Are we also programmed to want to die?

[Snake of Eden]

We know that naturally we are programmed to want to survive but are we also possibly programmed to suicide? I mean in hypothetical case if someone never heard of suicide in their lives and dont know such thing exist yet if the circumstances were right for them, would they naturally seek to ctb to end whatever they go through?

 

[Huntfish34]

I'm somewhat confused by this,. But I think I understand your main point. Good question, never would have thought about it like that.

Probably just depends on the person, state of mind, and their environment in general. Idk ? Just my .02

 

[FuneralCry]

The way I see it, humans are programmed to survive, as that is how we have evolved. We may want to die but our SI makes it hard for us.
I'm not exactly sure about your question, the way I see it is that suicide is a perfectly rational decision in many circumstances. For example if someone is trapped in a hopeless situation which will get worse in the future. In other cases many people simply just conclude that life is not worth living.

I think as humans we do not like to feel trapped and we naturally try to find solutions to what we perceive as a problem. Many people therefore come to the conclusion that to death is the only way to be free of their suffering as they have exhausted every possible solution/way to get out of their situation, and have reached the point of hopelessness.

 

[Alwaysbadtime]

I've read about animals who jump off cliffs and bridges...I don't recall the details but I suspect other mammals get fed up too. Idk.

 

[L-L]

There are some examples of animals in nature committing suicide - such as animals that mate for life staying by the body of their deceased until death (I saw one on an Attenborough once but I can't remember the name of the lizard), or ants that remove themselves from the colony if they're sick.

These don't quite tend the fit the same pattern that we see with humans, though. Although I imagine some people feel like they are doing it for reasons outlined above, a lot would probably argue that it's a bit of an oversimplification.

Overall, humans as a species have an innate and biological drive to want to survive. Unless we're 'programmed' wrong somehow - either genetically or through interaction and expression of genes in reaction to your environment - I think the simplest answer to your question is that unless something is very wrong you're programmed to survive. Explains why survival instinct can be such a devil to overcome.

 

[toforigivelife]

According to Freud humans have both the the Eros drive and the Thanatos drive.

The drive to live and the drive to die. The drive to survive and the drive to rest and be in a peaceful state, in a place where there is no pain or stress.

Eros and Thanatos: Freud’s two fundamental drives | Epoché Magazine

A free online philosophy magazine, delivered monthly

epochemagazine.org

I don't know that everyone has a subconscious urge to commit suicide but it makes sense that people have a deep desire to rest as well as having the primal fear of death.

 

[motel rooms]

According to Freud humans have both the the Eros drive and the Thanatos drive.

The drive to live and the drive to die. The drive to survive and the drive to rest and be in a peaceful state, in a place where there is no pain or stress.

Freud was largely a fraud... Yeah, he popularized the concept of the unconscious mind & he got some stuff about defense mechanisms right, but sooo much of what he wrote & taught is either ridiculously nebulous or just plain wrong. Worst of all, he purposely lied about his therapeutic results. He was intellectually dishonest & he's been thoroughly discredited as a scientist/psychologist. Psychoanalysis is a pseudoscience that miserably fails the test of falsifiability. And just ask the feminists what they think of misogynistic crap like "penis envy" & "innate female masochism"

 

[Flippy]

Freud was largely a fraud... Yeah, he popularized the concept of the unconscious mind & he got some stuff about defense mechanisms right, but sooo much of what he wrote & taught is either ridiculously nebulous or just plain wrong. Worst of all, he purposely lied about his therapeutic results. He was intellectually dishonest & he's been thoroughly discredited as a scientist/psychologist. Psychoanalysis is a pseudoscience that miserably fails the test of falsifiability. And just ask the feminists what they think of misogynistic crap like "penis envy" & "innate female masochism"

Amen brother! Testify! But, wait?! What?! A psychiatrist who is full of shit?! Well I never!? Seriously though, I think the field of psychiatry is based on a ton of unfalsifiable bullshit. Ever asked a psychiatrist to point to evidence for their claims or diagnosis? I have, and I tell you what, I've rarely witnessed a full grown adult turn so rapidly into a tantruming little child, shouting and snarling. Kinda ironic, considering it was I, according to his analysis, who couldn't control their emotions.

 

[toforigivelife]

Freud was largely a fraud... Yeah, he popularized the concept of the unconscious mind & he got some stuff about defense mechanisms right, but sooo much of what he wrote & taught is either ridiculously nebulous or just plain wrong. Worst of all, he purposely lied about his therapeutic results. He was intellectually dishonest & he's been thoroughly discredited as a scientist/psychologist. Psychoanalysis is a pseudoscience that miserably fails the test of falsifiability. And just ask the feminists what they think of misogynistic crap like "penis envy" & "innate female masochism"

I know people think Freud was an idiot. Maybe I shouldn't have been so lazy in my research.

