Thoughts on the pager & walkie-talkie explosion situation in Lebanon (& Syria) recently?

[Praying 4 a Miracle]

It's a tricky subject, but to me, planting little bombs in pagers and walkie talkies seems like a pretty evil thing to do. I do realize that the people in Hezbollah have done equally or even more evil acts to Israelis in recent years, but do two wrongs make a right? Seems to me that it will just cause things to escalate, back and forth, on and on, forever.

The people of Israel certainly do need to protect themselves from attacks, or their numbers will just dwindle to almost nothing, but attacking the supply chain of pagers and walkie-talkies? What do you think?

 

[noname223]

Compared to other things Israelis have made in this war it was a very precise attack and from what I have heard mostly (not solely) terrorists were affected. I would not call it a war crime.

 

[UnluckyBastard]

Not surprising. Israeli are hypocrites. Playing the victim while attacking people. Just defund Israel already. This is tiresome.

 

[Chinaski]

It's a tricky subject

It's not. It's bad.

 

[Thisisnotaname]

I have an opinion ! But....

 

[noname223]

It's not. It's bad.

I agree that it escalates the war massively and is very toxic for the region. But it was way more precise than the carpet bombing of women and children.

 

[Chinaski]

I agree that it escalates the war massively and is very toxic for the region. But it was way more precise than the carpet bombing of women and children.

i have no words at this point

 

[sinfonia]

I agree that it escalates the war massively and is very toxic for the region. But it was way more precise than the carpet bombing of women and children.

"It wasn't as immoral as the other immoral things they've done". Cool, maybe we shouldn't use fucking isrsel as the gold standard then?!

 

[noname223]

"It wasn't as immoral as the other immoral things they've done". Cool, maybe we shouldn't use fucking isrsel as the gold standard then?!

It is a fucking war against terrorists. What do you expect giving them sweets to appease them? There are rules for wars. Some acts can be considered war crimes, some acts cannot be considered war crimes. "Immoral" it is a fucking war. Netanjahu is clearly a war criminal and wants a massive escalation. I rather have the feeling such arguments takes the responsilbity of Hizbollah. Israel needs military superiority in the region if it shows weakness it would be immediately eradicated of the landscape. We can easily judge if we live in safe countries without the threat of getting all killed.

I don't think the full blame goes to Israel. But they are clearly the aggressor since 11 months.

 

[sinfonia]

It is a fucking war against terrorists. What do you expect giving them sweets to appease them? There are rules for wars. Some acts can be considered war crimes, some acts cannot be considered war crimes. "Immoral" it is a fucking war. Netanjahu is clearly a war criminal and wants a massive escalation. I rather have the feeling such arguments takes the responsilbity of Hizbollah. Israel needs military superiority in the region if it shows weakness it would be immediately eradicated of the landscape. We can easily judge if we live in safe countries without the threat of getting all killed.

I don't think the full blame goes to Israel. But they are clearly the aggressor since 11 months

Hisbollah isn't hamas though? And antisemitism isn't programmed into the dna of muslims; if israel stopped doing war crimes they might actually reconcile with their neighbours at some point. Are you saying its naive to think that way and eternal warfare is the only option?

 

[Chinaski]

It is a fucking war against terrorists.

It's ultimately the furtherance of a genocide and for all the corruption that exists in the world in the year of our lord two thousand and twenty four there is no corruption more dispiriting than the grown adult ditching the instinct towards barbarism they would have held as an infant in favour of "rational, nuanced" chin-stroking they feel they must hold to be taken seriously as a grown-up on the internet. You were bought so cheaply and will never have a single fucking thing to show for it.

 

[noname223]

Hisbollah isn't hamas though? And antisemitism isn't programmed into the dna of muslims; if israel stopped doing war crimes they might actually reconcile with their neighbours at some point. Are you saying its naive to think that way and eternal warfare is the only option

Hisbollah is also an antisemetic terrorist organization which aim it is to eradicte Israel. It has nothing to do with prejudices of antisemitism against Muslims in this case. "They would reconcile at one point" I think the situarion in the Middle East is completely fucked and both sides have done thing that will hinder peace. Just hoping for an end in good faith will not be possible. I think there are no honest actors on both sides.

I don't think eternal warfare is the right option and I think the pager explosions etc. will fuel the war but I don't comdemn them as totally evfil because I understand the strategical utility of this step. The bombing of Lebanon is a different story though.

