Discussion what counts as a suicide attempt?

[Awesomefoid67]

i havent been able to find a good answer to this question really so i thought i'd ask, to you what counts as an attempt? what factors go in to determing whether it is/isnt one?

i'll get some examples from my life to like start the discussion:

when i was way younger a couple times i threatened to like grab a knife and kill myself with it or jump out my window and my parents had to physically stop me. idk if i actually wouldve gone through with it if i did but i still tried to get to them. does that count?

i've also ordered sn with the intention of using it to end my own life but didnt go through with it and lost the sn. does that count?

another example, a few weeks ago i half heartedly tried to tie a noose to try and hang myself with but i couldnt even tie it properly cus i was drunk. does that count?

and now a way more outlandish example, i got the covid vaccine and a booster because i was hoping that i would get some negative lethal side effect. does that count?

 

[madeincruddy]

It's hard to say. I'd definitely count your noose example as an attempt, since you had full intent to kill yourself in that moment. Trying to think of other examples, I'd consider travelling to a jump site as an attempt, even if you back down once you're there. Maybe it's the 'putting a plan into action' aspect. Like, if someone began their SN protocol but abandoned it partway through, I'd still consider that an attempt. I've had similar experiences to your first example where I was suicidal as a kid but had no information irt proper methodology so I tried to strangle myself with my hands/scarves, which obviously didn't do anything, IDK if I'd consider that an attempt lol, it's hard to take myself serious when I think about that

 

[zam_zam]

i havent been able to find a good answer to this question really so i thought i'd ask, to you what counts as an attempt? what factors go in to determing whether it is/isnt one?

i'll get some examples from my life to like start the discussion:

when i was way younger a couple times i threatened to like grab a knife and kill myself with it or jump out my window and my parents had to physically stop me. idk if i actually wouldve gone through with it if i did but i still tried to get to them. does that count?

i've also ordered sn with the intention of using it to end my own life but didnt go through with it and lost the sn. does that count?

another example, a few weeks ago i half heartedly tried to tie a noose to try and hang myself with but i couldnt even tie it properly cus i was drunk. does that count?

and now a way more outlandish example, i got the covid vaccine and a booster because i was hoping that i would get some negative lethal side effect. does that count?

You took the COVID vaccine goy, your CEO is really happy.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I've noticed a few posts similar to this. I suppose I'm curious about their motive. What is the person wanting to prove to themselves? That their situation is genuine and serious? I think contemplating suicide alone is pretty serious. When it evolves into researching and preparing/ enacting methods, it seems even more serious.

As for actual attempts though- I suppose I feel personally that it's probably a combination of actions and intent. I tend to think- in that moment- if the person is determined to try to die and begins to make steps towards doing that- it probably is an attempt.

I suppose to define it though- in my own mind- I think of it legally and compare it to homicide. Someone who buys and carries a knife around won't be convicted of attempted murder unless they do something threatening with it. They could even be gripping the handle in their pocket but- so long as they don't start waving it around with intent- it's still contemplating murder rather than attempting it.

From the descriptions you gave- the first one sounds the most like an actual attempt- if in that moment you felt committed to doing it but, your parents stopped you. I suppose setting up a noose is also edging towards attempting.

Buying stuff or thinking about suicide- I'm not really sure about so much. We can buy stuff or do potentially reckless things with the intent of hopefully dying but, it doesn't seem quite so intentioned as performing an action we feel confident will lead to death.

The covid jab sounds a little more like passive ideation. I imagine a lot of suicidal people contemplate their potential death multiple times a day. Maybe this pain I have will end up being cancer. Maybe it will kill me etc.

That's not to doubt how seriously you are contemplating it. It's a complicated question though- really. I have a friend who overdosed twice on OTC medication. Clearly, their intention was so strong, they were willing to potentially only maim themselves. But then- was it a logical choice? Especially the second attempt. When they already experienced the first had failed, did they truly believe the second would work? But then, they said outright- they were more in a desperate state and, not thinking logically.

I suppose I feel like there are various substages to attempting. A few members have mixed SN and sat staring at it before backing out. They no doubt began by being certain they would attempt that day. They likely fasted and took meds to prepare for it. That's obviously much closer to attempting than just buying SN. There again- it's not as near attempting as someone who actually drank it but then called emergency services or was interupted.

 

[zam_zam]

i havent been able to find a good answer to this question really so i thought i'd ask, to you what counts as an attempt? what factors go in to determing whether it is/isnt one?

i'll get some examples from my life to like start the discussion:

when i was way younger a couple times i threatened to like grab a knife and kill myself with it or jump out my window and my parents had to physically stop me. idk if i actually wouldve gone through with it if i did but i still tried to get to them. does that count?

i've also ordered sn with the intention of using it to end my own life but didnt go through with it and lost the sn. does that count?

another example, a few weeks ago i half heartedly tried to tie a noose to try and hang myself with but i couldnt even tie it properly cus i was drunk. does that count?

and now a way more outlandish example, i got the covid vaccine and a booster because i was hoping that i would get some negative lethal side effect. does that count?

