Basic suitability of (stair) railings as anchor points for full suspension hangs

[Suizident]

Hello,

the topic of this thread is the basic suitability of (stair) railings as anchor points for full suspension hanging, perhaps also discussed using specific examples/setups.

(Stair) railings can be made of wood or metal. I suspect that metal (stair) railings are more resilient than wooden (stair) railings. There are probably also wooden railings that are very resilient (a wooden ladder isalso very resilient). However, I would imagine that if you are not a carpenter or similar, it is notalways easy to assess how resilient a wooden railing is. For the sake of simplicity, I would therefore say that wooden (stair) railings are out of the question, and only metal railings are of interest.


Special features of a metal railing:

- It is usually made from a single piece. Unlike a wooden railing, this means that it is not possible, for example,for a single railing bar to be pulled out when used as an anchor point.

- Theoretically, the entire railing could be torn out, but I assume that the probabilityis low, as the load should be distributed over several attachment points if the railing is cast in one piece

- I consider it unlikely that any weld seams will break

- A metal railing, possibly painted, is smooth, which means that the rope/knot may slip.



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Let's take a person of normal weight as an example. I suggest a double constrictor knote as the knot, possibly also an round turn with two half hitches. However, the double constrictor knote may tighten better on the smooth metal railing and therefore slip less. As a safety knot, I suggest a double overhand knot for the loose end.




Below are two pictures (picture 1 = setup 1 and picture 2 = setup2)

PICTURE 1 / SETUP 1



The idea in this fictional example is to attach the rope at the point marked with a green X either with a double constrictor knote (first choice) or with a round turn with two half hitches (second choice). Use a double overhand knot on the loose end as a safety measure.

Evaluation of this setup 1:

- I consider it impossible for the railing to tear apart. I consider it unlikely that a (correct) weld seam will tear.

- The attachment of the railing to the floor should hold. Even if one attachment point should loosen or even tear out, other attachment points should still hold the railing and load (the duration is only a few minutes).

- Theoretically, the knot could slip to the left. But that shouldn't matter. Perhaps it won't slip, as the constrictor knote is very tight. The rope runs past sharp edges: (1) edge of the railing, (2) lower edge of the "railing tube/vertical strut," (3) lower edges of the beam. The edge of the beam is probably (hypothetically) the most dangerous for the rope because the beam is made of wood and is therefore rough, meaning that the edge of the beam can cut the rope most easily. D

- The three "sharp-edged" areas have been marked with a light blue arrow. I suspect that these are not dangerous for the rope in practice. Although the rope may touch a sharp-edged area when swinging back and forth, this should not be enough to cut through the rope.

- In the setup shown in image 1, the distance between the anchor and the floor may not be large enough. In this case, the setup shown in image 2 can be used.




PICTURE 2 / SETUP 2




If the distance between the anchor knot and the floor is not large enough in setup 1, the top crossbar of the railing can be used if necessary (see image 2, the spot marked with a red X).


Evaluation of this setup 2:

- Compared to setup 1, the attachment to the upper crossbar in setup 2 exerts more unfavorable (stronger) lever forces on the railing and the railing attachment. I think the railing and bracket should still hold. After all, the process only takes a few minutes.

- Otherwise, the information provided for setup 1 / image 1 applies.



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I welcome feedback, especially constructive feedback! :)

Many thanks and best regards,
Suizident

 

[itsgone2]

Maybe I missed something, I'm not thinking straight today, but is this a setup you're considering? You say fictional but then I'm confused on why you're asking.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

I think you're overthinking it. If you have a railing, hang on it with all of your weight. If it holds without breaking or coming loose, you should be good to go.

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

Railings are designed to keep people from falling down. Therfore they are designed to withstand certain impact loads. They are suitable for full hanging.

 

[TheHolySword]

How public is this railing? Are you likely to be found?

 

[JesiBel]

I find setup #1 more convenient.

I think it's unlikely that the edges of the beam could cut the rope. (Even if you took your rope and started frantically rubbing it against that edge, you'd have a hard time cutting it)

Have you tried tying the rope and hanging from it with your hands, applying all your weight? Does it feel stable and firm? Did you hear any squeaking or feel any kind of movement?

Is the railing securely screwed to the wooden beam? Does it have all the screws and is it properly fastened?

