Grief after suicide

[SchizoGymnast]

If you're here on SaSu, you signed up knowing that people would die here. You signed up for this forum *because* people *could* die here. The assumption is that, if you are here, you are pro choice. What does it mean to be pro choice? I'm sure everyone has their own answer to this question, but I think most people would agree that it consists, in some form, of the following:

-Competent adults can make their own informed choices.
-Suicide shouldn't be stigmatized.
-It is unethical to employ force to prevent suicide.

Notice what's absent? That you have to like or celebrate or agree with someone's decision to pursue suicide.

There have been a lot of deaths here on SaSu and as always, you have all risen to the occasion to embrace not just the person ending their life, but those in their immediate circle struggling with the aftermath. And I'm here to say that it's okay to struggle with it. It doesn't mean that you don't still respect their autonomy or that you don't still wish them peace. It means that you loved them and that you see how the world failed them.

I like to compare this situation to abortion in the cases of fetal abnormality. Babies born with fetal abnormalities can and do often live fulfilling lives and their families and loved ones enjoy caring for them. It's also true that fetal abnormalities are painful, disfiguring, expensive, and life-limiting in a society that doesn't give two shits about caring for even healthy children. Termination for medical reasons is thus a highly individual, highly complex decision unique to each family and you don't have to agree with it. You can say, "I wouldn't have done that. I would like to have changed this outcome." And still allow other people to make those hard decisions without making their lives harder.

I spent some time working in a hospice setting, and I got to work with people with terminal illnesses who got to live full lives. Their deaths were natural and expected and as comfortable as could be. Yet the grief remained. The shock remained. And when I read ctb threads and I see the comments saying, "I hope you found peace," I struggle with that. Of course, there's absolutely nothing wrong with wishing someone peace. Any humane person would wish for that. My problem is that it echoes what I often heard when working in hospice. The overarching theme is that now that they're dead, they're not suffering anymore. We're not allowed to be sad or angry about this person's passing because to do so would be to oppose that person's peace. It's toxic positivity repackaged. Plus, I feel that overemphasizing peace in death takes us away from pursuing peace in life. People pursue peace in death because they've exhausted their options in life and we shouldn't accept that as normal. It may be current reality, but it shouldn't be, and doesn't have to be, normal. It is my personal mission that when someone dies by suicide, I try to honor their memory by doing one small thing that would restore peace in this life. Did someone die by suicide because of a serious illness? I will work overtime and the money I earn will be donated to treating that illness. And so on.

Maybe what I'm saying is offensive or controversial. Maybe it's coming out sideways. But the takeaway is: if you are feeling fatigued and traumatized by recent deaths here on SaSu, it is totally normal and expected. It doesn't mean you are not pro choice. It doesn't mean you didn't care about them or want them to find peace. It means you're human and deep down, you yearn for a better world. Never forget that.

This is the last thing I promise...my inbox is always open and I'm pretty much always awake. It is my joy to serve people. Please reach out anytime.

 

[avalokitesvara]

I agree with most of what you have written. But for me to ask that people who are themselves at the end of their rope take on the burden of bettering the world through things like charity, is too much. What we can do to make the world more peaceful is to cultivate our own inner peace and acceptance of ourselves and others, and do our best to be benevolent towards the beings we encounter. I don't take it as my task to help end cancer because someone died of cancer or end teen suicide because a teen killed herself. It's too much, the scale is too big. Be kind to yourself and those around you. That is manageable.

 

[SchizoGymnast]

I agree with most of what you have written. But for me to ask that people who are themselves at the end of their rope take on the burden of bettering the world through things like charity, is too much. What we can do to make the world more peaceful is to cultivate our own inner peace and acceptance of ourselves and others, and do our best to be benevolent towards the beings we encounter. I don't take it as my task to help end cancer because someone died of cancer or end teen suicide because a teen killed herself. It's too much, the scale is too big. Be kind to yourself and those around you. That is manageable.

