Discussion I hate how misunderstood we are

[sohopelessandempty]

Long post but I hope somebody reads the whole thing and understands:
I feel like no "normal" people can truly understand suicidal people which makes sense however some of the things I've seen and heard piss me off so much. I know this video was years ago but do you guys remember the one YouTube video about this site that blew up? Some of the comments make me so mad and remind me that most people don't understand. I could go on and on about why this place is misunderstood and why it gets a bad reputation and I also understand why but pushing all of that aside, people don't get how hard it really is to kill yourself. I saw them talking about one of the members here who is always posting about wanting death(that is what this place is for after all) and claiming they weren't truly suicidal if they haven't done it yet. I just got here so not sure if this person actually encouraged anyone, we all have free will and nobody should force anyone to do anything but what I meant is that people claimed because that person kept talking about suicide instead of actually doing it, they must not really want to die and are just trying to convince others to do it. I saw a comment that even said if that person has so many posts, not only are they not actually suicidal but they just want others to be. If anyone actually encouraged others to ctb obviously that's bad but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how even in a place meant to talk about these things, non-suicidal people still judge us and claim if we really want to die we'd have done it already. But it's not as easy as it sounds and nobody seems to get that except the people here. For example, most people want to be rich but most of them aren't. Does this mean they don't truly want it? No. And people don't go accusing them of not truly wanting to or else they'd just become rich because the world is unfair and doesn't work like that. People can understand that, but apparently the idea that just because someone wants to die doesn't mean they can is something so hard to grasp for others. And then I get paranoid, what if just like those comments treated that one member, if I stay on this site for a while and have a lot of posts people will think the same about me. They don't understand. Anyways sorry for long rant I'm just a paranoid person.

 

[WhiteRabbit]

It shouldn't be hard for people to understand that there are levels to suicidality and that those levels can fluctuate. Still, it's easy to be judgmental about something you haven't experienced. And yeah, working up the courage to die is pretty fucking hard. I've been here a long time. Some days I feel like I can make it for another couple of years, other days I feel like I'm right on the edge of a cliff, and any little thing is going to push me over. It's ok to be here, stuck in limbo. I don't really give a fuck what anyone thinks about my post count.

 

[sohopelessandempty]

It shouldn't be hard for people to understand that there are levels to suicidality and that those levels can fluctuate. Still, it's easy to be judgmental about something you haven't experienced. And yeah, working up the courage to die is pretty fucking hard. I've been here a long time. Some days I feel like I can make it for another couple of years, other days I feel like I'm right on the edge of a cliff, and any little thing is going to push me over. It's ok to be here, stuck in limbo. I don't really give a fuck what anyone thinks about my post count.

YES THE LIMBO THING TOO!!! People can't seem to grasp that either. I think for many people it fluctuates, and that's one of the most "normal" parts of being suicidal. Normal in quotes since wanting to die isn't considered a normal thing in general.

 

[just_a_guy]

We're the ones cast aside, we're Christo in the movie "The Beach". We spoil their fun and perception, we don't fit their mold for the happy consumer oblivious of the dark realities we carry.

 

[sohopelessandempty]

We're the ones cast aside, we're Christo in the movie "The Beach". We spoil their fun and perception, we don't fit their mold for the happy consumer oblivious of the dark realities we carry.

Ignorance really is bliss, but I can't force myself to ignore how terrible the world truly is. It seems to seep out everywhere.

 

[just_a_guy]

Ignorance really is bliss, but I can't force myself to ignore how terrible the world truly is. It seems to seep out everywhere.

Exactly, once you see, you can't stop seeing.

 

[Arvayn]

Most people are taught very strong and dogmatic morals about the value of life and the moral wrongness of suicide.

Truthfully, I think there are very few people who truly want to die and to completely annihilate themselves regardless of what staying alive would entail, as opposed to people who just want their suffering to end and see suicide as the only remaining means to achieve that. The former people do exist, though.

