Discussion After experiencing life as a mortal (as Jesus,) why didn't God make changes?

[Forever Sleep]

To be transparent, I'm a borderline atheist anyway. I'm not sure I even believe in a God. Also, I don't wish to insult or upset faithful people here. So- if you find religion bashing offensive- please avoid the thread.

I suppose the fundamental problem I have with God/ religion- is looking at how this world has been created to begin with. Where creatures literally have to prey on other sentient creatures in order to survive- causing them fear and pain. There truly are some horrific examples in nature- let alone what humans are capable of. But, knowing all that exists and is playing out at this moment- I find it hard/ impossible to square that with a fair, good, fatherly God.

I've sometimes seen the argument that they are God so- we shouldn't be questioning them. Also that- as a God- they exist on such a separate plain of existence to mortal life scratching around in the dirt. Maybe they can't even comprehend what they created.

But then- if the religious believe that God was Jesus for a time. Then presumably- they did experience what it was like to be human. Plus- how painful it was to be crucified.

My annoyance is- following that experience- even if God were some mad, irresponsible scientist character that clumsily just invented life- without really understanding or considering what it entailed for those living. After experiencing the actual thing- why didn't God make some tweaks?

Surely, Jesus must have been astounded by how much pain we can experience. How much hatred we can harbor. How much violence and pain there is in both the human and animal worlds. Having gone through so much pain personally, why did he not then have more sympathy towards those suffering, once back in the creator role?

It's one thing to say a teacher wants students to figure stuff out on their own. That's reasonable. It respects autonomy and choice. If however- the class is made up of robots that the teacher designed- then, they were the ones to have slipped those faults into them! Why allow them to suffer and hurt one another because of that design fault? Why not tweak the design at that point?

I can only interpret it that Jesus/ God witnessed first hand their own creation and felt entirely pleased with it. That all the myriad problems here had nothing to do with their original design. That in fact- it was all down to how that design had evolved by itself into (sometimes) something monstrous and dangerous.

It would seem to me like the CEO of an AI robot company wandering around a test group where some robots are raping the guests. Some are stoning them to death or strapping them to crosses and the CEO is saying- everything looks fine with the initial design. Maybe just give a couple of them a refresher course in morals. Then, we're good to go.

The other reason for leaving the situation where some beings here are pretty much guaranteed to hurt others is that God needs that mechanism in place for judgement. To be able to sort the wheat from the chaff- as it were. Presumably to be able to punish the wicked.

But then- they are 'wicked' because they are simply acting out the faults that existed within them from the start- designed by God.

I just don't get it. How can we not believe that God designed peadophilia? If it exists then- God either intended its presence or was too weak or complacent to prevent it. How do we square that with even a moral being? That is willing to sacrifice children? I just don't understand how people can believe that God is good.

I suppose I simply figure that it's out of fear. Which I understand. I'm sure it's safer to try or pretend to love such a powerful and volatile figure. It doesn't feel honest to me though. Not in my heart. Truthfully, I feel repulsed by a being that created some of the things on this earth. Not all of course- there are some beautiful and amazing things too. But- what was the need for all the horrible stuff?

 

[wine is fine but]

if there is a god, the premise is that we are to make our own way in life, be it good or bad
but for the most part, maybe the only part, in reality what happens on this planet means nothing

now, i am not for one second saying it is good that people are going through pain, torture or other horrible situations, but
once death is achieved, if we all go up to heaven for all eternity, then up to 100 years here will be quickly forgotten, even the pain part. for me, hard times on earth do not prove or disprove a presence of god, because the rewards at the end of it are . . . literally heaven

 

[Forever Sleep]

if there is a god, the premise is that we are to make our own way in life, be it good or bad
but for the most part, maybe the only part, in reality what happens on this planet means nothing

now, i am not for one second saying it is good that people are going through pain, torture or other horrible situations, but
once death is achieved, if we all go up to heaven for all eternity, then up to 100 years here will be quickly forgotten, even the pain part. for me, hard times on earth do not prove or disprove a presence of god, because the rewards at the end of it are . . . literally heaven

I suppose it just seems weird to me though. What was the point of a few years on earth to either qualify or disqualify for an eternity somewhere else and- doing what exactly? For an eternity? Is this the exam period for what comes next? Like, an eternal rewards ceremony? I hope not. My degree rewards ceremony was one of the most boring days of my life.

Surely- what happens on this planet means everything- if it results in either entry into paradise or being condemned to burn in hell?

It's not so much (for me) that hard times on earth disprove the presence of a God. More that they don't align with a good, moral or fair God being in charge. That's my concern. I actually find the argument sometimes put forward that God can't be good so- they therefore don't exist- kind of weird. My argument leans more towards- the reality of this world points more towards a fire and brimstone volatile, narcissitic and psychopathic character- rather than the kindly teacher, father figure people like to believe God is.

 

[itsgone2]

once death is achieved, if we all go up to heaven for all eternity, then up to 100 years here will be quickly forgotten, even the pain part. for me, hard times on earth do not prove or disprove a presence of god, because the rewards at the end of it are . . . literally heaven

I thought this way for a long time but it's fading. I'm in so much mental and physical pain from the stress and regret and worry and everything else. It's every moment of every day. I've been a horrible person and I don't know why. I don't think it can be forgotten. I've begged God so many times to let it stop and nothing.
My father died young. An accident that was his fault. A mistake. How could he enjoy heaven, with his family in so much pain? How will I?
It no longer makes sense to me

 

[isthisit?]

To be transparent, I'm a borderline atheist anyway. I'm not sure I even believe in a God. Also, I don't wish to insult or upset faithful people here. So- if you find religion bashing offensive- please avoid the thread.