As someone who has struggled with depression and SI since childhood - probably not unlike a lot of folks on this forum - I just remember hearing the Eros vs Thanatos theory in high school and how I related to the desire to live as well as the desire to die.

I've read quotes from public figures who were never suicidal having to deal with the sudden trauma of public humiliation making statements like, "If I had a gun I would've killed myself," only to have that suicidal urge pass.

So, Freud may not have been the best example, but I think there is something to the theory that we have a primal need to survive and a primal fear of death as well as maybe also a subconscious desire to escape life when it becomes too scary or to escape life in general or to escape the pain of clinical depression and other types of mental health problems.

 

[motel rooms]

but I think there is something to the theory that we have a primal need to survive and a primal fear of death as well as maybe also a subconscious desire to escape life when it becomes too scary or to escape life in general or to escape the pain of clinical depression and other types of mental health problems.

I don't think that our subconscious urge to escape pain is the same thing as this supposed subconscious desire to die/escape life. Yes, our subconscious wants to avoid pain, but it wants to avoid it in order to keep us alive; it's all about survival. That's why it's so incredibly hard to overcome our SI...

 

[Flippy]

I know people think Freud was an idiot. Maybe I shouldn't have been so lazy in my research.

As someone who has struggled with depression and SI since childhood - probably not unlike a lot of folks on this forum - I just remember hearing the Eros vs Thanatos theory in high school and how I related to the desire to live as well as the desire to die.

I've read quotes from public figures who were never suicidal having to deal with the sudden trauma of public humiliation making statements like, "If I had a gun I would've killed myself," only to have that suicidal urge pass.

So, Freud may not have been the best example, but I think there is something to the theory that we have a primal need to survive and a primal fear of death as well as maybe also a subconscious desire to escape life when it becomes too scary or to escape life in general or to escape the pain of clinical depression and other types of mental health problems.

I think the problem people have with Freud is that most of his theories aren't based on actual empirical evidence. This seems to be a genetic problem with psychiatry in general. Most of Freud's assertions were cooked up by his (if I remember accurately) cocaine fried mind.

The point is, like Freud, we can all invent theories to explain things. The issue is that in all other walks of life, except things like religion, we are required to present empirical evidence to back up our ideas. In psychiatry as with Freud his theories are presented as axioms. If you challenge them or find flaws, then they usually have a nice "diagnosis" to explain why you are in denial. Then you've got layers and layers of nonsense to "explain". According to Occam's razor, you don't increase explanatory power by increasing complexity.

Of course the psychiatrist will say that their trade is more of an art than a science. ("Special Pleading" if you are interested in logical fallacies!) But I doubt you would trust an artist to say, create a covid vaccine or perform open heart surgery. I simply will not offer deference or respect to someone who believes that they can avoid the burden of proof.

My theory as to why we have this cognitive dissonance when it comes to wanting to survive while wanting to die is that suicide is an intellectual resolution to suffering. I'm not making any arguments about it being right or wrong. Survival is like a perpetual loop like a piece of code that runs in our instinctive brain. And here's the bit that may take a bit of a leap, but it's based on the way we conceptualise pain.

We want to "survive" pain by making it stop. It may just be that counter intuitively we resolve this by even being prepared to die to "survive" it. We may be the only beings that understand our own mortality so we end up ironically understanding that the solution will result in death. So we end up constrained by the "survival loop".

Well at least that's my sleep deprived brains way of attempting to articulate it. Sorry if it's more jumbled than I perceive it to be!

 

[motel rooms]

It would definitely be much easier to ctb if our subconscious were ambivalent about living, if this Freudian desire to die were a real thing. Unfortunately, it isn't. The lizard brain only wants to live - it only wants to avoid/escape pain & live/not die. That's why members of this forum keep repeating, "I don't really want to die, I just want the fucking pain to go away."

 

[Versailles]

Here I make a difference between the mind and the body with respect to the SI, it is possible that an intense desire to die occurs in the mind but the body will never change the SI, so it is almost impossible for both parties to agree

 

[Flippy]

It would definitely be much easier to ctb if our subconscious were ambivalent about dying, if this Freudian desire to die were a real thing. Unfortunately, it isn't. The lizard brain only wants to live - it only wants to avoid/escape pain & live/not die. That's why members of this forum keep repeating, "I don't really want to die, I just want the fucking pain to go away."

Very true! If the human race were half as altruistic as it likes to pat itself on the back for then it seems to me a lot of people's pain would be recognised and possibly eradicated. It seems we are very good at doing the "professional mourning" when someone ctb because of the pain they are in but apparently not so good at helping them "anti mortem".

Strange isn't it, that the same people who talk about how wonderful the world is, are the very same who in the next breath will gleefully tell us all how it's a "dog eat dog world"?