Either way, nobody wants to accept suicide as a permissible act or desire because they're too deterred by their own fear and they don't know how to truly put themselves in the suicidal person's shoes. You'd need to have experienced it yourself at some point to be capable of that.

 

[sohopelessandempty]

Most people are taught very strong and dogmatic morals about the value of life and the moral wrongness of suicide.

Truthfully, I think there are very few people who truly want to die and to completely annihilate themselves regardless of what staying alive would entail, as opposed to people who just want their suffering to end and see suicide as the only remaining means to achieve that. The former people do exist, though.

Either way, nobody wants to accept suicide as a permissible act or desire because they're too deterred by their own fear and they don't know how to truly put themselves in the suicidal person's shoes. You'd need to have experienced it yourself at some point to be capable of that.

But what is the difference between truly not wanting to die or just survival instinct kicking in???

 

[Sadocan]

Empathy has been dead and buried for years now. It's going to get worse.

 

[Arvayn]

But what is the difference between truly not wanting to die or just survival instinct kicking in???

I wrote that statement in passing, so I phrased myself rather poorly. I apologize; I'll try to be clearer about my stance now, though it might come off a bit preachy. All of this is my opinion.

TL;DR: If someone wants to die because life feels painful or overwhelming, it's a reaction to suffering. If someone wants to die no matter what regardless of their circumstance, then that's a completely honest suicidal desire, and people in this camp DO exist and are valid.

It's not accurate for me to say that people don't "truly" want to die. Many-- most of the people here-- do. What's important is the reason behind that desire.
There are relatively few individuals who seek out death for its own sake, meaning, being drawn to the idea of death itself as an isolated outcome or state, without necessarily looking to get anything else out of it. Death is paradoxical in that sense; it is a neutral act. It is the cessation of all change. Dying won't make you feel happier, and it won't make you feel sadder either. From the dead person's perspective, they don't exist anymore, so it is neither advantageous nor disadvantageous. It is the living person that wants to stop their experience.
The majority of people want to die because they think it is the only available solution that's left to stop their unbearable suffering. In other words, that wish isn't rooted in a fascination with death, it's in the desperation to escape pain.

For most people, the suicidal desire is secondary. The primary desire is relief, change or release. You can see this in how most people go about their depression. They don't express their longing for death as an experience. They talk about what hurts them: loneliness, trauma, fear, insecurity, failure, misery. They're emotionally focused on suffering, not on death.

Thusly, I think the vast majority of suicidal folks don't inherently want the annihilative state of nonexistence. They want a life that doesn't feel unbearable. All of the complaints, struggles and grief are not signs of weakness or signs of delusion.
A hypothetical yes/no question that I asked myself when I was suicidal was: "If all of my pain disappeared, and I had meaningful relationships, safety and comfort, would I still want to die?". There is no wrong answer here, but it does give a pretty good indicator of what's underneath.

Survival instinct is automatic, and happens regardless of what you want or believe. But, when you're in a rational and calm state of mind, and you still feel things like hesitation, doubt, fear or conflict about death... that's not survival instinct, that's some part of you that still cares to stay alive.

 

[sohopelessandempty]

Empathy has been dead and buried for years now. It's going to get worse.

Yeah, I wonder why though. Could be so many things but I feel like people are too cruel sometimes.

I wrote that statement in passing, so I phrased myself rather poorly. I apologize; I'll try to be clearer about my stance now, though it might come off a bit preachy. All of this is my opinion.

TL;DR: If someone wants to die because life feels painful or overwhelming, it's a reaction to suffering. If someone wants to die no matter what regardless of their circumstance, then that's a completely honest suicidal desire, and people in this camp DO exist and are valid.

It's not accurate for me to say that people don't "truly" want to die. Many-- most of the people here-- do. What's important is the reason behind that desire.
There are relatively few individuals who seek out death for its own sake, meaning, being drawn to the idea of death itself as an isolated outcome or state, without necessarily looking to get anything else out of it. Death is paradoxical in that sense; it is a neutral act. It is the cessation of all change. Dying won't make you feel happier, and it won't make you feel sadder either. From the dead person's perspective, they don't exist anymore, so it is neither advantageous nor disadvantageous. It is the living person that wants to stop their experience.
The majority of people want to die because they think it is the only available solution that's left to stop their unbearable suffering. In other words, that wish isn't rooted in a fascination with death, it's in the desperation to escape pain.

