Discussion What makes you think you are mentally competent?

[Forever Sleep]

Assuming that you do believe that, of course. But, I still get the sense that a lot of pro- lifers equate ideation as an automatic indicator that a person is mentally incompetent.

After the IC SN welfair checks, I was put in touch with a 'helpline' and, after guilt tripping didn't work: 'Think what it would do to your loved ones.' (It's not like I was imminently about to do it anyway.) They touched on mental competency. It made me so angry but, I felt it wiser not to show that. Now, I kind of wished I'd challenged them on that. Asked whether they were questioning my competency. But then, it felt safer not to rattle the cage. It was actually kind of terrifying that someone who was possibly manipulative could also become vindictive and had the power to section me if they saw fit. Not that the UK has the resources really. I doubt I'd be so very different to the staff in those places.

For me, I suppose I'd argue, it's because I don't see it as my only option. It isn't the option I've taken for the 35 years I've had ideation. I've made reasoned decisions that the pain it would likely cause loved ones would indeed be immense. So, I've done my best to struggle on. I've also tried multiple things to improve my life. From self help books, some therapy and meds, lifestyle and diet changes, career changes, moving around locations. I've tried multiple things. I also have clear reasons as to why even my best future doesn't seem worth the effort. I've taken the time to research suicide methods and prepare. Whatever I do, it won't be impulsive.

I'll concede that I may have very long- term depression but, the meds I did try did nothing. I also don't have the confidence in psychiatric healthcare- especially when it comes to drugs, to allow them to experiment on me. I don't believe they sufficiently know about the brain or, what they're doing with it. So- I think it's my reasonable right to refuse such treatment 'opportunities'. Not to knock what other people choose to do of course.

How about you though? Do you have full confidence in your mental competency? Especially with regards to your thoughts around suicide?

 

[Freedombus'25]

Shall reply later maybe

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

"Do you have full confidence in your mental competency? Especially with regards to your thoughts around suicide?"

Yes. My suicide is the most rational act i could do by far

Is it rational or logical to waste many hours per day watching "youtube Videos news social media, Tv ? No

Why do i have to live another minute ? there is no objective reason.

anyone can do a rational pros and cons analysis and see that the suffering outweighs any dumb pleasure addiction. And there is always the probability of something extremely horrible happening to any human or other sentient animal.

what's worth even 10 minutes of the worst constant worst pain every second? imo nothing. to me nothing is worth even 1 second of the worst pain.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Do you have full confidence in your mental competency? Especially with regards to your thoughts around suicide?

Yes.

My suicidal thoughts are a result of external circumstances. Neither "helplines" nor medication can solve this.

It's a rational decision to problems if they cannot be solved otherwise.

 

[VoidButterfly]

I have many reasons to believe I am fully capable of this choice.

My mental capacity is constantly and invasively reviewed and found to be sound.

I have lost track of the number of times mental health practitioners have told me they understand my reasons and that they're good reasons to avoid trying to sound like they're dismissing my problems. The problems are not fixable and they're going to get worse and I can't take them as they are. They cannot be fixed and will not get better.

I am bipolar and that does impact my ability to make this decision sometimes, but not all the time. Except for when I'm manic, I'm always suicidal. I suspect I've just come out of a depressive episode because the intensity generally has gone down and I'm still here and still wanting to ctb.

 

[SoulWantsHome]

But, I still get the sense that a lot of pro- lifers equate ideation as an automatic indicator that a person is mentally incompetent.

People who believe that most suicidal people are "mentally incompetent" (although some suicidal people truly are mentally incompetent), demonstrate that they themselves are mentally incompetent.

Most suicidal people are suicidal based on a rational conclusion, regarding solving their problem in the best/most realistically effective way - which often happens to be suicide, due to their particular situation.

I also don't have the confidence in psychiatric healthcare- especially when it comes to drugs, to allow them to experiment on me. I don't believe they sufficiently know about the brain or, what they're doing with it. So- I think it's my reasonable right to refuse such treatment 'opportunities'.