Approximately how far would your feet be from the ground in setup #1? As long as you don't touch the ground, it will be full suspension. The only consideration will be that if it's a very short distance, perhaps when the rope stretches a little due to your weight you could end up touching the ground.

Using a double overhand knot on the free end of the ligature/anchor knot is a good idea to make them safer.

Setup #2, being further away from the strong points and where everything is fixed, doesn't give me much confidence.

 

[Suizident]

I think you're overthinking it. If you have a railing, hang on it with all of your weight. If it holds without breaking or coming loose, you should be good to go.

Good idea, but technically it's not possible. The railing is at a certain height, and I can't even do a single pull-up.

 

[itsgone2]

Good idea, but technically it's not possible. The railing is at a certain height, and I can't even do a single pull-up.

I had a hard time with this, I'm so weak right now from not eating. Try putting rope through it, hold onto rope, get feet off the floor. Seriously this would have been easy for me 6 months ago and I struggled with it, but finally got it.

 

[Suizident]

Railings are designed to keep people from falling down. Therfore they are designed to withstand certain impact loads. They are suitable for full hanging.

Yes, of course. But you still need to pay attention to a few things if you want to be absolutely sure you don't end up as a vegetable. There are wooden railings that almost fall apart just by looking at them. And a railing never has to bear the entire weight of a body under normal use.

Normally, a railing is only subjected to pressure from above when someone leans on it. A stair railing has low lateral tensile force. With a full suspension hang, there is downward tensile force. Dynamic tensile force. The load would have to be higher than with "normal use."

Some people use carabiners when building their anchor point (not needed here). Carabiners that can normally withstand 2000 kg are recommended. Even with normal body weight. This raises the question of whether a normal stair railing has such high redundancy.

A conversation with the AI revealed that with suspended loads, only about 10% of the "maximum force" (I can't remember the correct technical term right now) should be used. This is to safely buffer dynamic forces (lever forces when the load is moving).

But you're probably right. There is certainly a lot of buffer and redundancy involved. On the other hand, this is a safety-critical application. :)


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I find setup #1 more convenient.

I think it's unlikely that the edges of the beam could cut the rope. (Even if you took your rope and started frantically rubbing it against that edge, you'd have a hard time cutting it)

I agree with you.

Have you tried tying the rope and hanging from it with your hands, applying all your weight? Does it feel stable and firm? Did you hear any squeaking or feel any kind of movement?

No, I lack physical strength. So I will have to proceed heuristically or according to plausibility.

Is the railing securely screwed to the wooden beam? Does it have all the screws and is it properly fastened?

Those are good questions for a checklist. Thank you very much! :)

Approximately how far would your feet be from the ground in setup #1? As long as you don't touch the ground, it will be full suspension. The only consideration will be that if it's a very short distance, perhaps when the rope stretches a little due to your weight you could end up touching the ground.

That's the crucial question. I don't have it here on site and can't measure it.

It may be that the distance between the lower edge of the wooden beam and the floor is only 2.20 meters (7.21 feet). It shouldn't be less than that.

Let's assume that 2.20 m (7.21 feet) is the worst case scenario. Let's also assume that the head length is 20 cm (7.87 Zoll) . And let's assume that there should be a safety distance of 40 centimeters (15.74 zoll) between the feet and the floor.

With a body length of 1.80 meters, this results in 1.80 meters (5.9 feet) minus 20 centimeters (7.87 zoll) head length + 40 centimeters (15.74 zoll) = 2 meters of space required. If the distance between the sling knot and the beam should be at least one centimeter, would that be just enough?

Can this be calculated heuristically, or is it a milkmaid's calculation?

Using a double overhand knot on the free end of the ligature/anchor knot is a good idea to make them safer.

Thanks for confirming that. If you say so, then I can be absolutely sure! :) In the forum, I think you are one of the most knowledgeable users when it comes to this complex topic.

Setup #2, being further away from the strong points and where everything is fixed, doesn't give me much confidence.

I also think that long levers should be avoided. Let's assume a load of 70 kg (154.3 pounds). I think that with this load, it should still hold in most cases.



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I can think of another possible modification for setup 1. Don't place the anchor node at the green X, but at the red Y (see new image).



