed to pieces shortly after, and then I have to rebuild. In that sense, it all seems pointless. But I do think it matures people quicker. I've seen people who looked down on others purely because they were born in a rich family turn humble really quickly in the face of adversity. In general though, everyone who I've seen go through this experience has landed up being a more decent human being.

If my ramblings made any sense, and if you still think I'm a sane person, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. Also apologies if I don't reply. Social anxiety cripples me, but I do appreciate every response!

 

[Forever Sleep]

I have benefitted long-term for certain very unpleasant events that happened in life. Being very harshly criticized at one point in my life made me lose all hope and purpose initially (in a creative career.) At the time, it felt like ruthless cruelty but, over time, I accepted that they were right. It made me pursue a different course, which ended up working out better.

Exercise is the classic one for me. I hate it and suffer throughout but, I know it benefits me to do it.

It really depends though. There are other shit things that happened don't feel as if they've benefitted me at all.

I suppose we do what we can to get over traumatic events. One way is to try and reframe it so that we can appreciate the good that came out of something bad. Or, to actively make that good happen. I think it's sometimes possible but, not always.

Take someone being murdered by their partner. Their families will sometimes set up charities to raise awareness of domestic violence and provide support for victims. Obviously, that's a good thing but, it will never replace that loss.

As for finding religion etc. I guess that's a personal journey. Some people may indeed end up feeling grateful for experiencing something bad if it lead to them discovering something profoundly good and life changing for them. Again, it won't be everyone's experience though.

 

[rainieday06]

Researching my soul contract told me that I signed up for my trauma to be able to gain empathy.


Outside of that knowledge I feel like suffering is just torture

 

[SchizoGymnast]

There is value in suffering if you seek it out. It has no value in and if itself. Also, what constitutes "value?" What if your suffering has led you to desire suicide? If that desire leads you to value your final moments and your loved ones and to empathize with the suffering of others, I would say that's valuable.

 

[Apathy79]

Yeah I think most suffering I've endured I end up contextualising in a way that feels valuable with hindsight. It's hard to see at the time though.

I was in a wheelchair for a long time after a car accident. That was terrible. Ever since I got out, I've understood the value of being able to walk. I don't think many people feel grateful for that, it's just sort of assumed. But it brings me great joy to go for a walk to this day because of that experience.

When I was in Uni, I took the $5K I'd saved to a casino to try to increase it. And lost it all. Everything I'd made and saved my whole life to that point. I couldn't even get the bus home - I had to walk. And I couldn't pay the rent when I got there. That led me to finding some cleaning stuff in the house and doorknocking offering to wash people's windows. There's an experience in rejection, hate, shame, but also sometimes warmness and generosity. It also landed me a tennis coaching job. That taught me a lot about what I can endure if I lose everything. How the fear is worse than the reality. Much later when my hermitage burned down in the bushfires, I could face living in the shelter without complaint, I think aided by that experience. And knew the key to getting out was helping people. It also forced me to re-integrate with society, which I think has been a good thing for my development, if embarrassing at times.

I mean I have a stack of these really. I'd say it's rarely obvious in the moment. It shows its value with hindsight. Often a long way down the road!

 

[bankai]

There is value in some suffering, but not all suffering. I fast and I lose weight. That suffering means something. I go to the gym and lift weights and put on muscle. There's value in that suffering.

I sit in the sauna 4 times a week. Apparently this is one of the most powerful things you can do for your health. There's value in that.


But if I'm suffering from some degenerative disease or some genetic condition or chronic fatigue.eff that shit.where is the value there?

 

[FuneralCry]

No, I see all suffering as so unnecessary and dreadful, it just tortures existing beings and I'll always see existing as only suffering, I see no benefit to existing rather existence is an abomination to me that just causes harm and suffering with no limit as to how much one can be tortured, I find it so dreadful how this existence was even imposed, it's all just so futile, it's all just waiting to die anyway.

 

[Rust]

I suppose we do what we can to get over traumatic events. One way is to try and reframe it so that we can appreciate the good that came out of something bad. Or, to actively make that good happen. I think it's sometimes possible but, not always.

