My only criticism for this website

[bluemistbec]

Hi guys, long time lurker and very occasional poster.

I just wanted to make a quick note about some thoughts I have, especially in light of the criticism this website receives.

I struggled immensely with my mental health for about 5 years, diagnosed with severe schizoaffective disorder. I am now in an amazing place mentally and strongly advocate for mental health. I loved having a space where I could express my thoughts without having a friend call the local hospital to have me admitted.

I tried to CTB twice via metformin overdose. Back then I didn't know about this website, but had a patient who killed themselves doing it. I researched it and it seemed pretty good. I took a mega overdose and miraculously survived. I even tried it again but still survived. The only damage I did was very minor kidney injury.

I later discovered this website and SN seemed brilliant. I ordered it and was planning to use it, but miraculously my mental health improved and I didn't.

Now here's my concern: if I had known about this website, I would have got the SN instead of metformin and there was a much higher likelihood I would have died. I see loads of patients doing things like panadol overdoses trying to kill themselves and I worry if they knew about SN they would be dead.

I totally understand having the right to choose just like we euthanise animals when they're sick. My mental health was at a point where recovery felt impossible and I had literally tried everything. But I did recover, and I am so glad I did.

I know that deleting this website won't stop people discovering SN and may do more harm than good by removing a support network. But I am a doctor so trying to stop people dying is literally my life. I have actively participated in the ED trying to save someone after they took SN.

This is a really complex topic and I am extremely passionate about mental health and would love to hear any thoughts.

 

[CantTurnBack]

People are here because they want to succeed in dying, and not to fail.

 

[Praestat_Mori]

This is indeed a very complex topic!

The fact is nobody knows whether it really gets better or not. In most cases it probably won't get better - then who takes responsibility if someone is worse after a "treatment"? Mental health is highly complex and not everyone can be cured especially not when external circumstances make people suicidal if those circumstances can't changed. Can those circumstances be changed?

There's the thing: Death is final and the relief of all suffering and pain we have to endure. Whether it's an accident or voluntary death is imo the same. Life on earth goes on!

In my case, external circumstances make me suicidal. However, things calmed down and I'm much less suicidal than I was 2 years ago and SS has a big share in this "recovery". Yet, the actual problem that makes me suicidal isn't solved in any way and no treatment no meds can ever solve this problem - the lottery jackpot can.

 

[cemeteryismyhome]

It's amazing to have a professional like yourself on this site, seriously. But when I read your post, it sounds to me like, "I'm concerned about this car dealership because people come here to try to buy cars, and they actually have financing and options and cars on the lot, so some people end up buying a car. Without all that, people would have saved so much money by not buying a car." I think the fault in the logic lies in the assumption that suicide is always the result of mental illness, combined with the assumption that mental illness is always treatable.

 

[Namelesa]

I would say the more important thing is to allow people to lessen their suffering in whatever way possible they want to which includes suicide so more easy access to learn about SN is needed to for that goal. Having people suffer from life is way worse than being dead as with that you can't suffer at all nor desire anything in non existence so living shouldn't be the priority at all but that the person doesn't suffer should the priority. You aren't saving people by stopping their suicides as they choose to do that and they could just continue to suffer with life. Let people lessen/end their suffering in whatever way they see fit.

 

[Forveleth]

We do not know what life holds for us. There may be recovery, there may be more suffering. The point of this site is to acknowledge, without bias, that suicide is no better or worse option than living, it is merely an option.

The problem with your point of view is that recovery is somehow superior. For some reason, the idea that if you had successfully killed yourself, and would therefore not be here recovered now, is viewed as a "worse" outcome is the flaw in your argument.

 

[Dot]

Sme1mght nd 2 trnsl8 agn

Thnk th/ issu tht u r raisng = tht stuatn = complx

Ppl serch fr sasu bcse thy wnt ctb infrmatn & th/ rsk of tht = tht thy wll ctb

U r askng fr thghts bt wht altern8tves wld u persnlly sggest

= gd tht u hve recovrd & hve nw slf-actualisd 2 b in plce whre u cn also hlp othr ppl & d/ gd in ur lfe - mny ppl recovr bcse of spport tht ste offrs whch u hve alrdy st8td tht u wre nt recivng in othr plces

Ppl cme t/ th/ ste bcse thy wnt freedm & autonmy whn th/ wrld gves thm restrictns & chaos & mkes thm fl trappd - u benefttd frm tht freedm bt nw r pointng out th/ rsks of tht freedm frm whch u benfittd

Th/ ste gves ppl info t/ ctb bt also kps mny ppl alve - keepng th/ ste up wll cntinu givng ppl info on hw t/ di bt closng th/ ste wld also lkely triggr mre attmpts thru desperatn & isolatn wth brutl methds & also wld stp prevntng ppl givng thmslves lng-trm damge thru othr harmfl methds

u mentn SN bt hw mny ppl r endng up on dialyss bcse thy drnk anti-frze or r w8tng fr livr trnsplnts bcse thy tk 60g of parcetml --- anothr prevs usr jumpd frm a brdge on2 a road & gve thmslves permnnt physcl disbltis fr whch thy l8tr ctb evn tho thr orignl reasns fr ctb hd gne awy bt thr orignl injries dstroyd thr lfe