This is spot on.

How about you though? Do you have full confidence in your mental competency? Especially with regards to your thoughts around suicide?

Definitely. To question my mental competency, would be a joke.

 

[WakingNightmare]

I have no mental illness I just want to leave, also it's not up to others to decide whether I am competent or not

 

[chudeatte]

I think it is the most rational decision ive come to. I know I will never succeed in life and I have tried for so long to combat these feelings, but it's the one outcome I always come back to. its inevitable in my mind, and no kind of help will ever fix the issues that I have currently and will face in the future, only prolonging the final decision and therefore making me suffer through life more. maybe im not fully competent because of my depression, but I am only being realistic about my life. no mental health professional will ever understand my perspective, so their help is limited by what they view as help, not what I think is help. and honestly, the only hope in fixing my issues is to ctb

 

[dontwakemeup]

People are uncomfortable with death no matter what the reason is. Is an older lady wants to stop chemo and aware they will die, people would never agree and encourage her to keep living. The person during chemo has several unpleasant side effects, but it's never justified to stop chemo. Are the mentally competent to decide to stop chemo? Absolutely, they are, in my opinion.

We are all here for several different reasons. I can explain my story of trauma, abuse, chronic pain, etc, and you will understand the why. What I find disturbing is people force me to keep going. If at any point I decide I don't want to continue dealing with all of this is where psychiatrist draw the line. This would be the time my competency is greatly judged. I'm able to work and function just like the pro-lifers do. I'm expected to keep going no matter the challenges I face daily. In reality, I challenge their competency to decide they know the magnitude and impact these situations have on people.

I've made a decision to never speak to a therapist/ psychiatrist forever. If I can't be honest and open then I don't see the value in using these services, but I've tried. I'm more than competent to say I'm ready to go and I simply can't say that to anyone. There is no chemical imbalance for my situation. So I'm just waiting to die. If I decide the time to attempt again has come, I will. I think people believe we have a bad day and snap and make an impulsive decision, that isn't true. We suffer for years in silence until we decide we can't do it anymore. At no time I believe I was ever incompetent to say I'm done.

 

[Freedombus'25]

I wrote this earlier but edited bc... anxiety. Very adhd and such soo but these are my thoughts.


I have mixed feelings on my mental competency. Not bc of suicidality but bc of various hormonal health issues that really likeeee fuck with my mental. It's a lot to get into or explain but I'll just mention the names. PCOS, PMDD, and endometriosis. Plus other disorders mental & physical. The hormones overtake my mind at times but.



Its physiologically, psychological, etc etc but not enough info or studies on all of em. Though more coming out but its still so misunderstood. I think if I was to live outta vengeance or spite It'd be bc so many wanna write off these issues as hysteria(like a lot of "womens"health) and I refuse to let that be.





If I was to live I've always been interested in science and such. Especially neuroscience & psychology. Would definitely do schooling and get a job to further research and treatment.







All that to say I'd say my mental competency around suicidality is ok. I've been dealing with it since my first memories at 2yrs old. Im used to it. With all I'm dealing with health wise it makes sense im suicidal. I've had multiple people comment on my competency while in crisis. In positive ways. But when im not so composed or they don't understand it looks different.



But many a comments/compliments about how... mentally competent I am when in crisis which is weird but alas. Im very analytical. Among other things. So. I dunno. Its easy to display traits people attribute to sanity when unwell but I think its... odd. Unfair to others etc.



Also struggle with sleep disorders and shit so it just depends.



I think im competent mentally. I just think I'm going through wayyyyy too much.





This is jumbled maybe? But its early in the morn, im nervous about posting my thoughts. And yeah...





I just think the concept is bullshit and inherently ableist. Its an easy labeling thing to put others down or lift people up in this odd way. I can't really express my thoughts too too much atm honestly tho. So I hope this makes sense.