It definitely looks different for everyone. Charity is a love language for me, so I immediately gravitated towards that example

I also think it depends on what stage of healing you are in. Did it just happen, or are you years down the line? Etc

 

[Forveleth]

I have seen people mourn just not on goodbye threads. Goodbye threads are for the person dying so they should be full of well wishes. I have seen people say they are sad and miss the person but never anger, because that space is not the place for that. I have seen more emotions expressed on the person's journal/venting thread or on their profile if it is open. I have seen people here express sadness and even a little anger that one of their friends here has left. So it does happen.

As for the charity in memory of, it is a good thought. I had done the same for people I am close to IRL. I might if I got close to someone here. However, I also agree with what has been said above. Morning looks different for everyone and people in our situation are going through a tough time. It is very difficult for some of us to do even the most basic things, let alone go the extra mile for a charity or cause.

 

[SchizoGymnast]

I have seen people mourn just not on goodbye threads. Goodbye threads are for the person dying so they should be full of well wishes. I have seen people say they are sad and miss the person but never anger, because that space is not the place for that. I have seen more emotions expressed on the person's journal/venting thread or on their profile if it is open. I have seen people here express sadness and even a little anger that one of their friends here has left. So it does happen.

As for the charity in memory of, it is a good thought. I had done the same for people I am close to IRL. I might if I got close to someone here. However, I also agree with what has been said above. Morning looks different for everyone and people in our situation are going through a tough time. It is very difficult for some of us to do even the most basic things, let alone go the extra mile for a charity or cause.

Hey thanks for replying! Those are all valid points. I just noticed that in Life In General, people often don't feel like they can express more unsavory emotions in the aftermath of someone's death. It's not necessarily specific to SaSu. And I have seen people on SaSu straight up make statements along the lines of, "Why is suicide a tragedy?" So I felt the need to remind the world that messy feelings post suicide are okay to have and to express.

And yes, we all grieve differently, in our own time and in our own way. Especially after a loss has just happened. I don't want anyone to take my post too literally.

 

[skeptikus]

Being pro-choice means believing that adults have the right to make informed decisions about their own lives, including ending it, without shame or forced intervention. But it doesn't mean you have to agree with or celebrate suicide. It's okay to feel sad, angry, or tired when people die—those feelings show you care and want a better world. Wishing peace to the dead is kind, but we should also work to bring peace to the living. Grief and hope can exist together. Helping others, even in small ways, can be a way to honor those we've lost. You're not alone in this.

Is this summary of your point by chatgpt accurate?

 

[Forever Sleep]

I do agree with some of your points. However, I would argue that being 'happy' for someone or, hopeful even that they will find peace is largey altruistic. Most people here I imagine have tried (likely multiple) things to turn their lives around. Seeing as the act of suicide is frightening for most, it is it's own barrier in a way. I imagine the reality for some people here is that they are struggling immensely with next to no hope of turning things around. Who are we to question them if they insist they've had enough? It's surely kinder to want them to be free of suffering. If they can't achieve that in life, then death can start to make more sense.

That's not to say we can't be sad if they do go but truly- are we being altruistically sad or, selfishly sad? I'd say, it's mostly through selfishness. We will miss the positive impact they had on our lives- even in a small way. Sure, we can feel sad life got to such a bad point, it pushed them to do it but, could we have 'saved' them? Could anyone? Did we/ they try? Did they want us to 'save' them or, was their mind set? Why was that? Maybe because other people had tried to help but failed.

It's human to need people though. It's human to grieve, feel guilt, even feel anger. Still- I think it's important to try to see it from the other person's point of view. I do believe that: If you truly love someone (care about them even,) you let them go if they are suffering.

Not to knock what you do. Giving to charity is great- of course. If I give all of my (meagre) savings to cancer research, will it take away all the pain that cancer sufferers are in now? No. I think it's important to try to reduce suffering if and when we can. I think it's important to recognise that suicides don't happen in isolation. They do indeed deeply affect other people. Those people deserve sympathy and support.