1 pce of rsearch tht slf fnd ws tht SN poisnngs hd increasd bt fre-arm ctbs hd rduced - & remmbr thre = an anti-dte fr SN whn thre = nt 1 fr shootng urslf in th/ fce

Mny ppl critcse th/ ste xistng bt thy d/ nt brng answrs - 'gt hlp' = nt an answr bcse mny ppl r alrdy gettng hlp jst as u also wre whn u joind

Whle ppl kp fallng thru crcks in sciety & m.h systms or whn peacefl end-of lfe optns r nt availbl thn ppl wll kp endng up on stes lke SaSu as thy hve fr 30+yrs of th/ internt

Imo thre r nt n.e real answrs bcse thse cracks in sciety & spport wll stll xist & all thse ppl wll kp fallng thru thm -- SaSu = a symtpm of mch biggr issus whch wll nt jst g/ awy

 

[Forever Sleep]

I genuinely think it's great when people can and do recover. I also think the decision to suicide needs to be a thorough one, with all alternatives to live fully considered.

However- as an argument- what is the argument exactly? We might regret it if we die? Can we regret things after we die? It depends on your belief I suppose. Personally, I think I could have saved myself a lot of pain if I'd died decades ago! But then, as now, I didn't want other people to have that grief.

I think we could absolutely regret a failed attempt using over the counter medication so personally, I'm grateful for sites like this that lay out the potential risks for each method.

I guess it depends on the person really. I'm not really all that impulsive. My decision to die will always have been right though. Personally speaking, nothing has ever made my life worthwhile, despite being in the enviable position to be able to follow my (career) dreams.

It's different for everyone though, I suspect. Ironically, I think this site has actually helped me to keep living though. While I still feel like I have to.

 

[Dante_]

Sme1mght nd 2 trnsl8 agn

Thnk th/ issu tht u r raisng = tht stuatn = complx

Ppl serch fr sasu bcse thy wnt ctb infrmatn & th/ rsk of tht = tht thy wll ctb

U r askng fr thghts bt wht altern8tves wld u persnlly sggest

= gd tht u hve recovrd & hve nw slf-actualisd 2 b in plce whre u cn also hlp othr ppl & d/ gd in ur lfe - mny ppl recovr bcse of spport tht ste offrs whch u hve alrdy st8td tht u wre nt recivng in othr plces

Ppl cme t/ th/ ste bcse thy wnt freedm & autonmy whn th/ wrld gves thm restrictns & chaos & mkes thm fl trappd - u benefttd frm tht freedm bt nw r pointng out th/ rsks of tht freedm frm whch u benfittd

Th/ ste gves ppl info t/ ctb bt also kps mny ppl alve - keepng th/ ste up wll cntinu givng ppl info on hw t/ di bt closng th/ ste wld also lkely triggr mre attmpts thru desperatn & isolatn wth brutl methds & also wld stp prevntng ppl givng thmslves lng-trm damge thru othr harmfl methds

u mentn SN bt hw mny ppl r endng up on dialyss bcse thy drnk anti-frze or r w8tng fr livr trnsplnts bcse thy tk 60g of parcetml --- anothr prevs usr jumpd frm a brdge on2 a road & gve thmslves permnnt physcl disbltis fr whch thy l8tr ctb evn tho thr orignl reasns fr ctb hd gne awy bt thr orignl injries dstroyd thr lfe

1 pce of rsearch tht slf fnd ws tht SN poisnngs hd increasd bt fre-arm ctbs hd rduced - & remmbr thre = an anti-dte fr SN whn thre = nt 1 fr shootng urslf in th/ fce

Othr ppl in ED wll hve bn killd or wll hve ruind thr lves thru misadvnture bcse thy mde dmb decsns

Mny ppl critcse th/ ste xistng bt thy d/ nt brng answrs - 'gt hlp' = nt an answr bcse mny ppl r alrdy gettng hlp jst as u also wre whn u joind

Whle ppl kp fallng thru crcks in sciety & m.h systms or whn peacefl end-of lfe optns r nt availbl thn ppl wll kp endng up on stes lke SaSu as thy hve fr 30+yrs of th/ internt

Imo thre r nt n.e real answrs bcse thse cracks in sciety & spport wll stll xist & all thse ppl wll kp fallng thru thm -- SaSu = a symtpm of mch biggr issus whch wll nt jst g/ awy

Translation for Dot:

I think the issue that you're raising is that the situation is complex.

People search for sasu because they want certain types of information, and the risk of that is that they will act on it.

You're asking for thoughts, but what alternatives would you personally suggest?
It's good that you've recovered and have now self-actualised to be in a place where you can also help other people and do good in your life — many people recover because of the support that the site offers, which you've already said you weren't receiving in other places.

People come to the site because they want freedom and autonomy when the world gives them restrictions and chaos and makes them feel trapped — you benefited from that freedom, but now you're pointing out the risks of that same freedom from which you once benefited.

The site gives people information that can be used to act on, but it also keeps many people alive — keeping the site up will continue giving people information on how to die, but closing the site would also likely trigger more attempts out of desperation and isolation, often with brutal methods. It would also prevent people from avoiding long-term damage from other harmful methods.

You mention SN, but how many people are ending up on dialysis because they drank antifreeze, or are waiting for liver transplants because they took 60g of paracetamol?