Great question as always and sorry you had that welfare check experience. So many people in crisis like support jobs but have no idea wtf they are doing(another rant for another day

 

[LaVieEnRose]

How about you though? Do you have full confidence in your mental competency? Especially with regards to your thoughts around suicide?

Yes I do. What makes me confident in that? That is an interesting question because veryone who kills themselves believed they were acting rationally. Rationality seems like a hard thing to gauge and it's definitely something people can be very sensitive about, especially on here. If something someone writes strikes you as lacking rationality (which is something we are all susceptible to) its a tricky thing to try to make express that without ruffling feathers. That's why people disavow the notion of being mentally ill because in the wider world it is conflated with being irrational across the board.

So what does make me confident? I suppose it's the sheer length of time I've consistently been dealing with these thoughts and how they have never yielded and the amount of reflection I've devoted to them as well analyzing the nature of my hesitation. I definitely always encourage deep reflection. I don't like the idea along the lines of "it's your right, any reason is valid no matter what" that is sometimes promoted here.

 

[brighteyesfan144]

1. I understand the relevant information, i.e., the nature of my condition, options available, and what suicide entails. I have incurable disorders, both physical and mental, that cause me and sometimes even those around me great suffering. I even know that there is even the possibility that I will be met with a horrible afterlife and would need to take that chance if I ever decide to pull the plug. I so far have not explored treatment because I have a degree in psychology and know how to help myself, and don't trust psychiatrists who rarely have psychology degrees and have the legal power to force you on the most soul-destroying substances once they find out you're suicidal. Not to mention, if I ever did go, I would be barred by the MTO to drive for a career which is something I did in the past and may do in the future, so it destroys a lot of career options. But, I think before I commit, I would attempt to live on government benefits and get psychiatric treatment save I don't have to consume antipsychotics.
2. I appreciate the consequences of my decision. I recognize how my decision affects others, and I only have one person in the world who cares about me enough to call me or help me when things get rough. It sucks if they feel hurt that I am not around anymore, but I have already let them know I won't be around anymore dead or alive. So I basically have zero people dead or alive who will really care about my death. I can also weigh the pros and cons of death meaningfully, and actually this is what makes me struggle to kill myself, because I might be able to offer something to the world with my being alive, and if possible, would outweigh the suffering which feels unbearable.
3. I can reason logically about the decision. I would rather die than experience lifelong homelessness, physical illness, and a horrific combo of bipolar-2, C-PTSD, BPD, AuDHD, and possibly schizophrenia. The choice would need to be consistent for at least 3 years, and so far I've only been consistent for about 3 months. I was suicidal two years ago but I'm happy I didn't go through with it because life improved significantly for a second there, but then plummeted to worse than I could ever imagine. I don't have psychosis or delusions, but I might have severe depression clouding my judgement.
4. I'm not being coerced and technically haven't flipped back and forth as I've never begun acting on my suicidal plans. If I started taking steps towards acquiring my substance and then flip-flopped on whether to take it, I would maybe need a little more time to assess my mental competence.

---

I can pass structured tools used by clinicians with flying colors, such as MacCAT-T or MMSE

In short, I'm not delusional, overly depressed, psychotic, impulsive, unable to recognize future possibilities or social supports, and I don't lack the understanding of the consequences of my decision. I am just taking it in stride and if I decide that my life is not worth living, I think it is my right as a citizen to be able to take myself out of the equation. There is no need to burden the system and taxpayer dollars if I cannot contribute meaningfully to society.

 

[offbalance]

The way I see it, I'm depressed yes, but for valid reasons that are based in reality. I acknowledge however that other people are stronger than me, but I have found I'm unable to be strong. Even when I try. So why not end my suffering? I guess that makes me mentally incompetent in a way, I don't know, but at least I recognize my limitations.