I threatened my parents too one time. Rope feels like a really bad way to go so I would probably not try that shit.

 

[Awesomefoid67]

I've noticed a few posts similar to this. I suppose I'm curious about their motive. What is the person wanting to prove to themselves? That their situation is genuine and serious? I think contemplating suicide alone is pretty serious. When it evolves into researching and preparing/ enacting methods, it seems even more serious.

As for actual attempts though- I suppose I feel personally that it's probably a combination of actions and intent. I tend to think- in that moment- if the person is determined to try to die and begins to make steps towards doing that- it probably is an attempt.

I suppose to define it though- in my own mind- I think of it legally and compare it to homicide. Someone who buys and carries a knife around won't be convicted of attempted murder unless they do something threatening with it. They could even be gripping the handle in their pocket but- so long as they don't start waving it around with intent- it's still contemplating murder rather than attempting it.

From the descriptions you gave- the first one sounds the most like an actual attempt- if in that moment you felt committed to doing it but, your parents stopped you. I suppose setting up a noose is also edging towards attempting.

Buying stuff or thinking about suicide- I'm not really sure about so much. We can buy stuff or do potentially reckless things with the intent of hopefully dying but, it doesn't seem quite so intentioned as performing an action we feel confident will lead to death.

The covid jab sounds a little more like passive ideation. I imagine a lot of suicidal people contemplate their potential death multiple times a day. Maybe this pain I have will end up being cancer. Maybe it will kill me etc.

That's not to doubt how seriously you are contemplating it. It's a complicated question though- really. I have a friend who overdosed twice on OTC medication. Clearly, their intention was so strong, they were willing to potentially only maim themselves. But then- was it a logical choice? Especially the second attempt. When they already experienced the first had failed, did they truly believe the second would work? But then, they said outright- they were more in a desperate state and, not thinking logically.

I suppose I feel like there are various substages to attempting. A few members have mixed SN and sat staring at it before backing out. They no doubt began by being certain they would attempt that day. They likely fasted and took meds to prepare for it. That's obviously much closer to attempting than just buying SN. There again- it's not as near attempting as someone who actually drank it but then called emergency services or was interupted.

what would be the equivalent of if say the person with the knife was waving it about not with the intention of murder but like to intimidate or if they were going to murder someone but deep down they like knew they weren't actually going to or other things along those lines?

 

[Forever Sleep]

what would be the equivalent of if say the person with the knife was waving it about not with the intention of murder but like to intimidate or if they were going to murder someone but deep down they like knew they weren't actually going to or other things along those lines?

I imagine there are other offences they would be charged with.

As for the parallel with suicide attempts- when people (unadvisably) 'test' a small amount of SN maybe. Maybe do things on impulse. Not with serious conviction to die but more of an indifference either way.

Attempts that are intended as a 'cry for help' rather than a serious attempt maybe. So they will finally be taken seriously. There are sometimes posts here by people who want to make mock attempts so they will be noticed.

I suppose other practice runs too. I've checked out bridges in the past. I had no intention of jumping that day but, I wanted to take a look to see if there were prevention nets up. How high the barrier was etc. Also, just to get some sense of how it felt to stand there that high up.

Waving a knife around in public would be pretty stupid and reckless though so- I imagine it would be more like being in a frantic, impulsive state and attempting in a public place where it's very likely someone would intervene.

 

[Awesomefoid67]

I imagine there are other offences they would be charged with.

As for the parallel with suicide attempts- when people (unadvisably) 'test' a small amount of SN maybe. Maybe do things on impulse. Not with serious conviction to die but more of an indifference either way.

Attempts that are intended as a 'cry for help' rather than a serious attempt maybe. So they will finally be taken seriously. There are sometimes posts here by people who want to make mock attempts so they will be noticed.

I suppose other practice runs too. I've checked out bridges in the past. I had no intention of jumping that day but, I wanted to take a look to see if there were prevention nets up. How high the barrier was etc. Also, just to get some sense of how it felt to stand there that high up.

Waving a knife around in public would be pretty stupid and reckless though so- I imagine it would be more like being in a frantic, impulsive state and attempting in a public place where it's very likely someone would intervene.

so like would the indifferent ones and cry for help ones be considered "real"?

 

[Forever Sleep]

so like would the indifferent ones and cry for help ones be considered "real"?