Some will say these nuances don't matter considering the all out war. But I think such differentiations can help if someone wants to call you an antisemite. And it is more faire of course.

 

[sinfonia]

Hisbollah is also an antisemetic terrorist organization which aim it is to eradicte Israel. It has nothing to do with prejudices of antisemitism against Muslims in this case. "They would reconcile at one point" I think the situarion in the Middle East is completely fucked and both sides have done thing that will hinder peace. Just hoping for an end in good faith will not be possible. I think there are no honest actors on both sides.

I don't think eternal warfare is the right option and I think the pager explosions etc. will fuel the war but I don't comdemn them as totally evfil because I understand the strategical utility of this step. The bombing of Lebanon is a different story though.

Some will say these nuances don't matter considering the all out war. But I think such differentiations can help if someone wants to call you an antisemite. And it is more faire of course.

Sorry, I fail to see your point. You're aknowledging that israel is the agressor, yet somehow you still believe they have a god-given right to bomb and kill anylne they deem a terrorist, otherwise they will be wiped out? (In case you've forgotten, israel is doimg the wiping out right now - why don't they have the right to defend themselves?)

 

[Chinaski]

But I think such differentiations can help if someone wants to call you an antisemite. And it is more faire of course.

The idea that being anti-lsrael = antisemitism has been the biggest, fattest fucking lie of the century and nobody should be concerned with this at this stage.

 

[identity0]

Compared to other things Israelis have made in this war it was a very precise attack and from what I have heard mostly (not solely) terrorists were affected. I would not call it a war crime.

I saw videos of kids with their faces basically blown off from the attack so i dont know why you think that. As a large scale supply chain attack i cant imagine it being precise at all.

 

[noname223]

Personally, I would not exaggerate the evilness behind the pager and walkie talkie explosions Yes, ciivlians were killed. But as a mean in a war they seemed to be legimitate. The ratio of war combatant and civilian seems to be justified.
There are rules in wars and Israel stepped many lines but in this instance. It is a trap to call every single step of them a war crime. And many called these attacks evil war crimes.

From what I have read 12 civilians were killed in the pager explosions. I could not find number for the walkie talkie explosions. The total explosions killed 42 people and injured 3.500.

2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I am flip flopping myself on it. Lol. I think the most arguments againist Israel are better. I live in Germany and the media here protects Israel. Not only the media also the science articles I read. Even after laying all out my arguments in this thread both sides would hate me. I would be called "genocide noname223" and "antisemite noname223" at the same time. Lol.

 

[Chinaski]

Personally, I would not exaggerate the evilness behind the pager and walkie talkie explosions Yes, ciivlians were killed. But as a mean in a war they seemed to be legimitate. The ratio of war combatant and civilian seems to be justified.
. Even after laying all out my arguments in this thread both sides would hate me. I would be called "genocide noname223" and "antisemite noname223" at the same time. Lol.

UNICEF is reporting that 100 Lebanese children have been killed in the last 11 days, if you're going to hold back on condemnation of an aggressive apartheid state which perpetrates mass murder because you're bothered about some zionist headbanger calling you antisemitic on the internet that's up to you l suppose

 

[Dot]

it was absolute genius. I really hope Lebanon can get rid of the Muslims and become a functional and safe country once again.

Am nt xpert in regnl histry bt am confdnt tht thre hve bn Muslms in thse cntries fr v lng tme

U mght b refrrng 2 xtremism whch hs obvsly takn ovr sme plces bt tht = also happnng in othr cntries thru westrn religns etc

B4 Oct 7 slf ws neutrl on isrl bt = dffclt 2 spport a cntry whch = stll tryn2 wpe out all terrtry of Palstnns in th/ Wst Bnk & wh/ hve bn givng boat tours of th/ decimitd Gza Strp whle cryng victm

Tht = nt b-havr of a victm - tht = sciopathc b-havr

 

[daley]

It's a tricky subject, but to me, planting little bombs in pagers and walkie talkies seems like a pretty evil thing to do. I do realize that the people in Hezbollah have done equally or even more evil acts to Israelis in recent years, but do two wrongs make a right?

I am not sure I understand why you think this is a tricky subject. How is this different than just killing an enemy with a gun?
You could equally say, that when an enemy shoots at you with a gun, you shouldn't shoot back because killing is evil.

I suppose a lot of military actions are based on trickery and surprise. Why is this different?

Seems to me that it will just cause things to escalate, back and forth, on and on, forever.