I suppose the fundamental problem I have with God/ religion- is looking at how this world has been created to begin with. Where creatures literally have to prey on other sentient creatures in order to survive- causing them fear and pain. There truly are some horrific examples in nature- let alone what humans are capable of. But, knowing all that exists and is playing out at this moment- I find it hard/ impossible to square that with a fair, good, fatherly God.

I've sometimes seen the argument that they are God so- we shouldn't be questioning them. Also that- as a God- they exist on such a separate plain of existence to mortal life scratching around in the dirt. Maybe they can't even comprehend what they created.

But then- if the religious believe that God was Jesus for a time. Then presumably- they did experience what it was like to be human. Plus- how painful it was to be crucified.

My annoyance is- following that experience- even if God were some mad, irresponsible scientist character that clumsily just invented life- without really understanding or considering what it entailed for those living. After experiencing the actual thing- why didn't God make some tweaks?

Surely, Jesus must have been astounded by how much pain we can experience. How much hatred we can harbor. How much violence and pain there is in both the human and animal worlds. Having gone through so much pain personally, why did he not then have more sympathy towards those suffering, once back in the creator role?

It's one thing to say a teacher wants students to figure stuff out on their own. That's reasonable. It respects autonomy and choice. If however- the class is made up of robots that the teacher designed- then, they were the ones to have slipped those faults into them! Why allow them to suffer and hurt one another because of that design fault? Why not tweak the design at that point?

I can only interpret it that Jesus/ God witnessed first hand their own creation and felt entirely pleased with it. That all the myriad problems here had nothing to do with their original design. That in fact- it was all down to how that design had evolved by itself into (sometimes) something monstrous and dangerous.

It would seem to me like the CEO of an AI robot company wandering around a test group where some robots are raping the guests. Some are stoning them to death or strapping them to crosses and the CEO is saying- everything looks fine with the initial design. Maybe just give a couple of them a refresher course in morals. Then, we're good to go.

The other reason for leaving the situation where some beings here are pretty much guaranteed to hurt others is that God needs that mechanism in place for judgement. To be able to sort the wheat from the chaff- as it were. Presumably to be able to punish the wicked.

But then- they are 'wicked' because they are simply acting out the faults that existed within them from the start- designed by God.

I just don't get it. How can we not believe that God designed peadophilia? If it exists then- God either intended its presence or was too weak or complacent to prevent it. How do we square that with even a moral being? That is willing to sacrifice children? I just don't understand how people can believe that God is good.

I suppose I simply figure that it's out of fear. Which I understand. I'm sure it's safer to try or pretend to love such a powerful and volatile figure. It doesn't feel honest to me though. Not in my heart. Truthfully, I feel repulsed by a being that created some of the things on this earth. Not all of course- there are some beautiful and amazing things too. But- what was the need for all the horrible stuff?

We should be happy with what god created. Is there bad in this world, yes, but think of the alternatives. We can either live in a 100% good world, that is free of sin, but then we wont be human or have free will. The other alternative is that god just doesnt make us. What I mean by that is that god doesnt need us to exist. Our relationship with god is not one of 2 equals but of an omnipotent being, who out of his love made us.
"Not all of course- there are some beautiful and amazing things too. But- what was the need for all the horrible stuff?" - Ask that from yourself, god didnt invent pedophilia, we did as humans.
My entire point boils down to this: is there evil yes, but that is the price of freedom and its worth it. Dont you agree?

 

[Forever Sleep]

My entire point boils down to this: is there evil yes, but that is the price of freedom and its worth it. Dont you agree?

I'm not sure. Isn't it maybe about the capacity to do evil? Both photosythenthesis and carnivorism exists. One creates energy via syntheisizing rays from the sun. The other murders sentient beings and sometimes starts eating them while they are still alive and in pain.

Do plants necessarily feel like they are being deprived of an experience because they simply weren't designed to murder other animals (most plants anyway.) It seems unlikely. By not giving something the capacity to be able to do harmful acts in the first place- will it really feel like it missed out? It can surely still make decisions. Just not ones that create immense suffering to others.

I'm sure plenty of people would like to be able to fly (without having to pay to travel.) But- we were limited in that way. How difficult would it have been to put some limitations in place to stop some of the hideous ways in which we behave?

God presumably knew full well that we have both the capacity and gave us the temptation to act in ways that harm both ourselves and others. Why give us the temptation in the first place? To test whether we can resist it? Again though- what happens when we can't? The innocent suffer. Personally- I'm not sure that that is worth it.

I suppose there are human equivalents. I'm from the UK- so- the idea that most people have the right to carry firearms is strange to me. I just see it as inviting disaster too. Plenty of people can't be trusted to carry arms. If that means restricting what we perceive as 'freedom' then- fine. Having grown up not believing I have the right to own a gun though- it isn't a massive contention for me. It's annoying of course- in relation to suicide but as in pertains to overall society- I feel safer.

The point I'm trying to make though is- if we knew no different- if we simply didn't have the desire to do some of the really awful things we do do- as a species- we wouldn't feel like our freedoms were being restricted. It would just be a different 'normal'.

 

[itsgone2]

My entire point boils down to this: is there evil yes, but that is the price of freedom and its worth it. Dont you agree?

I'm sorry but no I don't agree. I've made terrible mistakes that are evil. I've hurt people. I now realize and deal with the pain of regret. I'm alive in a nightmare. No, I'd rather have been different. Forced to be, no free will in that. It didn't need to be perfect. I had good and I'd do anything to have it back