Another previous user jumped from a bridge onto a road and gave themselves permanent physical disabilities — they later ended their life anyway even though their original reasons for doing so had gone away, because their injuries had destroyed their life.

One piece of research that the site itself found was that SN poisonings had increased, but firearm suicides had decreased — and remember, there's an antidote for SN, whereas there isn't one for shooting yourself in the face.

Other people in ED will have been killed or will have ruined their lives through misadventure because they made dumb decisions. Many people criticise the site for existing, but they don't bring answers — "get help" isn't an answer, because many people are already getting help, just as you were when you joined.

While people keep falling through the cracks in society and mental health systems, or when peaceful end-of-life options are not available, then people will keep ending up on sites like sasu, just as they have for 30+ years of the internet.

In my opinion, there aren't any real answers, because these cracks in society and support will still exist, and all these people will keep falling through them — sasu is a symptom of much bigger issues, and that won't just go away.

 

[bluemistbec]

Thanks for your thought so far guys, it's a difficult topic that I'm trying to understand myself a lot. It's hard for me to reconcile fighting so hard to stop people hurting themselves in the hospital, even getting as far as chemically or physically restraining them in severe circumstances when they come in in a mental health crisis. And I'm not just doing it for liability, I really try so hard to help and don't want anyone to die. But also I've been in a position potentially similar to what a lot of you feel, with active attempts to CTB and even being restrained briefly myself because I wanted so badly to die. Everyone always preaches that mental health issues are treatable, and I totally understand that for some people it's not. I think unfortunately as a symptom of things like depression recovery feels impossible. I did recover, and I am so glad I did. But maybe that won't stay this way forever

I'm not sure what the answer is. I came from a place of privilege, I live in a great country, I had the financial support to see any psychologist or psychiatrist I wanted and the connections to make it happen the next day. I had no real trauma and a loving network of family and friends. Yet I still felt untreatable and wanted to CTB. I understand that this isn't the case for a lot of people here, so maybe that's where the disconnect is. But I would hazard to guess I've had the exact same intensity of wanting to die that a lot of people here do.

I am only a young doctor, so I am only starting to understand when we 'give up' on someone eg stop doing CPR. I don't like to see people suffering and try to be generous with my pain meds (whilst still being safe). Where I live, voluntary assisted dying is uncommon and requires several doctors to sign off on it. I'm not sure if I could ever sign that paperwork. Yet I still took my 15 year old dog to the vet to get ethuanised when she got sick.

Sorry this got a bit off topic. Just trying to express my thoughts and understnad other's views.

Translation for Dot

I think the issue that you're raising is that the situation is complex.
People search for SaSu because they want certain types of information, and the risk of that is that they will act on it.
You're asking for thoughts, but what alternatives would you personally suggest?
It's good that you've recovered and have now self-actualised to be in a place where you can also help other people and do good in your life — many people recover because of the support that the site offers, which you've already said you weren't receiving in other places.

People come to the site because they want freedom and autonomy when the world gives them restrictions and chaos and makes them feel trapped — you benefited from that freedom, but now you're pointing out the risks of that same freedom from which you once benefited.

The site gives people information that can be used to act on, but it also keeps many people alive — keeping the site up will continue giving people information on how to die, but closing the site would also likely trigger more attempts out of desperation and isolation, often with brutal methods. It would also prevent people from avoiding long-term damage from other harmful methods.

You mention SN (sodium nitrite), but how many people are ending up on dialysis because they drank antifreeze, or are waiting for liver transplants because they took 60g of paracetamol? Another previous user jumped from a bridge onto a road and gave themselves permanent physical disabilities — they later ended their life anyway even though their original reasons for doing so had gone away, because their injuries had destroyed their life.
One piece of research that the site itself found was that SN poisonings had increased, but firearm suicides had decreased — and remember, there's an antidote for SN, whereas there isn't one for shooting yourself in the face.

Other people in the Emergency Department will have been killed or will have ruined their lives through misadventure because they made reckless decisions.

Many people criticise the site for existing, but they don't bring answers — "get help" isn't an answer, because many people are already getting help, just as you were when you joined.

While people keep falling through the cracks in society and mental health systems, or when peaceful end-of-life options are not available, then people will keep ending up on sites like Sasu, just as they have for 30+ years of the internet.

In my opinion, there aren't any real answers, because these cracks in society and support will still exist, and all these people will keep falling through them — Sanctioned Suicide is a symptom of much bigger issues, and that won't just go away.
Let me know if you'd like it rephrased or summarized further.

Thanks for translating. I definitely am not saying this site should be shut down.

Sometimes I feel uncomfortable with the guides we have up on how to CTB. I never tell my friends with mental health issues about this site because I'm worried they will kill themselves, even if it genuinely might help them. Maybe that's selfish of me, but I try really hard to hold hope for people.

You raise a really valid point about people who attempt to CTB and fail and end up with a terrible physical disability and in an even worse position. I remember watching a short doco with a guy in a wheelchair who tried to CTB by jumping off a bridge but survived. And even though he was paralysed from the waist down, he eventually recovered and was glad he didn't succeed. I recognise this isn't the case for everyone.

I guess my concern is that if people have a more lethal method available, even if there's less chance they'll end up with a terrible injury and die peacefully, there's less chance that they could one day eventually recover.