It's hard to say really. This is only my own perspective too. The indifferent ones- maybe. If a person is so indifferent about living or dying, that pretty much suggests they are pretty open to die.

They could also be experiencing psychosis I suppose- if it's an impulsive attempt. I imagine in that moment though, they feel desperate enough to want to die.

As for a 'cry for help'. I suppose it depends on whether that was their intention or, what someone else labelled it. I think people are pretty cruel when they just label an attempt a 'cry for help' or 'need for attention'. I doubt it's always accurate too.

There again- I have read posts here by people who want to create mock suicides. Their goal clearly isn't to die but to hopefully make people take them seriously. So- that isn't so much an attempt as a kind of stunt.

With my friend's overdoses, it seemed more like it was an extreme act of self harm. We kind of both didn't understand one another's perspective. We both had ideation from a young age. I tend to feel like I would only attempt if I felt confident it would work. They felt like they could only attempt when they were in that desperate frame of mind and, it didn't seem so important that it probably wouldn't work.

That said, I think there's crossover too. People who have tested SN (again- very inadvisable to do) have said they were comfortable with dying as an outcome. I imagine that can happen too. Someone who is planning a mock suicide may still be comfortable with the possibility they may actually die- even though they are also hoping to survive and receive more support.

I've even heard some members say they feel like the only way they could muster the courage to do it if it was random. Say- have a bottle of pills to take one a day when only one pill will kill. I think some people feel like they need the 'Russian Roulette' scenario or even an impulsive attempt to get over their SI.

I suppose what matters is what the person themself is feeling though. They know more than anyone else where their head was at and what their intention was. I suspect we all make judgements towards each other but, only we can really know the truth.

 

[Awesomefoid67]

I imagine there are other offences they would be charged with.

As for the parallel with suicide attempts- when people (unadvisably) 'test' a small amount of SN maybe. Maybe do things on impulse. Not with serious conviction to die but more of an indifference either way.

Attempts that are intended as a 'cry for help' rather than a serious attempt maybe. So they will finally be taken seriously. There are sometimes posts here by people who want to make mock attempts so they will be noticed.

I suppose other practice runs too. I've checked out bridges in the past. I had no intention of jumping that day but, I wanted to take a look to see if there were prevention nets up. How high the barrier was etc. Also, just to get some sense of how it felt to stand there that high up.

Waving a knife around in public would be pretty stupid and reckless though so- I imagine it would be more like being in a frantic, impulsive state and attempting in a public place where it's very likely someone would intervene.

oh yeah bonus thing i just remembered, there was a time like before i even found this site where i wanted to ctb so i got out a box of codeine pills and just sat at a table staring at them for like 20 minutes before deciding i couldn't do it. would you say that counts as one?

 

[a-lien]

but why is this important to you ? For what.. ?

when a therapist asked me if I ever had a suicide attempt. I always said something like "no, my method is not for trying, it prefer something deadly . (not the exact words, it depends maybe, who asked, and if I'm ok to say that. and sometimes I don't want to share my method, but they will asked next, for sure, so it depends how i feel, when I feel close to death I would prefer to not say this.)
I always wanted to jump.
I also think, that most people suppose that it is an attempt... when you start doing something that could possibly kill you, and start self harm, that could ends with death? So I think, when they asked, they mean something like that. that it have to do with acting to end you life.
Edit: WITH the wish to die (you could also test some method, but maybe not an attempt. )

Would that be the definition ? I never said that i attempted suicide, becuse the final acting (that cause death) missed. and I think people mean this, when they asked ( only a few time asked into hospital ;) )
Than, what about jumping... so it could only be an attempt when you jump..and "boom" ? Yeah, there are some rare people that attempt suicide by jumping and survived. I only survive the "travel" lol xD

 

[Awesomefoid67]

but why is this important to you ? For what.. ?

when a therapist asked me if I ever had a suicide attempt. I always said something like "no, my method is not for trying, it prefer something deadly . (not the exact words, it depends maybe, who asked, and if I'm ok to say that. and sometimes I don't want to share my method, but they will asked next, for sure, so it depends how i feel, when I feel close to death I would prefer to not say this.)
I always wanted to jump.
I also think, that most people suppose that it is an attempt... when you start doing something that could possibly kill you, and start self harm, that could ends with death? So I think, when they asked, they mean something like that. that it have to do with acting to end you life.
Edit: WITH the wish to die (you could also test some method, but maybe not an attempt. )

Would that be the definition ? I never said that i attempted suicide, becuse the final acting (that cause death) missed. and I think people mean this, when they asked ( only a few time asked into hospital ;) )
Than, what about jumping... so it could only be an attempt when you jump..and "boom" ? Yeah, there are some rare people that attempt suicide by jumping and survived. I only survive the "travel" lol xD

it's not reslly "important" i just find the term kind of confusing

 

[itsgone2]

I'm not trying to be mean but no, even the codeine, I don't think these are attempts. I've done small gestures like this too.
But I agree with what @a-lien is saying, just why worry about it. Actual attempt or cry for help what does it matter anyway.