By placing it in the center, the load should be distributed more evenly between the two screw-fastening points on the railing (which I already find to be relatively close together).

Another advantage of this solution would be that the knot can hardly slip to the right or left, as it is stopped by the thin longitudinal rods.

Perhaps setup 2 could also be improved in this way?


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In your opinion, what could happen in the worst case scenario with setup 2? Hypothetically, the railing's fastening could tear out of the beam or the railing could bend. But the railing and the fastening seem to be relatively solid, so overall I think it's unlikely. If not very unlikely, the whole process only takes 10 minutes.


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Thanks and Greetings,
Suizident

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Good idea, but technically it's not possible. The railing is at a certain height, and I can't even do a single pull-up.

Can't you at least grab and hold onto it and see if it holds your weight - no pull-up necessary???

 

[Suizident]

Can't you at least grab and hold onto it and see if it holds your weight - no pull-up necessary???

To do that, I would probably have to hold onto the bar with my hands and hang freely in the air.

I'll try that as soon as I have the opportunity.

In the meantime, I'll have to content myself with theoretical considerations, or rather plausibility.

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However, I find it difficult to imagine a realistic scenario in which the railing would not hold. The railing also goes around the corner, as you can see in picture 1.

If the railing is to fall down, it is not enough for just one attachment point to tear out. All attachment points would have to tear out, and as long as that is not the case, the railing should hold and full suspense is still there.

It is also very difficult to imagine the bars bending.

 

[rozeske]

To do that, I would probably have to hold onto the bar with my hands and hang freely in the air.

Or you could pass the rope through the bar making a knot so it holds and grab the end and try it like a rope swing, should be easier than a typical pull-up.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

To do that, I would probably have to hold onto the bar with my hands and hang freely in the air.

That's all it would take to test it. I doubt it would come loose. The screws would be the failure point. If you go this route, tie the rope as low as possible.

 

[JesiBel]

That's the crucial question. I don't have it here on site and can't measure it.

It may be that the distance between the lower edge of the wooden beam and the floor is only 2.20 meters (7.21 feet). It shouldn't be less than that.

Let's assume that 2.20 m (7.21 feet) is the worst case scenario. Let's also assume that the head length is 20 cm (7.87 Zoll) . And let's assume that there should be a safety distance of 40 centimeters (15.74 zoll) between the feet and the floor.

With a body length of 1.80 meters, this results in 1.80 meters (5.9 feet) minus 20 centimeters (7.87 zoll) head length + 40 centimeters (15.74 zoll) = 2 meters of space required. If the distance between the sling knot and the beam should be at least one centimeter, would that be just enough?

Can this be calculated heuristically, or is it a milkmaid's calculation?


I also think that long levers should be avoided. Let's assume a load of 70 kg (154.3 pounds). I think that with this load, it should still hold in most cases.


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I can think of another possible modification for setup 1. Don't place the anchor node at the green X, but at the red Y (see new image).
View attachment 184443


By placing it in the center, the load should be distributed more evenly between the two screw-fastening points on the railing (which I already find to be relatively close together).

Another advantage of this solution would be that the knot can hardly slip to the right or left, as it is stopped by the thin longitudinal rods.

Perhaps setup 2 could also be improved in this way?


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In your opinion, what could happen in the worst case scenario with setup 2? Hypothetically, the railing's fastening could tear out of the beam or the railing could bend. But the railing and the fastening seem to be relatively solid, so overall I think it's unlikely. If not very unlikely, the whole process only takes 10 minutes.

40 cm is a decent amount of space between your feet and the ground; I think it would allow you to be suspended. If your rope is static, it won't stretch much.

The anchor point knot and the ligature knot can be close together or far apart; this will not affect the procedure. Make sure you are comfortable maneuvering when you need to position the ligature around the neck.

The modification for setup #1 is also a good option. You could even put the ligature higher since the metal end of the railing won't bother your head:

Spoiler

Setup #2, it just seemed weaker to me because it was higher up and further away from where everything is fixed. Probably nothing should break or fall apart or bend and put more stress on the screws.

(I prefer the safest option)

 

[Gustav Hartmann]

There are wooden railings that almost fall apart just by looking at them. And a railing never has to bear the entire weight of a body under normal use.