 

[seizmic_purple]

Strong points have already been made by users above. I would just like to add that, first, mental health issues are very diverse in terms of the amount of suffering one endures and their prospects of recovery, with large individual differences within each disorder. On top of that, there are systematic and social factors such as support of others (or lack thereof) or the availability of treatment, which is usually underpinned by one's socioeconomic status or the situation in their country (e.g., how the health system works). All of these come into play when we consider or weigh possible outcomes. Most importantly, all of them taken together make each story complex, unique, and relatively difficult to predict, meaning that it is not optimal, to my mind, to stick to the logic of ''had there never been SaSu'' just because it provides information about methods that allow one to (and respect one's right to) have more control over their lives or its end. Let's not forget that SaSu also has a large, resourceful Recovery thread, and people connect to each other here--that means not everyone who comes here will CTB.
I am very glad you have recovered, and I sincerely wish everyone here can recover and live happy lives, but I think it is a better and more fair stance to respect individual choice, autonomy, and dignity in the light of the described uncertainty alongside realistic chances of full recovery (i.e., severe physical health issues are something many people struggle with here, among other things, that can dictatate these chances).

 

[Apathy79]

In your case, finding this website later rather than earlier worked out. I don't think that is uncommon. By far the biggest, and most reasonable, criticism of the site is that young people come here with some fairly common teenage issue, and end up killing themselves, where in most cases if they never found the site they would have recovered. Most people (~90% in the biggest studies, I'd bet my house it is much higher for teenagers in isolation) who attempt and fail, don't end up dying by suicide, which speaks to you not being an outlier, and was the basis for Harvard's whole "means matter" attempt to remove high success rate options, reasoning along similar lines to what you've outlined.

My view of that in relation to SS is that we don't want people under 18 here under any circumstances if we can help it. Because most of them who ctb would have recovered but for finding the site. That's an issue with the site, and while some steps are taken consistently to mitigate against it, it nevertheless persists, and drives virtually all criticism that comes our way.

But that issue aside, we have to accept that adults can make their own decisions, and shouldn't be denied access to information that will help them. SN might be chosen over less reliable methods like the ODs you mention, but it also might be taken over more reliable methods like gunshots, and regardless of the choice, in my view it is best for adults to have access to all the information they desire about all of them in order to make the most informed choice for them.

You have a kind heart that is exceptionally suited to the role you're in, and I hope you continue to save lives this way, including of people who attempt suicide. I don't think it follows that those adults should be deprived of the methods discussed here.

 

[Dot]

Thanks for your thought so far guys, it's a difficult topic that I'm trying to understand myself a lot. It's hard for me to reconcile fighting so hard to stop people hurting themselves in the hospital, even getting as far as chemically or physically restraining them in severe circumstances when they come in in a mental health crisis. And I'm not just doing it for liability, I really try so hard to help and don't want anyone to die. But also I've been in a position potentially similar to what a lot of you feel, with active attempts to CTB and even being restrained briefly myself because I wanted so badly to die. Everyone always preaches that mental health issues are treatable, and I totally understand that for some people it's not. I think unfortunately as a symptom of things like depression recovery feels impossible. I did recover, and I am so glad I did. But maybe that won't stay this way forever

I'm not sure what the answer is. I came from a place of privilege, I live in a great country, I had the financial support to see any psychologist or psychiatrist I wanted and the connections to make it happen the next day. I had no real trauma and a loving network of family and friends. Yet I still felt untreatable and wanted to CTB. I understand that this isn't the case for a lot of people here, so maybe that's where the disconnect is. But I would hazard to guess I've had the exact same intensity of wanting to die that a lot of people here do.

I am only a young doctor, so I am only starting to understand when we 'give up' on someone eg stop doing CPR. I don't like to see people suffering and try to be generous with my pain meds (whilst still being safe). Where I live, voluntary assisted dying is uncommon and requires several doctors to sign off on it. I'm not sure if I could ever sign that paperwork. Yet I still took my 15 year old dog to the vet to get ethuanised when she got sick.

Sorry this got a bit off topic. Just trying to express my thoughts and understnad other's views.

Thanks for translating. I definitely am not saying this site should be shut down.

Sometimes I feel uncomfortable with the guides we have up on how to CTB. I never tell my friends with mental health issues about this site because I'm worried they will kill themselves, even if it genuinely might help them. Maybe that's selfish of me, but I try really hard to hold hope for people.

You raise a really valid point about people who attempt to CTB and fail and end up with a terrible physical disability and in an even worse position. I remember watching a short doco with a guy in a wheelchair who tried to CTB by jumping off a bridge but survived. And even though he was paralysed from the waist down, he eventually recovered and was glad he didn't succeed. I recognise this isn't the case for everyone.

I guess my concern is that if people have a more lethal method available, even if there's less chance they'll end up with a terrible injury and die peacefully, there's less chance that they could one day eventually recover.

