I was happy for the trans girl who managed to kill herself recently

[joaosembraco12]

Have you seen this case? It caught the headlines on twitter a few days ago. A trans woman threw herself off the bridge and killed herself. I know my title is a bit creepy, but I didn't celebrate and feel happy for transphobic reasons or anything like that. I was happy because I see this as an achievement for her, in the same way that I would be happy for a relative who got a new job or a friend who was accepted into college. It was an achievement, the person wanted something, made an effort towards it and succeeded. I know it's a bit morbid to think like that, I don't want to sound edgy or anything, but I see a lot of people seeing this as a tragedy, especially the LGBT community. I think, why would it be a tragedy? He had a pain and decided to get rid of it, in the end she achieved her goal. Anyway, we suicidal people are misunderstood, people want us to live and get into the grinding machine that is society. It's not like that, not every suicide is a sad case, I know she's young and all, I know it's "sad", but maybe for her it was the best.

 

[Alexandra0]

May she rest in peace . I'm happy for her too. If she did it, it must have been for a very good reason. Jumping off a bridge takes willpower

 

[quins]

Was it this person?

 

[Dot]

Slf cnnt C ctb in tht wy

If thy wre suffrng t/ xtent whre thy flt ctb ws thr only optn thn slf commemr8 thm bt thr stuatn snds tragc

Also th/ amnt of mockry tht thr suicde hs attrctd = dsgustng -- if ppl thnk tht SaSu = 'evl' thn thy shld chck th/ commnts undrneth tht usrs finl pst

If thy wn2 knw Y ppl kll thmslves thn thre wll b mny answrs thre

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Was it this person?

Am assumng tht = thm

 

[joaosembraco12]

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Was it this person?

Yes, her.

 

[LastNite]

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Was it this person?

what a nice view

 

[quins]

May she rest in peace . I'm happy for her too. If she did it, it must have been for a very good reason. Jumping off a bridge takes willpower

Willpower or incalculable despair? These are not the same. Conviction is principled, suicide is not (unless you're an informant ingesting cyanuret).

 

[Dot]

what a nice view

Tht ws wht 1 of thr finl commnts on twittr sd b4 thy jumpd

Spoiler: Twittr a-hles -- TW - trnsphobc h8

& othr ppl vistd tht suicde area wth printd-off mmes mockng th/ persn tht thy lft thre

Tht = ppl mockng deth of a *chld*

 

[ForestGhost]

I don't know, this is one I can't feel good about. Charlotte (the girl's name) was a child. She spent a lot of time in online gaming spaces, and I can only imagine that subjected her to a lot of transphobia. Then after her death she was endlessly mocked by the same chuds and even had her twitter account hacked. Everything about it is really sad to me.

 

[LastNite]

Tht ws wht 1 of thr finl commnts on twittr sd b4 thy jumpd

Spoiler: Twittr a-hles -- TW - trnsphobc h8

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& othr ppl vistd tht suicde area wth printd-off mmes mockng th/ persn tht thy lft thre

Tht = ppl mockng deth of a *chld*

Peopel like that are disgusting. Fucking vile shit heads.

 

[Namelesa]

I wouldn't say what you feel is wrong at all as you are just glad that she has escaped her suffering. While the reasons for her suicide were very tragic as she had to deal with so much pain and hate from god awful people, I personally don't see death or suicide as a bad thing as we can't suffer or be disadvantaged in non existence. I am glad she was able to escape that pain and hate and not have to deal with these people anymore even if its through death. The sad thing here is what the transphobia causing and commenting on her death, not her death itself.

 

[joaosembraco12]

I don't know, this is one I can't feel good about. Charlotte (the girl's name) was a child. She spent a lot of time in online gaming spaces, and I can only imagine that subjected her to a lot of transphobia. Then after her death she was endlessly mocked by the same chuds and even had her twitter account hacked. Everything about it is really sad to me.

Yes, let's be clear that my "happiness" for her is not in that sense. I'm fully aware that the whole situation is fucked up, I'm fully aware that the situation is sad and lamentable, I'm not edgy or anything like that. I know that suicide is not the best option. I'm suicidal, is that what I wanted? No, I'd like to solve my problems and be happy. But suicide is a way out, you know, I don't say that proudly, but I think that way, suicide is a way out, whether we like it or not. Anyway, maybe it was good for her, you know? I don't know what was going through her head, but for her to get to that point, it's because she had no other option . Anyway, I don't see it as a "tragedy", of course, people mocking her, the fact that she's young, it's all a bunch of shit, but for her, and being very selfish here, it may have been the best way.

 

[kagebunshin]

Willpower or incalculable despair? These are not the same. Conviction is principled, suicide is not (unless you're an informant ingesting cyanuret).

Suicide can absolutely be principled (not saying it was in this case but generally).

 

[Alexandra0]

Willpower or incalculable despair? These are not the same. Conviction is principled, suicide is not (unless you're an informant ingesting cyanuret).