Israel's north has been targeted by rockets for over a year, and 60,000 people in the north have been evacuated
for that period of time. There has been a lot of talk about negotiations by Americans and others to have this
stop which hasn't made much of a difference. I don't think Israel has many options here to get their people
back to their homes.

 

[Praying 4 a Miracle]

I am not sure I understand why you think this is a tricky subject. How is this different than just killing an enemy with a gun?
You could equally say, that when an enemy shoots at you with a gun, you shouldn't shoot back because killing is evil.

I suppose a lot of military actions are based on trickery and surprise. Why is this different?


Israel's north has been targeted by rockets for over a year, and 60,000 people in the north have been evacuated
for that period of time. There has been a lot of talk about negotiations by Americans and others to have this
stop which hasn't made much of a difference. I don't think Israel has many options here to get their people
back to their homes.

What I mean by "it's a tricky subject", is that it can often be tricky to discuss, simply because the entire issue (conflict) is so hotly debated. Also, a lot of what determines our opinion on this subject depends on how far we look back in human history. In other words, are we looking back 4,000 years, or just to recent events?

 

[daley]

What I mean by "it's a tricky subject", is that it can often be tricky to discuss, simply because the entire issue (conflict) is so hotly debated. Also, a lot of what determines our opinion on this subject depends on how far we look back in human history. In other words, are we looking back 4,000 years, or just to recent events?

Oh, I see what you mean. Your original question seemed to be of much limited scope though.

The stories each nation tells about itself are interesting and important, but are also a hindrance,
if you are unable to be flexible and adapt the stories to reduce suffering for all.
IMO, getting caught in stories of the far past wont get you anywhere.

This conflict has a lot of religion involved, so there is not much flexibility.
Sadly there is no end in sight.

 

[Deleted member 8119]

Am nt xpert in regnl histry bt am confdnt tht thre hve bn Muslms in thse cntries fr v lng tme

U mght b refrrng 2 xtremism whch hs obvsly takn ovr sme plces bt tht = also happnng in othr cntries thru westrn religns etc

B4 Oct 7 slf ws neutrl on isrl bt = dffclt 2 spport a cntry whch = stll tryn2 wpe out all terrtry of Palstnns in th/ Wst Bnk & wh/ hve bn givng boat tours of th/ decimitd Gza Strp whle cryng victm

Tht = nt b-havr of a victm - tht = sciopathc b-havr

True. But at this point I just want moderate people who oppose radicalism or that doesn't think their side should have total freedom for atrocities because the other one is considered worse.

Terrorists and political and religious extremists are at the very bottom of my morality list. I think Islam is super dangerous and should go away, but so is nationalism and this way is abysmal and won't work at all. Not to mention is dehumanizing.

 

[Chinaski]

True. But at this point I just want moderate people who oppose radicalism or that doesn't think their side should have total freedom for atrocities because the other one is considered worse.

Literally nobody is saying that though. Israel has been butchering civilians for *twelve months* and if there is a "moderate" position which prevents people from calling this as they see it that's up to them and their own conscience.

 

[Deleted member 8119]

Literally nobody is saying that though. Israel has been butchering civilians for *twelve months* and if there is a "moderate" position which prevents people from calling this as they see it that's up to them and their own conscience.

That's not what I meant since Israel is brutally harsh. And as I told straight sadistic.

But I've seen a lot of people unironically defending terrorist organizations as result or ignoring or justifying other crimes. And like that isn't okay.

Islamic nations can't be left unchecked either, but those boat tours and mass-bombing don't help at all.

 

[Dot]

True. But at this point I just want moderate people who oppose radicalism or that doesn't think their side should have total freedom for atrocities because the other one is considered worse.

Terrorists and political and religious extremists are at the very bottom of my morality list. I think Islam is super dangerous and should go away, but so is nationalism and this way is abysmal and won't work at all. Not to mention is dehumanizing.

Yh = an emotve issu fr bth sdes - slf persnl opinn = tht slf d/ nt agree wth killng inncnt ppl & takng hostges etc bt @ th/ sme tme Isrl hve cltured an Nvirnmnt whre smethng lke tht ww goin2 evntlly happn

= lke hw Englnd actns in Irelnd causd th/ inventn of th/ IRA

Sme ppl spportd th/ IRA
Othr ppl dd nt agree wth th/ violnce bt undrstd tht givn treatmnt of irelnd tht smethng lke tht wld happn

Sdly lke u sy xtremsm happns evrywhre

 

[Pessimist]

I can't really support it. I'm not interested in a regional war.