Thre = defntly a conflct & slf undrstnd

B4 endng up on SaSu slf ws m.h advoc8 & passn8 abt recovry & wantd 2 wrk as recovry workr in sme wy

Slf persnlly calld EMS on sme1 wh/ postd on FB tht thy wre plannng t/ ctb

Slf ws also a volnteer fr a crsis lne & wld wrk nght-shfts thre in betwn slf dy-jb & hd jst bn acceptd t/ wtk in psych Nvirnmnts b4 own epsde drastclly worsend

Snce b-ing on ste whle slf hve dscussd ctb methds wth ppl - mstly whle ws lernng abt thm also -- slf wld also ask permssn t/ snd dffrnt ideas fr recvry & therpis t/ ppl in d.ms & Dscrd servrs & obvsly hve dne th/ wrk on bettrng recvry mterials fr th/ ste -- If ppl r goin2 end up in 'lst-rsort' plce lke SaSu lookng fr suicde methds thn = wld b gd fr as mny dffrnt recvry & spport rsourcs 2 b availbl as pssble in cse thre r thngs whch ppl hve nt thght of - espclly whn mainstrm psych oftn jst gves ppl SSRIs & CBT & ppl cnnt affrd n.ethng bettr

If slf sw sme1 in publc wh/ ws abt t/ ctb slf wld stll cll EMS bcse in doin thse thngs in publc thy hve brght slf in2 thr ctb whch slf ws nt consentng 2 & am nt goin2 jst allw sme1 t/ di whn thy cld b savd & ptentlly recovr - s/ in eys of mny ppl on ste slf wld defntly b a 'pro-lifr'

Hwevr slf am also nw in positn of b-ing sme1 wh/ nds a ste lke SaSu - slf hve cme t/ th/ ste needng th/ ste philsphy & slf respct th/ trms undr whch slf joind

Thre = & wll alwys b a plce fr doctrs & interventns bt imo givn th/ st8 of sciety & socl systms thre wll alwys b cmmuntis lke SaSu whre anonymty & privcy & compassn & respct fr informd persnl choic r givn

SaSu = nt perfct bt whn thre r nt sch optns offerd b/ sciety thn thre wll alwys b unregultd & rgh-arnd-edgs plces whch try 2 fll th/ void - jst as thre wre bck-ally abortnsts in th/ pst

Persnlly slf prefr whn ste ws mre of a smallr undr-grnd plce whch ppl wld only fnd organclly whn thy wre rlly specfclly lookng rathr thn smewhre tht = nw advertisd all ovr mdia & ppl wll shrg thr shouldrs & join mre flippntly thnkng 'tht lks cl' bt guss tht = nt an optn n.emre

 

[Dante_]

Thre = defntly a conflct & slf undrstnd

B4 endng up on SaSu slf ws m.h advoc8 & passn8 abt recovry & wantd 2 wrk as recovry workr in sme wy

Slf persnlly calld EMS on sme1 wh/ postd on FB tht thy wre plannng t/ ctb

Slf ws also a volnteer fr a crsis lne & wld wrk nght-shfts thre in betwn slf dy-jb & hd jst bn acceptd t/ wtk in psych Nvirnmnts b4 own epsde drastclly worsend

Snce b-ing on ste whle slf hve dscussd ctb methds wth ppl - mstly whle ws lernng abt thm also -- slf wld also ask permssn t/ snd dffrnt ideas fr recvry & therpis t/ ppl in d.ms & Dscrd servrs & obvsly hve dne th/ wrk on bettrng recvry mterials fr th/ ste -- If ppl r goin2 end up in 'lst-rsort' plce lke SaSu lookng fr suicde methds thn = wld b gd fr as mny dffrnt recvry & spport rsourcs 2 b availbl as pssble in cse thre r thngs whch ppl hve nt thght of - espclly whn mainstrm psych oftn jst gves ppl SSRIs & CBT & ppl cnnt affrd n.ethng bettr

If slf sw sme1 in publc wh/ ws abt t/ ctb slf wld stll cll EMS bcse in doin thse thngs in publc thy hve brght slf in2 thr ctb whch slf ws nt consentng 2 & am nt goin2 jst allw sme1 t/ di whn thy cld b savd & ptentlly recovr - s/ in eys of mny ppl on ste slf wld defntly b a 'pro-lifr'

Hwevr slf am also nw in positn of b-ing sme1 wh/ nds a ste lke SaSu - slf hve cme t/ th/ ste needng th/ ste philsphy & slf respct th/ trms undr whch slf joind

Thre = & wll alwys b a plce fr doctrs & interventns bt imo givn th/ st8 of sciety & socl systms thre wll alwys b cmmuntis lke SaSu whre anonymty & privcy & compassn & respct fr informd persnl choic r givn

SaSu = nt perfct bt whn thre r nt sch optns offerd b/ sciety thn thre wll alwys b unregultd & rgh-arnd-edgs plces whch try 2 fll th/ void - jst as thre wre bck-ally abortnsts in th/ pst

Persnlly slf prefr whn ste ws mre of a smallr undr-grnd plce whch ppl wld only fnd organclly whn thy wre rlly specfclly lookng rathr thn smewhre tht = nw advertisd all ovr mdia & ppl wll shrg thr shouldrs & join mre flippntly thnkng 'tht lks cl' bt guss tht = nt an optn n.emre

Translation for Dot

There is definitely a conflict which I understand.
Before ending up on sasu, I was a mental health advocate and passionate about recovery, and I wanted to work as a recovery worker in some capacity.

I personally called EMS on someone who had posted on Facebook that they were planning to end their life.

