Venting We need to remember our minds can deceive us

[mythofsisyphus]

I want to be clear that I'm not saying this in any way to seem pro-life. I absolutely feel if somebody is deeply suffering and that is unlikely to change we should have a choice over life. I'm also talking from an atheistic perspective - I'm not at all disregarding other people's beliefs, but merely sharing my own.

When we're suffering, it can be so easy to see death as something good - something peaceful, quiet and tranquil. I get so easily caught up in these thoughts too, they're very alluring.

But it feel important to me as much as possible to not get caught up in this thinking, because rationally it just isn't true. Being dead isn't good - it isn't peaceful, quiet or tranquil. It's nothing. The absence of anything good or bad. It doesn't just take away our problems and leave us feeling enlightened and blessed. It takes away everything - no pain, no suffering but also no peace, no sanctuary, no calm. I'm not sure it's fully possible to even comprehend this - a state in which there is no ME to do any comprehending.

I just think that such a drastic action should not be made under thoughts and beliefs that in some ways are a delusion we've created out of pure desperation. Sure, death can remove suffering. But it's certainly not capable of adding anything good. I think it should only be seen as a means of taking away suffering if there's no hope for it get better, but nothing more. It shouldn't be seen as something beautiful or romanticised - because it's nothing. It takes away bad, but adds no good - a strong negative reinforcer, but completely powerless positive reinforcer.

In some ways I hate realising this because it takes away the sense of freedom I have when thinking about suicide, but also deep down I know that it's true. And in order to come to a fully considered and rationalised decision over what I need to do, I need to face the truth and not get caught up in the tricks my mind can so easily play on me.

 

[cait_sith]

What if I don't want anything "good"? I don't want to perceive "good" or "bad" anymore. I don't want anything else except nothing.

 

[lostintheloop]

I never believe in 'they're in a better place' because I don't believe in heaven or anything. No they're not somewhere better , they're not anywhere. Just simply cease to exist. But that idea is actually comforting to me. No reason to be afraid if completely gone and nothing to perceive .

 

[mythofsisyphus]

What if I don't want anything "good"? I don't want to perceive "good" or "bad" anymore. I don't want anything else except nothing.

I guess I'd wonder what it is about 'nothing' that allures you to it?

I know for me, when I feel like I want nothing, when I search deep enough I think I conflate nothing with peace. I don't truly want nothing because I can't even comprehend what nothing is. I just want out of my situation, I want a solution, I want peace again. I want nothing in the sense that my life is currently all suffering so having nothing sounds better than this, but then I realise I can't have nothing, because there won't be any 'I/me' around to do any having. It's like I think of it as I'll be getting rid of the burden of it all and I'll be left with nothing, which I agree sounds nice, but then I realise it's not like this at all... it's not that I'll have nothing, I simply won't exist. It's not that I'll be dropping the weight of everything I'm carrying, good and bad (which is really the only way I can comprehend nothingness), it's that I'll disappear, with no me to even perceive the nothingness.

But of course, that's just my over-thinking and I'm not at all suggesting that's the same for everyone. I'm sorry if my post came across as dismissive at all!

 

[Forever Sleep]

Fair points. I've wondered myself recently why I find the idea of death almost exciting. Something to look forward to.

For me, I think it's because it marks the end of having to try. I'm so sick of the slog that is life. There are only so many things you can do to try and improve your life. Life simply has so many caveats.

Ultimately, it's difficult to survive without certain things. Or, you may survive but life could well be even worse. We need the basics of food, water, shelter. That all costs money. If you don't qualify for benefits, that means work or relying on family (if you actually can.) Even if you enjoy your work- which I at least used to, you may still not earn enough from it. And, that's the bare basics. On top of that is the need to entertain ourselves to stop us getting bored, lonely, lethargic. That requires money quite often and time but, for so many- so much of their time is spent trying to make money.

To my mind, life just requires huge amounts of maintenance- in a nut shell. I think it can absolutely be a rational thought process to think- is all this effort I'm putting in paying off? Does it feel worth it? How much more effort will I need to put in to change things in my life? How likely is it that will yield results? Does the good outweigh the bad? Can I realistically get it to a point where it does?