However, I think it's also important to recogise the plight of those who are suffering. If they can't be helped, it's horribly cruel to trap them here with emotional blackmail. It's a double standard too. We are insisting that they can cope with any amount of pain but, we can't cope with their loss. Wishing them peace I think is a beautiful letting go- even if it hurts us. That's the most beautiful, altruistic form of love there is- to my mind. It's the purest form of love because it expects nothing back. We are wanting the best for them. Even if that means losing them.

Of course, that's not to say we might not feel nervous that it is in fact the best or only decision for them. That's always a tricky issue. But then, I tend to remind myself- Would I want someone questioning my decision? Even with the best of intentions? No. My life is my own. I've had to live the shitty thing! Only I really know what I've gone through and how much more I want/ can take. I don't want someone imposing their beliefs or perspectives on me anymore. If I wanted their advice, help or support, I would be asking for it.

It's fine to say we will miss people. That's a form of appreciation but, it can be used as maipulation- PLEASE don't go- I NEED you! That's not fair to dump on someone who's struggling immensely themselves. It's just a ploy to trap them here. That isn't love. It's selfish need.

 

[SchizoGymnast]

I do agree with some of your points. However, I would argue that being 'happy' for someone or, hopeful even that they will find peace is largey altruistic. Most people here I imagine have tried (likely multiple) things to turn their lives around. Seeing as the act of suicide is frightening for most, it is it's own barrier in a way. I imagine the reality for some people here is that they are struggling immensely with next to no hope of turning things around. Who are we to question them if they insist they've had enough? It's surely kinder to want them to be free of suffering. If they can't achieve that in life, then death can start to make more sense.

That's not to say we can't be sad if they do go but truly- are we being altruistically sad or, selfishly sad? I'd say, it's mostly through selfishness. We will miss the positive impact they had on our lives- even in a small way. Sure, we can feel sad life got to such a bad point, it pushed them to do it but, could we have 'saved' them? Could anyone? Did we/ they try? Did they want us to 'save' them or, was their mind set? Why was that? Maybe because other people had tried to help but failed.

It's human to need people though. It's human to grieve, feel guilt, even feel anger. Still- I think it's important to try to see it from the other person's point of view. I do believe that: If you truly love someone (care about them even,) you let them go if they are suffering.

Not to knock what you do. Giving to charity is great- of course. If I give all of my (meagre) savings to cancer research, will it take away all the pain that cancer sufferers are in now? No. I think it's important to try to reduce suffering if and when we can. I think it's important to recognise that suicides don't happen in isolation. They do indeed deeply affect other people. Those people deserve sympathy and support.

However, I think it's also important to recogise the plight of those who are suffering. If they can't be helped, it's horribly cruel to trap them here with emotional blackmail. It's a double standard too. We are insisting that they can cope with any amount of pain but, we can't cope with their loss. Wishing them peace I think is a beautiful letting go- even if it hurts us. That's the most beautiful, altruistic form of love there is- to my mind. It's the purest form of love because it expects nothing back. We are wanting the best for them. Even if that means losing them.

Of course, that's not to say we might not feel nervous that it is in fact the best or only decision for them. That's always a tricky issue. But then, I tend to remind myself- Would I want someone questioning my decision? Even with the best of intentions? No. My life is my own. I've had to live the shitty thing! Only I really know what I've gone through and how much more I want/ can take. I don't want someone imposing their beliefs or perspectives on me anymore. If I wanted their advice, help or support, I would be asking for it.

It's fine to say we will miss people. That's a form of appreciation but, it can be used as maipulation- PLEASE don't go- I NEED you! That's not fair to dump on someone who's struggling immensely themselves. It's just a ploy to trap them here. That isn't love. It's selfish need.