For most people, the suicidal desire is secondary. The primary desire is relief, change or release. You can see this in how most people go about their depression. They don't express their longing for death as an experience. They talk about what hurts them: loneliness, trauma, fear, insecurity, failure, misery. They're emotionally focused on suffering, not on death.

Thusly, I think the vast majority of suicidal folks don't inherently want the annihilative state of nonexistence. They want a life that doesn't feel unbearable. All of the complaints, struggles and grief are not signs of weakness or signs of delusion.
A hypothetical yes/no question that I asked myself when I was suicidal was: "If all of my pain disappeared, and I had meaningful relationships, safety and comfort, would I still want to die?". There is no wrong answer here, but it does give a pretty good indicator of what's underneath.

Survival instinct is automatic, and happens regardless of what you want or believe. But, when you're in a rational and calm state of mind, and you still feel things like hesitation, doubt, fear or conflict about death... that's not survival instinct, that's some part of you that still cares to stay alive.

You worded this very well. Personally I'm not sure what I want, sometimes when I imagine getting the "perfect" life and everything I ever wanted and money and all that, it wouldn't change anything. I'd still want to die. But I think if I had that since birth, I probably wouldn't want to. It just feels too late now, like no matter how good my life could become or even imagining the life I desire, I'm too sick now to ever feel "normal" again. But it depends on my mood.

 

[Arvayn]

You worded this very well. Personally I'm not sure what I want, sometimes when I imagine getting the "perfect" life and everything I ever wanted and money and all that, it wouldn't change anything. I'd still want to die. But I think if I had that since birth, I probably wouldn't want to. It just feels too late now, like no matter how good my life could become or even imagining the life I desire, I'm too sick now to ever feel "normal" again. But it depends on my mood.

Trauma is a poison that is worse than most. It never quite leaves you, and it's not something you can just "get over"; it becomes part of you. What matters is finding a way to adapt to it and become as best equipped to deal with it as you can be, and then maybe one day, it won't hurt as bad. It might also not get better, though. Do you think it's worth it to you to take that risk?

You are very perceptive and self-aware, that's made evident by your ability to honestly consider things and think outside the confines of your own mind.
I don't believe it's too late for you. It's only over when you decide it is. Take as much time as you need to thoroughly consider your relationship with your feelings; I know that I tried to rush it, and I did a lot of things that I ended up regretting.

Also, depression is a bitch. It's not your fault that you struggle to do things. Your brain's reward and decision-making circuitry literally are not working properly. I think you are strong for somehow pushing through all of that, because it destroyed me physically. I'd be careful not to fall into the loop of constantly making defeated or self-critical statements, though.

 

[sohopelessandempty]

Trauma is a poison that is worse than most. It never quite leaves you, and it's not something you can just "get over"; it becomes part of you. What matters is finding a way to adapt to it and become as best equipped to deal with it as you can be, and then maybe one day, it won't hurt as bad. It might also not get better, though. Do you think it's worth it to you to take that risk?

You are very perceptive and self-aware, that's made evident by your ability to honestly consider things and think outside the confines of your own mind.
I don't believe it's too late for you. It's only over when you decide it is. Take as much time as you need to thoroughly consider your relationship with your feelings; I know that I tried to rush it, and I did a lot of things that I ended up regretting.

Also, depression is a bitch. It's not your fault that you struggle to do things. Your brain's reward and decision-making circuitry literally are not working properly. I think you are strong for somehow pushing through all of that, because it destroyed me physically. I'd be careful not to fall into the loop of constantly making defeated or self-critical statements, though.

Thank you so much for your kind words. They make me feel seen. Right now I don't plan on CTBing, after all like you said it shouldn't be rushed. I need to figure out what I really want, and my true feelings.