Bearing in mind all of the above- that certain things in life- like sustaining ourselves, most of us have little choice over. Basically- can I make life work according to my standards? That seems like a rational thought process to me and I think that actually is what a lot of people must go through before they decide on suicide. I doubt suicide is the first thing that springs to their minds when they encounter their first major difficulty in life. I feel like when the answer to: 'Can I make my life work?' is 'no', that's when we consider suicide.

I suppose, there on after, passive ideation can become appealing as the 'easy' way out. As in- I don't want to face whatever it is in life, so- death seems more appealing. (Not to say suicide is actually easy of course.) Again though, why is that actually illogical? It isn't an issolated thought surely. It's not like- 'I don't fancy doing my tax return or going to that interview next week or waking up to another day of physical pain but hey- I have all these other amazing things in life to look forward to after that.' I'd say most suicidal people aren't looking forward to things. That's why they feel suicidal. They likely don't want to struggle through another day in order to have to keep struggling through yet more awful days. Suicide I suppose is so appealing because it simply marks the end of that process.

 

[Zaljko]

I guess I'd wonder what it is about 'nothing' that allures you to it?

Lack of pain, lack of everything bad in life.

It's the ultimate "escape" for situations that will never change (i.e. "chronic pain"; diseases like MS, ALS, Parkinson's disease; or even "treatment resistant mental illness".

Sometimes, you just get tired of being in pain - and all you want is to not be in pain - even if that means not existing at all.

 

[fallingtopieces]

As a fellow atheist and Camus reader, I understand what you're trying to say. When the lights go out, I no longer exist, and my suffering ends.

No one would argue with you that no one should act impulsively. But we cannot know the extent of another persons suffering and some have shared their stories here that will break your heart. There is no allure, no romanticizing, just an end to prolonged pain (mental and physical) and suffering.

 

[Cute_&_Loving]

Death is nothing. Death means not having to feel, think, deal with things. That's exactly what I want. And nothing can be freeing too. I can't speak for others but my mind definitely is not deceiving me. I've been thinking a lot about suicide, looking for every acceptable loophole. There's none.

 

[FuneralCry]

Death is peace to me personally. It's fine if others want to exist then that's up to them, but in my case I simply don't want to experience existence, I don't want to be conscious and aware, I only want permanent nothingness. Honestly it terrifies me how a human can exist for so long, I don't want to suffer for decades just to die in agony from old age. To me the best outcome possible is ceasing to exist, having no pain, no problems and no longer being burdened with this existence is all I see as desirable, for me it's something very good.

 

[mythofsisyphus]

I just want to apologise if my post came across as meaning this is how it is for everyone, I'm really sorry I didn't mean to come across as preachy or self entitled in my thinking. I'm just in so much pain, I so desperately want my old life back, and it hurts me so much when the only freedom I have is the thought of death, only to then realise this won't bring my old life back. I think my pain blinds me from fully understanding other's perspectives and I'm deeply sorry if I upset anyone. I just feel like a spoilt child... I want the pain and suffering to go away, but I want to keep the good things I had, I don't want to die and have nothing. It's not fair, none of it. I want to scream and cry and for everything to just be okay. I don't want to want to die. I don't want to be on this website. I just want the old days back, where I took so much for granted.

I'm sorry, I understand other people are in vastly different situations to me and I shouldn't make such sweeping and generalised statements. I'm really sorry.

 

[cait_sith]

I guess I'd wonder what it is about 'nothing' that allures you to it?

I know for me, when I feel like I want nothing, when I search deep enough I think I conflate nothing with peace. I don't truly want nothing because I can't even comprehend what nothing is. I just want out of my situation, I want a solution, I want peace again. I want nothing in the sense that my life is currently all suffering so having nothing sounds better than this, but then I realise I can't have nothing, because there won't be any 'I/me' around to do any having. It's like I think of it as I'll be getting rid of the burden of it all and I'll be left with nothing, which I agree sounds nice, but then I realise it's not like this at all... it's not that I'll have nothing, I simply won't exist. It's not that I'll be dropping the weight of everything I'm carrying, good and bad (which is really the only way I can comprehend nothingness), it's that I'll disappear, with no me to even perceive the nothingness.