I was also a volunteer for a crisis line, working night shifts there in between my day job, and I had just been accepted to work in psychiatric environments before my own situation drastically worsened.
Since being on the site, although I've discussed suicide methods with people — mostly while I was learning about them myself — I've also asked for permission to send alternative ideas for recovery and therapies to people in DMs and Discord servers.

I've obviously worked on improving recovery materials for the site too. If people are going to end up in a 'last-resort' place like sasu looking for suicide methods, then it would be good for as many different recovery and support resources to be available as possible, just in case there are things people haven't thought of — especially when mainstream psychiatry often just gives people SSRIs and CBT, and many can't afford anything better.

If I saw someone in public who was about to end their life, I would still call EMS — because by doing those things in public, they've brought me into their act of suicide without my consent, and I'm not just going to stand by and let someone die if they could be saved and potentially recover. So, in the eyes of many people on the site, I would definitely be considered a 'pro-lifer.'
However, I'm also now in the position of being someone who needs a site like sasu — I came to the site needing what it stands for, and I respect the terms under which I joined.

There is — and always will be — a place for doctors and interventions. But in my opinion, given the state of society and social systems, there will always be communities like sasu, where anonymity, privacy, compassion, and respect for informed personal choice are upheld.
Sasu isn't perfect, but when society doesn't offer those kinds of options, there will always be unregulated and rough-around-the-edges spaces that try to fill that void — just like there were back-alley abortionists in the past.

Personally, I preferred when the site was more of a smaller, underground place that people would only find organically when they were really specifically looking for it, rather than something that's now advertised all over the media, where people shrug their shoulders and join more flippantly, thinking "that looks cool" — but I guess that's not an option anymore

 

[Dot]

You raise a really valid point about people who attempt to CTB and fail and end up with a terrible physical disability and in an even worse position. I remember watching a short doco with a guy in a wheelchair who tried to CTB by jumping off a bridge but survived. And even though he was paralysed from the waist down, he eventually recovered and was glad he didn't succeed. I recognise this isn't the case for everyone.

I guess my concern is that if people have a more lethal method available, even if there's less chance they'll end up with a terrible injury and die peacefully, there's less chance that they could one day eventually recover.

Tht = certnly tru - bt thre r also xampls of fr instnce sme1 slittng hs wfe thrt aftr sh/ rpeatdly beggd hm t/ end hr lfe bcse hr illnss hd lft hr wth 0 qualty of lfe & h/ riskd prisn t/ end hr pain

Man slits wife's throat in 'act of love,' calls for assisted dying law

A 73-year-old man, Graham Mansfield, who slit his wife's throat at their house in Trafford in March 2021, has been cleared of murder charges.

www.ibtimes.co.uk

A persn frm UK wth smethng lke MS ws beggng fr euthnsia fr yrs bt bcse ws nt legl thy hd 2 ask thr famly t/ remve thr oxygn tbe & chke t/ deth


Th/ argmnts agnst th/ ste r oftn agnst choosng betwn wh/ shld hve accss t/ info on peacefl or smi-peacfl methds & ppl wh/ shld nt

= senstve dscussn whch am nt sre ppl wll evr agree on bcse thre wll alwys b rsks or xceptns on bth sdes - & sch = th/ dlimma

 

[Dante_]

Thanks for your thought so far guys, it's a difficult topic that I'm trying to understand myself a lot. It's hard for me to reconcile fighting so hard to stop people hurting themselves in the hospital, even getting as far as chemically or physically restraining them in severe circumstances when they come in in a mental health crisis. And I'm not just doing it for liability, I really try so hard to help and don't want anyone to die. But also I've been in a position potentially similar to what a lot of you feel, with active attempts to CTB and even being restrained briefly myself because I wanted so badly to die. Everyone always preaches that mental health issues are treatable, and I totally understand that for some people it's not. I think unfortunately as a symptom of things like depression recovery feels impossible. I did recover, and I am so glad I did. But maybe that won't stay this way forever

I'm not sure what the answer is. I came from a place of privilege, I live in a great country, I had the financial support to see any psychologist or psychiatrist I wanted and the connections to make it happen the next day. I had no real trauma and a loving network of family and friends. Yet I still felt untreatable and wanted to CTB. I understand that this isn't the case for a lot of people here, so maybe that's where the disconnect is. But I would hazard to guess I've had the exact same intensity of wanting to die that a lot of people here do.

I am only a young doctor, so I am only starting to understand when we 'give up' on someone eg stop doing CPR. I don't like to see people suffering and try to be generous with my pain meds (whilst still being safe). Where I live, voluntary assisted dying is uncommon and requires several doctors to sign off on it. I'm not sure if I could ever sign that paperwork. Yet I still took my 15 year old dog to the vet to get ethuanised when she got sick.

Sorry this got a bit off topic. Just trying to express my thoughts and understnad other's views.

Translation for Dot

That's certainly true — but there are also examples, for instance, of someone slitting his wife's throat after she repeatedly begged him to end her life because her illness had left her with zero quality of life, and he risked prison to end her pain.