Willpower is willpower, even in Africa. Without it, you can't commit KTB. It's simple, you either have it or you don't. If you don't have it, then even with all your great desire, you won't be able to kill yourself

 

[quins]

Suicide can absolutely be principled (not saying it was in this case but generally).

In what way? Suicide, as I see it, is a "throwing away" of principles, or the self-destruction of the moral agent. It is a cosmically ironic act.

Willpower is willpower, even in Africa. Without it, you can't commit KTB. It's simple, you either have it or you don't. If you don't have it, then even with all your great desire, you won't be able to kill yourself

I don't agree. I'm sure that there are certain "safety mechanisms" in our architecture which necessitate a kind of "willpower" in order to overcome this instinct, but I could just as easily refer to "urgency", or an overpowering drive which isn't quite rational, not quite the same.

 

[Almost Dead]

Honestly I do understand your thought process here, because this one got some conflicting emotions from me as well... This is purely selfish and I do feel guilty about it, but I always tend to feel so jealous whenever I hear of anyone having a successful suicide attempt; this was no exception lol. In this case though, personally it did feel pretty devastating. She was just so young, and the immediate transphobic hatred that followed was so fucking disgusting. I know she must have been in pain for a while... Being trans in the current political climate in the US (and everywhere else really) feels like hell. While I don't feel happy it happened, and I do feel it is a tragedy, I'm glad she isn't suffering anymore at least.

 

[joaosembraco12]

Honestly I do understand your thought process here, because this one got some conflicting emotions from me as well... This is purely selfish and I do feel guilty about it, but I always tend to feel so jealous whenever I hear of anyone having a successful suicide attempt; this was no exception lol. In this case though, personally it did feel pretty devastating. She was just so young, and the immediate transphobic hatred that followed was so fucking disgusting. I know she must have been in pain for a while... Being trans in the current political climate in the US (and everywhere else really) feels like hell. While I don't feel happy it happened, and I do feel it is a tragedy, I'm glad she isn't suffering anymore at least.

Exactly, I think you understand me and maybe even expressed it better than I did. I have my doubts about youth in this case, like, I know that giving up so young isn't ideal, I know it's a factor to be considered, but I don't fall for the "things get better with time" narrative. Sometimes it's just a prolongation of the suffering. Anyway, 17 years old already has a degree of autonomy, is already self-aware, has critical thinking, it was a "choice", she wanted it and she did it, it wasn't something alienated and without conscience. That gives me comfort, knowing that she probably wanted it.

 

[Blueberry Panic]

I saw all the rude and transphobic messages people left for her and it makes me absolutely disgusted. She deserved way better then what this world gave her. I hope she rests in peace .

 

[kagebunshin]

In what way? Suicide, as I see it, is a "throwing away" of principles, or the self-destruction of the moral agent. It is a cosmically ironic act.

There are so many instances throughout history of people committing suicide for principles they held to be of greater value than their own individual lives. Kamikaze pilots, all those Tibetan monks and nuns who died by self-immolation, Mohamed Bouazizi, Wynn Bruce, Mishima Yukio, not to mention the uncountable number of Japanese samurai who died by suicide from the 12th century on. Hell, even Robin Williams could be considered as having taken his life in order to retain his sense of self rather than yield to Lewy Body Dementia. The list goes on.

 

[quins]

There are so many instances throughout history of people committing suicide for principles they held to be of greater value than their own individual lives. Kamikaze pilots, all those Tibetan monks and nuns who died by self-immolation, Mohamed Bouazizi, Wynn Bruce, Mishima Yukio, not to mention the uncountable number of Japanese samurai who died by suicide from the 12th century on. Hell, even Robin Williams could be considered as having taken his life in order to retain his sense of self rather than yield to Lewy Body Dementia. The list goes on.

I hadn't considered cases like "seppuku", which I should have clarified. I wouldn't consider these typical, a "submission" to an end-goal, an explication of a higher principle, rather than seeing suicide as exhaustive. In cases of those such as Mishima, their deaths cannot be called self-destruction, for their deaths were "immortalized", unlike the majority who want to be forgotten.

 

[qwert3948]

Have you seen this case? It caught the headlines on twitter a few days ago. A trans woman threw herself off the bridge and killed herself. I know my title is a bit creepy, but I didn't celebrate and feel happy for transphobic reasons or anything like that. I was happy because I see this as an achievement for her, in the same way that I would be happy for a relative who got a new job or a friend who was accepted into college. It was an achievement, the person wanted something, made an effort towards it and succeeded. I know it's a bit morbid to think like that, I don't want to sound edgy or anything, but I see a lot of people seeing this as a tragedy, especially the LGBT community. I think, why would it be a tragedy? He had a pain and decided to get rid of it, in the end she achieved her goal. Anyway, we suicidal people are misunderstood, people want us to live and get into the grinding machine that is society. It's not like that, not every suicide is a sad case, I know she's young and all, I know it's "sad", but maybe for her it was the best.

as you said its a bit morbid to be happy, but at least she can rest in peace now. far away from all those transphobic assholes who keep talking about her suicide on twitter.