But of course, that's just my over-thinking and I'm not at all suggesting that's the same for everyone. I'm sorry if my post came across as dismissive at all!

i don't need to comprehend nothingness in order to wanting it. i dont want anything nice or good or peaceful, i want my comprehension to end, it allures me that i dont have to think anymore when i enter nothingness, i dont want to have anything.
it seems in your view it will boil down to "we dont want to die, we just want a different life" which is true for me too, but for me being able to have a tolerable different life I'd need a different brain, getting it would be the same as entering nothingness as it would be so different it would kill every way of how i am perceiving things now, it would equal death. (dont worry about coming across badly, im not mad at the slightest, i understand your thinking)

 

[Beyond_Repair]

Are you a fan of Albert Camus? I just read the Myth of Sisyphus recently, and the takeaway from what I understand is that life is meaningless and full of suffering, but suicide isn't the answer just for this reason. The logical solution is to "revolt" by living life on your terms, although however possible that is or what that really means I'm not sure

I have also caught myself romanticizing death in my mind, but it reality you stop existing, period. There's no conscious "you" to feel any relief from your suffering. It's a difficult thing to wrap your head around for sure

I'm all for personal freedom and bodily autonomy, but I agree the sensible thing to do would be to exhaust all of your options and only commit if you have no reasonable hope for things getting better or being able to have a life worth living, which is subjective and means something different to everyone

 

[sugarb]

I want to be clear that I'm not saying this in any way to seem pro-life. I absolutely feel if somebody is deeply suffering and that is unlikely to change we should have a choice over life. I'm also talking from an atheistic perspective - I'm not at all disregarding other people's beliefs, but merely sharing my own.

When we're suffering, it can be so easy to see death as something good - something peaceful, quiet and tranquil. I get so easily caught up in these thoughts too, they're very alluring.

But it feel important to me as much as possible to not get caught up in this thinking, because rationally it just isn't true. Being dead isn't good - it isn't peaceful, quiet or tranquil. It's nothing. The absence of anything good or bad. It doesn't just take away our problems and leave us feeling enlightened and blessed. It takes away everything - no pain, no suffering but also no peace, no sanctuary, no calm. I'm not sure it's fully possible to even comprehend this - a state in which there is no ME to do any comprehending.

I just think that such a drastic action should not be made under thoughts and beliefs that in some ways are a delusion we've created out of pure desperation. Sure, death can remove suffering. But it's certainly not capable of adding anything good. I think it should only be seen as a means of taking away suffering if there's no hope for it get better, but nothing more. It shouldn't be seen as something beautiful or romanticised - because it's nothing. It takes away bad, but adds no good - a strong negative reinforcer, but completely powerless positive reinforcer.

In some ways I hate realising this because it takes away the sense of freedom I have when thinking about suicide, but also deep down I know that it's true. And in order to come to a fully considered and rationalised decision over what I need to do, I need to face the truth and not get caught up in the tricks my mind can so easily play on me.

This hinges on the assumption that A. there is nothing after death and B. death as you imagine it is unappealing.

There's zero evidence for the former. After death, we could very well be reincarnated as cognizant blocks of cheese that feel every swipe of the grater and suffer forevermore on sandwiches, tacos, and other cheesable foods. There's exactly as much evidence for that as there is for our consciousnesses dissipating into nothingness.

As for the latter- I personally don't care if I cease to exist instead of finding myself in my idealized afterlife. Both are just fine by me.

on a tangent- On occasion I get so far down the existentialist rabbit hole that all traditional reason and logic crumbles and the English language ceases to be capable of explaining my thought process. Is that thought process legitimate? If not- why? What's wrong with delusion? etc

I just want to apologise if my post came across as meaning this is how it is for everyone, I'm really sorry I didn't mean to come across as preachy or self entitled in my thinking. I'm just in so much pain, I so desperately want my old life back, and it hurts me so much when the only freedom I have is the thought of death, only to then realise this won't bring my old life back. I think my pain blinds me from fully understanding other's perspectives and I'm deeply sorry if I upset anyone. I just feel like a spoilt child... I want the pain and suffering to go away, but I want to keep the good things I had, I don't want to die and have nothing. It's not fair, none of it. I want to scream and cry and for everything to just be okay. I don't want to want to die. I don't want to be on this website. I just want the old days back, where I took so much for granted.

I'm sorry, I understand other people are in vastly different situations to me and I shouldn't make such sweeping and generalised statements. I'm really sorry.

Hey, don't apologize, you're all good hon.