I'm so grateful you came to visit and I felt your comment was respectful and thoughtful. I want to give it the attention it deserves, but I worked the overnight and I need some sleep first. I just don't want you to think I am ignoring you.

 

[SchizoGymnast]

I do agree with some of your points. However, I would argue that being 'happy' for someone or, hopeful even that they will find peace is largey altruistic. Most people here I imagine have tried (likely multiple) things to turn their lives around. Seeing as the act of suicide is frightening for most, it is it's own barrier in a way. I imagine the reality for some people here is that they are struggling immensely with next to no hope of turning things around. Who are we to question them if they insist they've had enough? It's surely kinder to want them to be free of suffering. If they can't achieve that in life, then death can start to make more sense.

Alrighty, I'm ready!

First of all, I apologize. I made my original post at 3am with low blood sugar. My EEG was probably flat lines. I'll try this again.

I also want to add some context. I spent the past 12 years working in medical settings and human services. My purpose in life was informed consent, harm reduction, non-discrimination, meeting people where they were and not where I wanted them to be. I had to watch many people die and I had to help grieving family members and friends process deep, dark emotions and navigate many different religious and cultural settings. None of this is to say my views are correct. They can be just as wrong as anyone else's. I'm just saying my views came from somewhere and they've worked for me.

Anyway, I guess I'll do this point by point.

So far I agree with all of this. What kind of ghoul wishes suffering on someone that already suffered enough? That harkens back to the days when we assumed all suicides were in hell, we denied them funerals and surviving loved ones weren't even allowed to mourn. I reject that completely. I think the misstep on my part was when I mentioned toxic positivity. It's not toxic positivity to wish someone well, especially at their memorial. That's what the memorial is for. However, I have noticed that in some settings, particularly Protestant Christian and some New Age spiritual settings...expressing negative feelings isn't allowed ever. This is a more extreme example, but it illustrates my point. In some conservative Christian circles, expressing too much grief is frowned upon because it means you are doubting salvation and the resurrection. That's the toxic positivity that I don't like and I would hate to see it replicated in other settings.

That's not to say we can't be sad if they do go but truly- are we being altruistically sad or, selfishly sad? I'd say, it's mostly through selfishness. We will miss the positive impact they had on our lives- even in a small way. Sure, we can feel sad life got to such a bad point, it pushed them to do it but, could we have 'saved' them? Could anyone? Did we/ they try? Did they want us to 'save' them or, was their mind set? Why was that? Maybe because other people had tried to help but failed.

If I have knowledge of a person and their situation, and I know for a fact that something might help them that they have not tried before, I will offer it. Not push it on them, not beg them not to ctb. Just offer it as a resource and invite them to PM if they feel like it. Everything else is up to them. To me, that's just plain ol informed consent. I recently recommended propranolol to minimize the side effects of certain ctb drugs. Same thing. Otherwise, I think we're on the same page.

It's human to need people though. It's human to grieve, feel guilt, even feel anger. Still- I think it's important to try to see it from the other person's point of view. I do believe that: If you truly love someone (care about them even,) you let them go if they are suffering.

100% agree

Not to knock what you do. Giving to charity is great- of course. If I give all of my (meagre) savings to cancer research, will it take away all the pain that cancer sufferers are in now? No. I think it's important to try to reduce suffering if and when we can. I think it's important to recognise that suicides don't happen in isolation. They do indeed deeply affect other people. Those people deserve sympathy and support.

Again, no argument here. I support hospice and, potentially, MAID for people struggling with life limiting illnesses. It's not either/or. It's both/and. And it doesn't have to be huge. It can be as simple as planting a tree, or an extra seat at the table at an event. I just chose the charity example because it's an obvious, obnoxious Karen example of something someone might do as legacy.

However, I think it's also important to recogise the plight of those who are suffering. If they can't be helped, it's horribly cruel to trap them here with emotional blackmail. It's a double standard too. We are insisting that they can cope with any amount of pain but, we can't cope with their loss. Wishing them peace I think is a beautiful letting go- even if it hurts us. That's the most beautiful, altruistic form of love there is- to my mind. It's the purest form of love because it expects nothing back. We are wanting the best for them. Even if that means losing them.