 

[Forever Sleep]

The way I see it, I'm depressed yes, but for valid reasons that are based in reality. I acknowledge however that other people are stronger than me, but I have found I'm unable to be strong. Even when I try. So why not end my suffering? I guess that makes me mentally incompetent in a way, I don't know, but at least I recognize my limitations.

The idea of strength is an interesting but unfortunate one. I suspect we all get subjected to that criticism. That others have so much more to deal with and yet, continue to live- even thrive.

Does that have anything to do with mental competency though- I wonder. I tend to take compency to mean understanding. Surely, if we can accurately appraise our situations, that demonstrates an understanding. Even if that does mean admitting that we don't seem to have 'enough' resilience in certain circumstances- compared to others.

I suppose it's where we go from there that matters also. To recognise the deficiency in the first place, I would argue suggests competency. But, what's causing it? Can we fix it? Do we want to fix it? Just because we may also feel that our particular problems feel too monumental/ deeply unpleasant to overcome- I don't see how that should make us incompetent as such.

Someone earlier made the brilliant comparison to a patient rejecting chemotherapy- even though it would likely enable them to live longer. Are they 'crazy' or mentally incompetent to make that decision? Surely not. They likely considered the unpleasant side effects and decided that they didn't want to live like that. So, they accepted likely having a shorter life as a consequence.

I'd argue that, in order to 'recover', people going through mental/ emotional/ situational circumstances may also have to suffer or at least struggle in the hopes that their efforts will make things better.

For example- to tackle my social anxiety- I'd obvioustly need to force myself to be more sociable. Which I would likely hate! I'm not willing to put myself through that. I've simply accepted it will always be a problem for me and, I've allowed it to hold me back.

The other issue being that the goal or prize we are supposed to be working towards- a happier life presumably, may simply seem too fantastical or, not actually worth the effort. Is that so delusional or mentally incompetent to believe either? Just how many people are living blissful, incredible lives?

I'd accept that an overly negatively skewed perspective means perhaps we are making a false judgement that things will never get better. We're irredeemably stuck and unfixable. That could then make us lean towards suicide when there were in fact other options.

Presumably though- that's why we seek out help from 'professionals'. And, I imagine most people here have tried that at some point. If we still feel this way after that though- then clearly, it hasn't worked! How long and how many different things are we supposed to try before they will agree that whatever problem we have is treatment resistant?

If it's treatment resistant, then it's factual. We will always be stuck with that particular problem. We'll always experience life in that (unpleasant) way. So again- why is it then mentally incompetent to assert that we don't want to live like that?

 

[cowboypants]

Like you and many others have said I've tried various approaches and even tried learning stuff myself, with no light in sight. And there seems to be a long way to go before psychiatry reaches maturity.

Suicide seems to be the rational choice. I mean i can push if i have money but well we are in a world with so little resources

 

[CumbriaCTB]

Oh, no, I certainly am mentally incompetent. In fact, the notoriously-stingy DWP has deemed me so mentally incompetent that I get Universal Credit, along with my rent paid, the extra £400 that comes with Limited Capability for Work-Related Activity, in addition to the Daily Living and Mobilty components (both Enhanced) from Personal Independence Payment. The grand total is something around £25k per year.

Sometimes I think I'm being paid this much just to guarantee that I don't go anywhere near a workplace - or any public place, for that matter - ever again and, like I did in three different unpaid work experience positions, cause problems for the actual tax-paying employees by having mental breakdowns and cutting myself on the job. It's probably cheaper for the Government to just throw pocket change at me rather than having to clean up the mess whenever I venture outside; it's certainly cheaper than sending me back to the psych ward or throwing me in the gaol - what is it, £40k per year per prisoner? Considering I've barely left the house since January and stopped completely in June... the DWP's master-plan is indeed working as intended.