The police would not allow to enter ares with such railings in my country.

A conversation with the AI revealed that with suspended loads, only about 10% of the "maximum force"

If you don´t jump but put your weight slowly in the noose (what you should do anyhow in order to avoid unnecessary pain) the dynamic load is not much higher than the static load.

Can this be calculated heuristically, or is it a milkmaid's calculation?

The stretching of the rope is negligible especially if the rope is short, what it should be if there is little vertical space. The constriction of the neck causes a drop of 20 cm in my case. The circumference of my neck is reduced from 44 to 24 cm when the noose constricts and the difference between this two figurs has to slip through the knot of the noose and extend the length rope over the knot this way.

 

[Suizident]

That's all it would take to test it. I doubt it would come loose. The screws would be the failure point. If you go this route, tie the rope as low as possible.

I'm not quite sure how to do that. The railing is at a certain height. Maybe I could stand on a table.



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40 cm is a decent amount of space between your feet and the ground; I think it would allow you to be suspended. If your rope is static, it won't stretch much.

It's an estimate. What would be the minimum distance?

Of course, it would be more comfortable to have more space above your head. So you don't bump your head on the beam.

The anchor point knot and the ligature knot can be close together or far apart; this will not affect the procedure. Make sure you are comfortable maneuvering when you need to position the ligature around the neck.

Well, I think there should be at least 20 cm between the noose and the bottom edge of the beam so you don't hit your head on the beam?

The modification for setup #1 is also a good option. You could even put the ligature higher since the metal end of the railing won't bother your head:

Spoiler

View attachment 184553

Setup #2, it just seemed weaker to me because it was higher up and further away from where everything is fixed. Probably nothing should break or fall apart or bend and put more stress on the screws.

(I prefer the safest option)

You mean the idea of positioning the anchor knot in the middle between two vertical bars (red X) instead of close to a vertical bar (and thus close to a fastening screw)?

I thought so at first, but after discussing it with the AI, I changed my mind. The AI thinks that would be the worst anchor point. Reason:

The leverage and bending moment are greatest there. Even after many inquiries, the AI is still very sure, and I have to say that I now find the AI's argument plausible.

The AI says to always position it as close as possible to a screw connection point where the railing is attached. This is because the bending moment and leverage are smaller there. That's plausible.



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Let's assume that the double slip knot is placed where the pink X is in the image below:
Then the anchor knot would be very close to the screw connection and the bending moment and torque would be minimal.

But then something else would be strange:

- The force vector acting on the slip knot would not be directly vertical downwards (0 degrees), but "to the side" (90 degrees). What would that do to the slip knot? Would it no longer be as secure?


Perhaps negligible, but perhaps not:

- The rope would then rest lightly on the lower end of the vertical crossbar. This would perhaps take a little weight off the full suspension.

- And the rope could touch the "sharp-edged," open end of the lower vertical bar. However, I suspect that the rope would still not be in danger.



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The police would not allow to enter ares with such railings in my country.

If you don´t jump but put your weight slowly in the noose (what you should do anyhow in order to avoid unnecessary pain) the dynamic load is not much higher than the static load.

The stretching of the rope is negligible especially if the rope is short, what it should be if there is little vertical space. The constriction of the neck causes a drop of 20 cm in my case. The circumference of my neck is reduced from 44 to 24 cm when the noose constricts and the difference between this two figurs has to slip through the knot of the noose and extend the length rope over the knot this way.

That is very, very valuable information. Thank you very much!

This reduces the supposedly comfortable distance between your feet and the floor to a less comfortable 20 cm. Considering that your ankle needs to relax and your foot needs to be slightly stretched downwards, this is just enough for full suspension. It could even lead to involuntary partial suspension.

If the height is only slightly misjudged (5 to 10 cm), it would become partial suspension.

But it may still work overall. If the partial suspension is only slight and only occurs after unconsciousness sets in, it may not have any major disadvantages.

How long does it take for the neck to be constricted by 50%? 10 seconds? 1 minute? 10 minutes?




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Thanks und Best Regards,
Suizident

 

[locked*n*loaded]

I'm not quite sure how to do that. The railing is at a certain height. Maybe I could stand on a table.

Ladder? Climb over rail and let yourself down slowly?