What I'm arguing for has nothing to do with blackmailing people who are facing this decision. There is no informed decision making when manipulation or coercion is present in my opinion. Telling someone preparing for suicide how they're going to hurt others is actually contraindicated even in pro-life prevention efforts and can actually increase suicidal ideation. My advice about expression of negative sentiments is strictly for survivors after the fact, with the appropriate time/place/audience. Basically, after the memorial is over, reach out to someone you trust and say whatever you're feeling and don't think it makes you a bad person or that you didn't really love them. People and relationships are complicated and all feelings are okay. It's how you act on them that matters.

Of course, that's not to say we might not feel nervous that it is in fact the best or only decision for them. That's always a tricky issue. But then, I tend to remind myself- Would I want someone questioning my decision? Even with the best of intentions? No. My life is my own. I've had to live the shitty thing! Only I really know what I've gone through and how much more I want/ can take. I don't want someone imposing their beliefs or perspectives on me anymore. If I wanted their advice, help or support, I would be asking for it.

It would be ideal in these situations if everyone were of one mind as to what was about to happen. That's not real life most of the time, unfortunately. People who care the most about you will challenge you. Sometimes it's in spite of their love for you. Sometimes it's *because* of their love for you. That's why I think we need to move away from people having the *correct* thoughts and feelings and focus on right *behavior.* In the end, what matters more? That people think in lockstep with you the whole time? Or that they put aside their feelings, prejudices, etc to show up for you? That's my take on it. And if you don't wish to challenge your loved one? You totally understand, and are in agreement, and you're showing up and your feelings are all positive? That's okay too! There are no wrong feelings.

This is obviously very, very dependent on the relationship you have with this person, and there would be a right time and place and manner of going about it. Showing up on a 'Goodbye' thread of someone I had never talked to ain't it. When I'm in the situation, I do three things: I invite them to PM me, I invite them to my table (Lithuanian tradition), and I tell them I'll see them on the other side.

It's fine to say we will miss people. That's a form of appreciation but, it can be used as maipulation- PLEASE don't go- I NEED you! That's not fair to dump on someone who's struggling immensely themselves. It's just a ploy to trap them here. That isn't love. It's selfish need.

Agree totally!

Real life example from my job: I work in a homeless shelter that operates on a housing first, harm reduction model. People use drugs and engage in sex work here. Sometimes they get sick or injured. Sometimes they die. Our job is to provide them a safe place where all their basic needs are met, access to information, the tools needed to make their "extracurricular" activities safer, and the sense that we value them no matter what. Sometimes, in the interest of informed consent, we have to tell them things they don't want to hear, but it's up to them what they do with it. We get criticized by family, friends, and the community all the time for enabling bad behavior or even killing our clients. When guests get sick or die, family and friends will come and demand to know why we didn't stop it. That's where I come in. Recently we had a gentleman pass away from complications of Hep C and we ended up meeting his family. They hadn't seen him for ten years and was under the impression that he was alone, ravaged, on the street. After talking to us, they saw he was surrounded by a bustling, vibrant community where he had everything he needed to make choices and live a happy life in a safe way. And he was loved for who he was, not the perfect polished version the world wanted him to be. Basically his family saw him as having destroyed his life, in need of saving, and left only with memories of his worst moments. And none of that is easy to hear. But if the family hasn't felt safe coming to us with those feelings, they never would have had the opportunity to learn about the other side of the story and receive support and care for us. That family came in sad and angry and they left laughing, relieved and galvanized.

My message is: be kind to others, but he kind to yourself as well.

Sorry this was so long. I hope this clears things up. If you have anything to add, please do. I will always make time for you.

Is this summary of your point by chatgpt accurate?

Yes it is