Man slits wife's throat in 'act of love,' calls for assisted dying law

A 73-year-old man, Graham Mansfield, who slit his wife's throat at their house in Trafford in March 2021, has been cleared of murder charges.

www.ibtimes.co.uk

A person from the UK with something like MS had been begging for euthanasia for years, but because it wasn't legal, they had to ask their family to remove their oxygen tube and choke to death. The arguments against the site are often about who should or shouldn't have access to information on peaceful or semi-peaceful methods — and having to choose between those who should be allowed access and those who shouldn't. It's a sensitive discussion, and I'm not sure people will ever truly agree on it, because there will always be risks or exceptions on both sides — and that's the dilemma.

 

[cemeteryismyhome]

Even if a person recovers, they end up dead after awhile anyway. Everyone dies sooner or later. And thank goodness for that.

 

[karakoltriste]

I don't understand this kind of comments in a pro-choice forum. What did you expect?

 

[finallydone]

1/ a doctor with schizoaffective disorder, well damn i never suspected that was even possible, good job doing that ig
2/ i think that most people have had their "impossible" recovery stories but i think that doesn't make it any better since there is a high chance of relapse and a new journey towards recovery which will at one point turn into a very dragged out war against yourself, and that my friend isn't a very effective way of living

 

[Dot]

There are quite a few accessible highly lethal methods though.

I question how many of those overdoses are cries for help where the person knows they're not going to die but will get attention. If someone is crying for help would they use SN if they knew of its lethality? Like I feel if someone really wanted to die they wouldn't ingest a bunch of paracetamol they would jump off a building or something like that.



This is a very good point.

Someone who's dead won't know what they could have missed out on because they don't exist. Is death the worse outcome? Someone who is dead is guaranteed never to experience any distress etc. Recovery isn't guaranteed and and as long as someone's alive they are capable of suffering.

Imo tht = jst rsk agn tho

Majrty of ppl rsk havng lfe whre bd thngs cn happn bcse thy wnt th/ gd tmes & thy cnsidr lfe wrthy of tht rsk

Othr ppl wn2 ctb whn thngs mght gt bettr bcse thy d/ nt accpt rsk tht thy wll nt - or thy wn2 avd pain al2gthr

Thn obv thre r ppl fr whm thngs jst wll eithr nt gt bettr or thy r jst dne tryng

If thre r ppl wh/ wnt tht hpe of recvry or tht thngs cn gt bettr thn thnk ppl shld b allowd 2 hld on2 tht jst as othr ppl wnt autonmy t/ end thr lfe

 

[cowboypants]

I am happy you made it out. It's a really deep topic. If it was not for this site, it would be some other site.

If you look at it this way, information is now democratized, anyone can access info and that's where the problem begins. One would wonder why children, vulnerable people end up on these sites. One has to look at what pushed them etc., parents are quick to blame the site partly they are right, but what made them choose this? Are they guilty themselves, trying to find a scapegoat?

People get emotional than think through a rational lens. Children have been ending their lives, so does adults, only the methods are evolving. If you want a long-term plan you want to support those vulnerable people. Make them feel like they belong in society.

And if legal euthanasia was an option, most wouldn't have to discuss such things. This place still also acts as a support group for people with SI. Most people don't have access to such places in real life.

A bigger question. Are we even free to choose in this world or just run the cog till we eventually die?

If mental health workers and doctors can understand this they might make an impact in their community and maybe foster a bigger change, isn't that all what we want?

 

[RainAndSadness]

I totally understand having the right to choose just like we euthanise animals when they're sick. My mental health was at a point where recovery felt impossible and I had literally tried everything. But I did recover, and I am so glad I did.

I know that deleting this website won't stop people discovering SN and may do more harm than good by removing a support network. But I am a doctor so trying to stop people dying is literally my life. I have actively participated in the ED trying to save someone after they took SN.

This is a really complex topic and I am extremely passionate about mental health and would love to hear any thoughts.

Stopping people from dying is a good thing. Stopping people from dying without their consent or despite lack of consent is a bad thing. It's really not that difficult and this subject isn't really in any way controversial if you engage with ethical issues like that regularly. Like I hope I don't need to explain to you why "saving" someone against their will is a bad thing, but in very short terms: it increases suffering and it's a violation of their autonomy, right. If someone takes SN, that's a decision that's ususally made for a reason. Maybe you should focus on these reasons instead of trying to infringe on people's right to die. If people don't want to die because they live a good life, you won't have to save them in the first place - crazy, right? So stop the treatment of the symptoms as the solution and start advocating for real societal change. As a doctor you should know what's on people's mind when they commit suicide and it's ususally some kind of systemic issue we could takle as a society if we were empathic and compassionate - but that would mean we'd have to crack down on the capitalist dystopia that we live in right now, that's not something a lot of people want to do. In many countries we actively pass policies and legislation that makes the life of people worse, by cutting down on goverment support (and spending) for marginalized and struggling people. Improving our society and making people actually want to live is expensive and people quite obviously don't put their money where their mouth is. It's that simple. Nobody cares.

I'm glad you improved and recovered from your own struggles, as someone who has lived for quite a while now on this planet, I can assure you not everyone has the capacity (and privilege) to do that. There are certain situations and mental health conditions that make recovery very difficult to impossible. I hate to break it to you but you can not assume that everyone can improve just because you did. Just pointing that out because I'm not quite sure if you bringing up your own situation was supposed to be an argument against this website and the right to die in general.

 

[starboy2k]

Your post has a lot of words but it aint saying anything.