As for finding religion etc. I guess that's a personal journey. Some people may indeed end up feeling grateful for experiencing something bad if it lead to them discovering something profoundly good and life changing for them. Again, it won't be everyone's experience though.

It does sometimes feel like we're just in denial and actively searching for an escape. And maybe sometimes, you'll find something that justifies it all, but sometimes you won't. Maybe a part of that is also realising that you're in denial? Since if you realise that, you'll probably stop searching for for an escape. But I think I'm being a bit too pessimistic there.

Researching my soul contract told me that I signed up for my trauma to be able to gain empathy.

I like this, because you've discovered something interesting. I've never heard of the concept of a "soul contract" before. I'll need to read up on it, but this is something that people might disregard if you tell them about it in a normal setting, but if you've gone through some hardship, you're more likely to understand it. I won't try to pretend like I fully understand it, but I hope there are more positives to your soul contract. Like what happens when you've achieved full empathy. Is that the end goal or the start of something else?

There is value in suffering if you seek it out. It has no value in and if itself. Also, what constitutes "value?"

I can agree with this, but I do also think most people try to seek out value instinctively. My definition of "value" is definitely vague, but I think it's something akin to a lesson learnt. Some sort of insight that can't be taught in a school for instance. But I'd also say it's very subjective. If it's something that brings you inner peace, then I'd argue there's value there, just like with your example.

I was in a wheelchair for a long time after a car accident. That was terrible. Ever since I got out, I've understood the value of being able to walk. I don't think many people feel grateful for that, it's just sort of assumed. But it brings me great joy to go for a walk to this day because of that experience.

When I was in Uni, I took the $5K I'd saved to a casino to try to increase it. And lost it all. Everything I'd made and saved my whole life to that point. I couldn't even get the bus home - I had to walk. And I couldn't pay the rent when I got there. That led me to finding some cleaning stuff in the house and doorknocking offering to wash people's windows. There's an experience in rejection, hate, shame, but also sometimes warmness and generosity. It also landed me a tennis coaching job. That taught me a lot about what I can endure if I lose everything. How the fear is worse than the reality. Much later when my hermitage burned down in the bushfires, I could face living in the shelter without complaint, I think aided by that experience. And knew the key to getting out was helping people. It also forced me to re-integrate with society, which I think has been a good thing for my development, if embarrassing at times.

I won't lie, your post has made me a lot less pessimistic. I've also made some poor financial decisions, but that led me to be much more responsible in the future. I think my current issue is that I've been treading water for a long time now. I'm always on the verge of collapse, but I never quite reach it. And because I haven't faced that collapse, I haven't been forced to appreciate all the things I take for granted. I guess I've also stopped learning, which is part of the problem. You've given me a lot to think about, I appreciate it!

But if I'm suffering from some degenerative disease or some genetic condition or chronic fatigue.eff that shit.where is the value there?

You're right. I think it comes down to a difference between intentional and unintentional suffering. You can easily find meaning or value in the former, but not in the latter. But the post that @Apathy79 made does give me hope for the latter case.

No, I see all suffering as so unnecessary and dreadful, it just tortures existing beings and I'll always see existing as only suffering, I see no benefit to existing rather existence is an abomination to me that just causes harm and suffering with no limit as to how much one can be tortured

There really is no limit to how one can be tortured, that I fully agree with. But I also find that I am my own worst enemy. I guess the reason for my question was to find the silver lining to all that suffering. But I fully understand if you feel that there is none. I myself don't know what to think right now.

 

[spirol]

There is value in deep thought and perspective, not suffering.

 

[Tumblewillow]

I think if you suffer you have true empathy. Past the point of "feeling sorry" for someone and into actually being able to understand. Its a powerful ability to put yourself in other people's shoes.

But there's inherent damage that comes with suffering, so you can gain things from it e.g resilience, empathy, introspection, appreciation but it comes at a cost. Some people can handle the cost, others can't.

For some people the gains are not worth the cost or the suffering, so there is no value for them -- but there can be value for others.