Now, regarding the rationality of my CTB. It would certainly be rational for the Government to save an extra £25k yearly by just letting me CTB - they could put that money into the NHS or give it into some politician as "expenses" so he can buy a new Volvo! Yet I've woken up in A&E after a failed CTB attempt before so clearly the Government has other reasons for keeping me alive. There's a thread on here about that topic so maybe I'll head over there and give them my two-pence once I'm done here.

As for the acting of CTBing myself. Yeah, that's definitely rational despite me being otherwise mentally incompetent. Perhaps my tone, amd the fact that I don't care about whether or not I'm competent, makes my life sound pretty easy but, no, it's pretty awful despite essentially getting paid for existing. Shutting myself away shields me from external stressors, yes, but I have enough internal stressors (mainly PTSD and loneliness) to make life a living hell for me no matter what. There is also no cure for what I have and I know this because I've tried - and, to be honest, I don't even see a scenario in which I'm truly happy regardless of what I do.

Therapists would, at least before I disengaged completely, tell me that I "need to believe" but... what if I don't believe? They're completely stumped whenever I've asked them that - and I'm fully sincere when I do ask too: I'd like them to give me a real answer to that question but they simply cannot. These people have no idea what to say when the person sitting opposite them is so fundamentally broken that they don't even want to be happy anymore. You can't "save" somebody when they've been in that mental state for over a decade. And so CTBing is a rational escape from inescapable pain.

Would the NHS, the local newspaper, and the general public see it as rational? No, of course not! They'd see my inevitable self-inflicted death as yet another act of mental incompetence that the mental health or legal systems "didn't do enough" to prevent and, to be honest, I don't care. Heck, I've met people in real-life who, upon finding out that I want to kill myself, just went "yeah, that makes sense" and were completely unsurprised by this relevation.

Maybe me CTBing is rational, maybe I'm doing this out of sheer mental incompetence, but it seems that it makes sense to people either way and so I'm fine with that.

Sincerely,
CumbriaCTB

 

[offbalance]

The idea of strength is an interesting but unfortunate one. I suspect we all get subjected to that criticism. That others have so much more to deal with and yet, continue to live- even thrive.

Does that have anything to do with mental competency though- I wonder. I tend to take compency to mean understanding. Surely, if we can accurately appraise our situations, that demonstrates an understanding. Even if that does mean admitting that we don't seem to have 'enough' resilience in certain circumstances- compared to others.

I suppose it's where we go from there that matters also. To recognise the deficiency in the first place, I would argue suggests competency. But, what's causing it? Can we fix it? Do we want to fix it? Just because we may also feel that our particular problems feel too monumental/ deeply unpleasant to overcome- I don't see how that should make us incompetent as such.

Someone earlier made the brilliant comparison to a patient rejecting chemotherapy- even though it would likely enable them to live longer. Are they 'crazy' or mentally incompetent to make that decision? Surely not. They likely considered the unpleasant side effects and decided that they didn't want to live like that. So, they accepted likely having a shorter life as a consequence.

I'd argue that, in order to 'recover', people going through mental/ emotional/ situational circumstances may also have to suffer or at least struggle in the hopes that their efforts will make things better.

For example- to tackle my social anxiety- I'd obvioustly need to force myself to be more sociable. Which I would likely hate! I'm not willing to put myself through that. I've simply accepted it will always be a problem for me and, I've allowed it to hold me back.

The other issue being that the goal or prize we are supposed to be working towards- a happier life presumably, may simply seem too fantastical or, not actually worth the effort. Is that so delusional or mentally incompetent to believe either? Just how many people are living blissful, incredible lives?

I'd accept that an overly negatively skewed perspective means perhaps we are making a false judgement that things will never get better. We're irredeemably stuck and unfixable. That could then make us lean towards suicide when there were in fact other options.

Presumably though- that's why we seek out help from 'professionals'. And, I imagine most people here have tried that at some point. If we still feel this way after that though- then clearly, it hasn't worked! How long and how many different things are we supposed to try before they will agree that whatever problem we have is treatment resistant?