Everyone here is here because they're in a really bad place. You included. I'm so sorry. I wish none of us had seen this life.

 

[a-lien]

but it's more like start acting to die (but not preparing like buy sn or something.. )
thing the definition is start doing the final last act.. something that would lead to death. (maybe with an option it could not work,depends on method )
an attempt it something like "the process of killing (acting to kill) is started .

 

[Awesomefoid67]

but it's more like start acting to die (but not preparing like buy sn or something.. )
thing the definition is start doing the final last act.. something that would lead to death. (maybe with an option it could not work,depends on method )
an attempt it something like "the process of killing (acting to kill) is started .

this is kind of a philosophical question but what counts as starting it? is it say in the sn example when you start fasting and stuff? is it when you disolve the sn into water? is it when you drink it?

 

[Forever Sleep]

oh yeah bonus thing i just remembered, there was a time like before i even found this site where i wanted to ctb so i got out a box of codeine pills and just sat at a table staring at them for like 20 minutes before deciding i couldn't do it. would you say that counts as one?

Again, it sounds more like preparing for an attempt before backing out. I suppose there are various stages to attempting. Preparing, starting, being part way through.

Say you take one codeine tablet but then- stop. Would you call that an attempt? I'd be more inclined to say- they started but then realised they couldn't do it. One codeine tablet wouldn't even be an overdose so- I wouldn't really class that as an attempt. However- a sip of SN would be more like an attempt because- that could kill. If the person crushed the codeine into a powder, mixed it with water and took a sip- that would seem more like an attempt- because they wouldn't know how much they'd taken.

In both cases there though- it would have been an attempt ignoring the protocols I imagine. I imagine it's unadvisable to sip at any poison.

Someone once made the case of hanging. When in the process does it become an attempt? When they tie the noose? When they put their neck in? When they step off the stool? I suppose I view all but stepping off as starting the process. The intention to die may still absolutely be there but then, it's more like they backed out before actually attempting.

I think everyone will likely have a different idea though. Especially those who have attempted. For someone who prepared for SN say but then- didn't drink it. They may still want that acknowledged as an attempt- because I imagine the psychological battle to get that far must be huge.

There again- someone who did take it and were found and rushed off to hospital may take umbridge at that other case being considered an attempt. Because, they actually went through with it and suffered as a result.

Again though- why is it important? Is someone who started preparing for an attempt 100 times suffering more genuinely than someone who has never started an attempt?

 

[Awesomefoid67]

Again, it sounds more like preparing for an attempt before backing out. I suppose there are various stages to attempting. Preparing, starting, being part way through.

Say you take one codeine tablet but then- stop. Would you call that an attempt? I'd be more inclined to say- they started but then realised they couldn't do it. One codeine tablet wouldn't even be an overdose so- I wouldn't really class that as an attempt. However- a sip of SN would be more like an attempt because- that could kill. If the person crushed the codeine into a powder, mixed it with water and took a sip- that would seem more like an attempt- because they wouldn't know how much they'd taken.

In both cases there though- it would have been an attempt ignoring the protocols I imagine. I imagine it's unadvisable to sip at any poison.

Someone once made the case of hanging. When in the process does it become an attempt? When they tie the noose? When they put their neck in? When they step off the stool? I suppose I view all but stepping off as starting the process. The intention to die may still absolutely be there but then, it's more like they backed out before actually attempting.

I think everyone will likely have a different idea though. Especially those who have attempted. For someone who prepared for SN say but then- didn't drink it. They may still want that acknowledged as an attempt- because I imagine the psychological battle to get that far must be huge.

There again- someone who did take it and were found and rushed off to hospital may take umbridge at that other case being considered an attempt. Because, they actually went through with it and suffered as a result.

Again though- why is it important? Is someone who started preparing for an attempt 100 times suffering more genuinely than someone who has never started an attempt?

its not really important i just think what coes/doesnt class as an "attempt" is a weird thing so was looking to see others views on it

 

[meddle]

i would say that an action can be classified as a suicide attempt when you do something with an intent to die, but dont die. like someone stopped you, someone called an ambulance, you threw up, the rope broke, you had second thoughts and called an ambulance on yourself... but there has to be some action, that you hope will bring you death

so i think that, for example, just standing on a cliff and thinking about jumping is not an attempt. but its also really serious and fucked up, and the person who does this needs to get help