masculinity belongs in the DSM6

[NaturalBornNEET]

Nothing makes me see red more than when other men project their fragile masculinity onto me. My uncle once told me to stop acting hard because I was... overheating. Bitch I'm not trying to prove anything to you my skin is currently erupting with hives because I'm so vulnerable to the heat! You know what else is bullshit? Being able to "hold your liquor" as a measure of masculinity. How how HOW is needing to spend MORE money on your shitty ethanol slop a brag? How is having to drink MORE high calorie health destroying drain cleaner a brag? Genuinely what is the rational? Is my autism perhaps the reason I've never been able to see masculinity as nothing but self harm and tomfoolery?

Masculinity seems to only function in the context of a brutal and violent world, a world with a malicious "other", a world with enemies. All the main traits of masculinity: protection (only makes sense in the context of a world where there are inimical actors and forces you have to protect from. Providence: only makes sense in a world with limited resources, where not obtaining those resources = death. I could go on.

To me masculinity is submission, the love of rigid and dominating hierarchies, need for certainty and a place in that hierarchy and to maintain it, contempt and abuse of those below you in the hierarchy and submission and supplication of those above you in the hierarchy. Masculinity is to be stockholm syndrome'd to nature and tradition. Masculinity is to make an art out of self harm and harming others, to shit your pants just to spite those around you who have to put up with the smell.

I've never had a "positive" masculine role model in my life so I have no reason to believe non-toxic masculinity exists. Are there any aspects of masculinity that aren't just... completely corrupt?

Why is the song called "girls just wanna have fun" and not "people just wanna have fun", cuz from all my lived experience up until this point, the masculine just seems to want to harm, harm harm HARM HARM HARM harm HARM HARM AND NOTHING ELSE! AND THIS HARM EXALTS US EVEN!????? OH GOD WHERE DID WE GO WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I'm never leaving my room again

 

[NaturalBornNEET]

Seems I'm too unhinged even for this site

 

[Pluto]

 

[NaturalBornNEET]

I just don't see how I could ever reconcile myself with the gender roles that have been forced onto me

 

[cakedog]

This is actually a very well written and amazingly detailed viewpoint on your part
*bows in respect*

 

[astr4]

when you say you don't believe in non toxic masculinity, do you not believe men are capable of kindness/compassion/other good things? or do you frame those men as being "feminine" in nature?

i'm wondering if maybe the issue is how we're defining masculinity. for example @whywere is a guy i think of as doing masculinity right. but then, some might argue "oh he's not masculine, he's not manly" but i think he is so brave to have the openness and warmth that he does. i would call bravery a "manly" thing.

but also you're right, when i think of "masculine" moments i also think of a friend confronting someone harassing me, for example. of course in a perfect world it doesn't exist and it doesn't need to exist. but i mean. you don't have to only pull the masc out to reinforce a hierarchy. maybe the best use of masculinity in that regard is to constantly be challenging the existing status quo.

but yeah if you're surrounded by shitty men all that healthy masculinity stuff doesn't mean anything. trans men are generally more self aware, having had to obviously self reflect at some point in their lives LMAO so that could be a starting place

but ur anger is real justified and valid and it sounds like your uncle and whoever else can take a long walk off a short cliff. people are really fucking…. idk stupid about gender role stuff. hugs.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I definitely think toxic masculinity exists. Including this apparent need to live up to things or, out do one another. Maybe in the animal kingdom, guys simply fight for dominance but I suppose humans have found all sorts of other (sometimes nonsensical) ways to do so.

But sure- I'd say positive masculinity exists too. Kindness and strength, without it being a competition. One of our managers at work was a very authorative, caring figure who wasn't afraid to show vulnerability. Maybe though because in his younger days, he had been toxically masculine- showing aggression, flying off the handle, and he later realised it didn't do him any favours. Both that it harmed others and, himself. He had a nervous breakdown at one point. He'd grown far better at taking stressful situations in his stride whilst amazingly- showing concern that everyone else was doing ok too.

It's actually the more insecure men- I've tended to notice- who were more outwardly aggressive. Perhaps coincidence, but it tended to be shorter men I've noticed who had a very short fuse and who went out their way to try and immasculate other men.

This guy on the train once was trying to belittle his colleague. Telling him his own wife didn't need to work. His salary was enough. That he would ring home demanding what he wanted for dinner. It's almost amusing really because I thought- I bet the majority of people on this train just think you're a dick.

That's the irony I think. To even have to explain to others how much better you are surely reveals a need for their approval- which reveals weakness ultimately. I tend to think positive masulinity stays quietly confident. Because it's obvious in their actions and manner- who they are.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

I have a complicated relationship with masculinity. I believe in non-toxic masculinity as a trans man, but I think a lot of people who define non-toxic masculinity are too obsessed with societal gender roles.