If it's treatment resistant, then it's factual. We will always be stuck with that particular problem. We'll always experience life in that (unpleasant) way. So again- why is it then mentally incompetent to assert that we don't want to live like that?

Yeah the idea of strength sure is interesting. I know my life would be improved if I had more strength. I guess my hang up is that the world is ugly, and a chaotic lottery, so I don't feel really motivated to try for it. Whether that's a pathology, I don't know honestly

 

[SilentSadness]

I am mentally competent because I am capable of weighing up the pros and cons of living, and the ethics of forcing someone to be born and stay alive. The people who always assume that living is necessary and wishing to die is a mental illness are the ones who aren't capable of that, so if anything, they're the ones who are closer to being "mentally ill". But I also don't blindly accuse people of being mentally ill, since I know how terrible the consequences can be for people labelled mentally ill, so I'm capable of factoring that in too. If someone says that I'm not mentally competent because I'm on this site, that's just disgusting, and extremely anti-free speech in this political environment.

 

[TAW122]

I agree with you that it was the 'wiser' decision to not challenge the authorities on mental competency even if you are correct (aka to not rattle the cage) because that would only (in the larger picture) result in potentially worse consequences. Of course, every interaction and depending on one's jurisdiction (UK, USA, other countries) will be different but even a victory would still not really be a victory with potentially worse consequences (more scrutiny, inspection, or even unwanted attention). I know the urge to be right and I had similar feelings too but rationally, yeah it's probably better to not challenge them to not make things more difficult.

With regards to psychiatry, psychotherapy, meds, and similarly, I agree with you. A lot of psychiatry and psychotherapy is considered a 'pseudoscience' and there isn't really isn't an objective measure (unlike other physical sciences) and existentialgoof's many posts really summarize the point pretty well. I also am antipsychiatry for similar reasons and what not as well, but I digress..

To answer your question, I think objective tests that demonstrates that one is capable of making rational decisions, understanding the consequences of that decision, along with consistent, unwavering desire to want to go through (could be a waiting period) should be more than enough evidence to prove that one is mentally competent. In fact, people have made really bad (also permanent) decisions and most of society don't really go to intervene and prevent such a decision. I think most of society ultimately has a problem with one choosing death (it offends and bothers them) so they do anything and everything (even being hypocritical themselves and contradicting their own values) to prevent it, regardless of the circumstances, with maybe the exception of terminal illness..

People are uncomfortable with death no matter what the reason is. Is an older lady wants to stop chemo and aware they will die, people would never agree and encourage her to keep living. The person during chemo has several unpleasant side effects, but it's never justified to stop chemo. Are the mentally competent to decide to stop chemo? Absolutely, they are, in my opinion.

We are all here for several different reasons. I can explain my story of trauma, abuse, chronic pain, etc, and you will understand the why. What I find disturbing is people force me to keep going. If at any point I decide I don't want to continue dealing with all of this is where psychiatrist draw the line. This would be the time my competency is greatly judged. I'm able to work and function just like the pro-lifers do. I'm expected to keep going no matter the challenges I face daily. In reality, I challenge their competency to decide they know the magnitude and impact these situations have on people.

I've made a decision to never speak to a therapist/ psychiatrist forever. If I can't be honest and open then I don't see the value in using these services, but I've tried. I'm more than competent to say I'm ready to go and I simply can't say that to anyone. There is no chemical imbalance for my situation. So I'm just waiting to die. If I decide the time to attempt again has come, I will. I think people believe we have a bad day and snap and make an impulsive decision, that isn't true. We suffer for years in silence until we decide we can't do it anymore. At no time I believe I was ever incompetent to say I'm done.

Well said, and I'm more/less in the same boat. Since the last 7-8 years, I have never interacted with the mental health professionals for that very reason (among other reasons too) and I would say I'm just coping until the right time and circumstance comes, then I'll go.