 

[22yearsbroken]

I think making any assumption on why and for what reasons why myself and otbers maybe be either visiting or are members of this site... is really non of your busniness at all .. everyone here has a reason... so do not judge or stigmatise or think you you understand any individuals that talk and discuss there life withing these pages...

 

[Linda]

Hi guys, long time lurker and very occasional poster.

I just wanted to make a quick note about some thoughts I have, especially in light of the criticism this website receives.

I struggled immensely with my mental health for about 5 years, diagnosed with severe schizoaffective disorder. I am now in an amazing place mentally and strongly advocate for mental health. I loved having a space where I could express my thoughts without having a friend call the local hospital to have me admitted.

I tried to CTB twice via metformin overdose. Back then I didn't know about this website, but had a patient who killed themselves doing it. I researched it and it seemed pretty good. I took a mega overdose and miraculously survived. I even tried it again but still survived. The only damage I did was very minor kidney injury.

I later discovered this website and SN seemed brilliant. I ordered it and was planning to use it, but miraculously my mental health improved and I didn't.

Now here's my concern: if I had known about this website, I would have got the SN instead of metformin and there was a much higher likelihood I would have died. I see loads of patients doing things like panadol overdoses trying to kill themselves and I worry if they knew about SN they would be dead.

I totally understand having the right to choose just like we euthanise animals when they're sick. My mental health was at a point where recovery felt impossible and I had literally tried everything. But I did recover, and I am so glad I did.

I know that deleting this website won't stop people discovering SN and may do more harm than good by removing a support network. But I am a doctor so trying to stop people dying is literally my life. I have actively participated in the ED trying to save someone after they took SN.

This is a really complex topic and I am extremely passionate about mental health and would love to hear any thoughts.

You were lucky in that your attempts to ctb didn't do you much harm. But a failed attempt can sometimes mess someone up for life. That's why I think it is important to provide accurate information here.

My own view is that we should provide as much support as possible, so that people are less likely to attempt. If it is clear that their problems are minor, or likely to be only temporary, we should discourage them - strongly, if necessary - from attempting.

At the other end of the spectrum, some people have been struggling for years with serious problems that are making their life intolerable. If they decide that catching the bus is better than continuing to live, I will respect their decision. I also feel that someone in that situation needs access to reliable information about how to do it, or they may end up making their life even worse.

I think your concern is mainly with people in between those two groups, people who are struggling with fairly serious problems but who may eventually be able to find a way forward in life. (I said may be able to find a way forward. We can't predict the future with certainty. It's the uncertainty about whether they will or will not be able that makes this a difficult topic.) I don't think there are any simple answers here. I try to provide what support I can to such people, but I recognise that, ultimately, it is for the person concerned to decide what to do.

... trying to stop people dying is literally my life. Then it is guaranteed that your life is going to be a failure. Every one of us will die one day. Also, some people actually want to die, so your aim in life may actually harm them, and then you are violating the basic principle of First, do no harm. Perhaps you should consider, a little more carefully, what your aims really should be as a doctor. Perhaps it should be to make people's lives better than they would be if you did not intervene. That's not quite the same thing as trying to stop people dying in all circumstances.

 

[SchizoGymnast]

I'm glad you are here. It takes a certain amount of courage and outside-the-box thinking for a conventional medical/mental/human services professional to want to come here and engage in discussion.

With that said, I strongly suggest you focus your energy on finding out why people feel recovery is impossible for them, and address that. If we address that, so many people wouldn't feel drawn to suicide to begin with. I can think of a few. Lack of harm reduction, lack of social connection, poverty, cultural influences, etc.

Also, I personally use this site as a form of harm reduction. As someone who has been suicidal pretty much her whole life, I like talking about my darkest thoughts and not having the threat of 911 looking over me. It destigmatizes suicide. I have learned about some of the dangers of failing at suicide attempts. It has connected me with people I wouldn't have met otherwise, and connection is literally a protective factor against suicide. Just some food for thought.

 

[GhostInTheMachine]

"What could have been" is a nice thought, and one worth considering, but we can't let that erase what is happening now. People willingly end their lives because they're suffering, and while it's true that some people have a very low tolerance for it and should be assisted in other ways first, most have already developed an extreme tolerance for that suffering and it's still not enough to prevent their suicide. Saving those who yet may not know they want to be saved is inevitibly a good thing, but how far will you go with that mindset, and will you be able to determine when the person you're "saving" simply can't be?

The brutal reality is that sometimes in the pursuit of allowing individual autonomy for all, we must accept some will use that autonomy to hastily end a life that may have potentially recovered. However, we can't let *potential* comeback stories be the reason we deny *definitive* mercies. We must always allow individuals the freedom to make their own choices, mistakes and all. Otherwise, we'll continue to deny the suffering the mercy they ought to be entitled to. Data on this is difficult if not impossible to obtain, but it's overwhelmingly likely that for every potential recovery that was prematurely ceased, there are hundreds, if not thousands, I'd even say millions who are denied their ultimate peace.

SN is but one of many methods, and the go-to because of it's efficacy and relative tidyness. All other methods have downsides that make them either worse for the recipient, or worse for the related. My determined method will be firearm or car crash, but I would hope few would ever have to follow my footsteps when I'm gone.