A lot of people try to say that if you show physical protection towards those younger than you, or family, or your children, that is your "masculine spiritual energy." Yeah, sure... as if a mother grizzly wouldn't pop your head like a balloon for getting 10 feet away from her cubs... guess she's a dad now!

Wicca and other cobbled-together new-age spiritual beliefs (no offense if you believe them, but I suggest researching the "creator" of Wicca... ) have bastardized the idea of the masculine and feminine that Indigenous and Pagan people have believed for centuries, and the patriarchy has done even worse.

I have a hard time explaining my masculinity, because it is also inherently feminine. Sorta paradoxical. The more feminine I allow myself to dress/act, the more masculine I FEEL, it's like the balance brings out the traits that society constantly misdefines. True masculinity should be allowed to be soft, and feel emotions freely. That's all I'll say.

I think a lot of people would be better off viewing masculinity and femininity as a feeling rather than a state of being.

It's like asking "What is a woman?" You can't define it without "woman" in the definition because of how varied the experiences are (especially culturally and spirtually), but you also can't define it in other ways because it always manages to excludes people.

 

[cemeteryismyhome]

Words and labels get twisted and murky. I believe true masculinity is kind, self-sacrificing, supportive, necessary for a healthy and viable society (which we do not have anywhere that I know of). But so many men are obnoxious destructive idiots the whole idea is a mess now. I hope you can believe not all men are bad, but I can't blame you if you do.

 

[cowplantabduction]

I've never had a "positive" masculine role model in my life so I have no reason to believe non-toxic masculinity exists. Are there any aspects of masculinity that aren't just... completely corrupt?

In my experience: butch lesbians, drag kings, and transgender men tend to be excellent models of non-toxic masculinity.

 

[martyrdom]

Masculinity and femininity are socially constructed and do not exist inherently in anyone, there is no such thing as femininity or masculinity. They are social roles through which women are oppressed and through which men assert and reaffirm their status as the dominant class under patriarchy. There is nothing inherently masculine or feminine about anything because that doesn't actually exist.

 

[MyLastTour]

I know that I don't know enough about gender roles, their history, and the various shapes taken between societies to give an appropriately academic answer, so I'll stick to a more personal take.

Making a delineation of behaviours and attributes into masculine and feminine inherently predicates already existing expectations for what people 'should' be doing. That is something I despise. I hate seeing agency stripped for the sake of upholding ideals are never going to serve you. It's even worse nowadays though given there is a political and monetary incentive to radicalise young people with said gender roles and expectations.

Masculinity to me just means being who you want to be, refusing to be defined into something you're not, and upholding your beliefs and values. It's about fighting for what matters, but not being a cunt about it. Also being able to take a joke, not abuse though. I think a man who can't a take a jab doesn't have the self-assuredness he wants to portray by 'defending' himself from something meant in jest.

 

[Sweet Tart]

Well said. The idea that everyone should conform to traditional gender roles is so toxic. Sure, some people may naturally embody them, but I wish it didn't feel compulsory in mainstream society.

 

[martyrdom]

Masculinity to me just means being who you want to be, refusing to be defined into something you're not, and upholding your beliefs and values. It's about fighting for what matters, but not being a cunt about it. Also being able to take a joke, not abuse though. I think a man who can't a take a jab doesn't have the self-assuredness he wants to portray by 'defending' himself from something meant in jest.

Why is that masculine to you?
A better question would be, why are any traits masculine or feminine to you? Why ascribe those to masculinity or femininity rather than just neutral human traits?

 

[MyLastTour]

Why is that masculine to you?
A better question would be, why are any traits masculine or feminine to you? Why ascribe those to masculinity or femininity rather than just neutral human traits?

Well to answer your first question, I perceive it as masculine purely because it has been what has been modeled to me and what I find desirable. That's about it, I'm not ascribing anything objective to it in and of itself; I'm not that grandiose.

You seem to be asking for something I never really set out for. I do agree that on an objective level or whatever that there isn't inherently masculine or feminine traits or behaviours - they are entirely a product of society, the end result of which is ostracisation for self-expression at best, and outright control over what one can do at all in a society. I would think it would be for the best if we did not have these expectations altogether. Unfortunately, that is not a liberation I foresee coming anytime soon.

In lieu of what would be ideal, I think the next best option is just going to be co-opting masculinity with something less toxic.

 

[martyrdom]

In lieu of what would be ideal, I think the next best option is just going to be co-opting masculinity with something less toxic.

I understand what you're saying. In my view, it's best to do away with the concept of gender roles and masculinity/femininity in the first place. Recognize it as a set of social constructs meant to facilitate the oppression of women and not try to mollify it by changing its definition, because that in itself affirms it as a concept, which reinforces gender roles. In short, it's best to completely abolish gender roles rather than redefine them because the problem is not with the definition of the gender roles but with the existence of them in the first place.