You obviously meant well and I fully understand where you're coming from, especially the feeling of feeling stupid. Nobody expects you to be perfectly inoffensive and collected all the time on here (or shouldn't, at least)

Just remember, everything's going to be ok one way or another

 

[pyx]

There's zero evidence for the former. After death, we could very well be reincarnated as cognizant blocks of cheese that feel every swipe of the grater and suffer forevermore on sandwiches, tacos, and other cheesable foods. There's exactly as much evidence for that as there is for our consciousnesses dissipating into nothingness.

ah tbf i don't think these two are equal in terms of their truth-likeness. it's more plausible to believe that after our brain stops functioning that we cease to process sensory information, which is what eternal nothingness would entail. there isn't evidence for the fact that there is an after-life, so you can't outright reject the possibility of one, but unfortunately the two are not equivalent in terms of what is probably true

i think that death can be seen as revolt. our ideas of death are constrained to our present thoughts, none of which we likely carry past death. this is why arguments against suicide along the lines of "you would hurt your family" are so compelling. if it wasn't, then we would have no issues with death whatsoever. the fact is that the very act of dying is what gives importance to suicide, and not the outcome itself, though for many the outcome is the end-goal, the thing preferred over prolonged suffering

 

[Zaljko]

Are you a fan of Albert Camus? I just read the Myth of Sisyphus recently, and the takeaway from what I understand is that life is meaningless and full of suffering, but suicide isn't the answer just for this reason. The logical solution is to "revolt" by living life on your terms, although however possible that is or what that really means I'm not sure

I know you weren't talking to me - but I'll respond anyway because I love philosophy :)

I'm a hugeeeeeee fan of Schopenhauer - although my first awareness of philosophical positions that we would call the "pro-choice" variety was in college actually when I was reading Kant, whom everyone says is so anti-suicide. I remember finding one passage in his "lectures on ethics" - that said something like "if all you can do is treat yourself as a means to an end, then you have the moral obligation to die" - something like that anyway - and that began my journey into philosophy and how it relates to these kinds of issues.

For me, Schopenhauer's "On Suicide" and Hume's essay of the same title were foundational and really answer/put to rest all of the philosophical oppositions that had been ingrained in my mind regarding suicide and its "badness".

Hume's comment, "Do you imagine that I repine at providence or curse my creation, because I go out of life, and put a period to a being, which, were it to continue, would render me miserable?" is quite possible the most rational thing I have ever read - and something that reminds us in the midst of our own suffering and misery that, yes, being miserable isn't "normal", it's not "acceptable" and no amount of therapeutic mind games about "acceptance" will put an end to circumstances that we experience as intolerable.

 

[Beyond_Repair]

I know you weren't talking to me - but I'll respond anyway because I love philosophy :)

I'm a hugeeeeeee fan of Schopenhauer - although my first awareness of philosophical positions that we would call the "pro-choice" variety was in college actually when I was reading Kant, whom everyone says is so anti-suicide. I remember finding one passage in his "lectures on ethics" - that said something like "if all you can do is treat yourself as a means to an end, then you have the moral obligation to die" - something like that anyway - and that began my journey into philosophy and how it relates to these kinds of issues.

For me, Schopenhauer's "On Suicide" and Hume's essay of the same title were foundational and really answer/put to rest all of the philosophical oppositions that had been ingrained in my mind regarding suicide and its "badness".

Hume's comment, "Do you imagine that I repine at providence or curse my creation, because I go out of life, and put a period to a being, which, were it to continue, would render me miserable?" is quite possible the most rational thing I have ever read - and something that reminds us in the midst of our own suffering and misery that, yes, being miserable isn't "normal", it's not "acceptable" and no amount of therapeutic mind games about "acceptance" will put an end to circumstances that we experience as intolerable.

The Myth of Sisyphus was the first philosophy-heavy work I've read (aside from Meditations, if that counts) although I'm very interested in philosophy in a surface-level kind of way (not an expert or philosophy major by any means)

I've heard a lot about Schopenhauer and have been meaning to read something of his, but didn't know where to start. "On Suicide" seems fitting lol

 

[Zaljko]

The Myth of Sisyphus was the first philosophy-heavy work I've read (aside from Meditations, if that counts) although I'm very interested in philosophy in a surface-level kind of way (not an expert or philosophy major by any means)

I've heard a lot about Schopenhauer and have been meaning to read something of his, but didn't know where to start. "On Suicide" seems fitting lol

"On the Sufferings of the World" is really excellent just in general - and something to which I imagine we all can relate to a greater or lesser degree.