 

[kagebunshin]

I hadn't considered cases like "seppuku", which I should have clarified. I wouldn't consider these typical, a "submission" to an end-goal, an explication of a higher principle, rather than seeing suicide as exhaustive. In cases of those such as Mishima, their deaths cannot be called self-destruction, for their deaths were "immortalized", unlike the majority who want to be forgotten.

Sorry I don't think I really understand what you mean. All the cases I mentioned are of people committing suicide. Whether you say that they were immortalised by doing so doesn't change that fact, it's still the act of someone taking their own life. I was just trying to express examples of suicide being principled. Mishima's death was, by nature, self-destructive. But he gave his life for principles he believed in and regarded as being of greater value than his individual life, so no one could claim that he was depressed or suffering from mental illness.

 

[bankai]

Tht ws wht 1 of thr finl commnts on twittr sd b4 thy jumpd

Spoiler: Twittr a-hles -- TW - trnsphobc h8

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& othr ppl vistd tht suicde area wth printd-off mmes mockng th/ persn tht thy lft thre

Tht = ppl mockng deth of a *chld*

Don't these people realize that she was just a human being? Gender doesn't even matter. We're all human beings first. Gender comes next. I'm not sure why being behind a keyboard can make someone be so despicable.

 

[quins]

Sorry I don't think I really understand what you mean. All the cases I mentioned are of people committing suicide. Whether you say that they were immortalised by doing so doesn't change that fact, it's still the act of someone taking their own life. I was just trying to express examples of suicide being principled. Mishima's death was, by nature, self-destructive. But he gave his life for principles he believed in and regarded as being of greater value than his individual life, so no one could claim that he was depressed or suffering from mental illness.

Mishima's death, and those principles which led to the glory he sought in death, are not germane to generalized instances of suicide, sorry if I was unclear on that. When I speak of suicide I naturally don't refer to old world suicides or suicides conceived out of political or philosophical contexts. Even if I pare my argument down to exclude those cases, I'm assuming that these instances are incredibly rare (including the ones we do not know about). I understand what you are arguing though. "Because there are instances of 'principled' suicide, it categorically cannot be unprincipled, even for those who do not meet those relatively unique conditions." I accept that argument, so I'll change my stance: rarely is suicide ever "principled" and it is unproductive to call it such, though it can be; but assuming that it is in the majority of cases as a default stance is wrong. You probably aren't arguing that, but that's my clarification.

 

[kagebunshin]

Mishima's death, and those principles which led to the glory he sought in death, are not germane to generalized instances of suicide, sorry if I was unclear on that. When I speak of suicide I naturally don't refer to old world suicides or suicides conceived out of political or philosophical contexts. Even if I pare my argument down to exclude those cases, I'm assuming that these instances are incredibly rare (including the ones we do not know about). I understand what you are arguing though. "Because there are instances of 'principled' suicide, it categorically cannot be unprincipled, even for those who do not meet those relatively unique conditions." I accept that argument, so I'll change my stance: rarely is suicide ever "principled" and it is unproductive to call it such, though it can be; but assuming that it is in the majority of cases as a default stance is wrong. You probably aren't arguing that, but that's my clarification.

Well, that is where you and I disagree. It was Publius Terence Afer who said "Homo sum, humani nihil ame alienum puto" - "I am human, therefore nothing human is alien to me." Categorising principled suicides as belonging to some higher, heroic "old world" is, I think, a misunderstanding of human nature. Just because someone in the modern world is locked in their room without a sense of purpose, that doesn't mean that they can't feel principled in their hearts. I don't think it's unproductive to say that suicide can be principled when there are so many examples of it being so. You're right that I'm not saying it is in the majority of cases; however, I will venture to speculate that more suicides are principled than may come across. I think many people take their own lives because they feel the world to be antagonistic - rightfully so - and execute their own quiet protest against it. I confess I'm a bit defensive because I felt my own suicide attempt last year to be principled. The Dostoevsky line from Crime and Punishment always resonated with me when he said that it wasn't a person he killed but a principle. I know it's misguided in my own instance. I just regret I have nothing to die for!

 

[livershapedbox]

I think she took the logical choice given her circumstances (well other than posting about it on twitter given how that went). So I'm glad she isn't suffering anymore, but it's sad that she had those circumstances to begin with

 

[vileforgot]

congrats, you have basic human empathy. it's scary how many people don't

 

[Alexandra0]

Tht ws wht 1 of thr finl commnts on twittr sd b4 thy jumpd

Spoiler: Twittr a-hles -- TW - trnsphobc h8

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& othr ppl vistd tht suicde area wth printd-off mmes mockng th/ persn tht thy lft thre

Tht = ppl mockng deth of a *chld*

You can't even call such people people! How does Zamlya carry such people? They assert themselves at someone else's expense. It's just a nightmare come true

 

[quins]

Well, that is where you and I disagree. It was Publius Terence Afer who said "Homo sum, humani nihil ame alienum puto" - "I am human, therefore nothing human is alien to me." Categorising principled suicides as belonging to some higher, heroic "old world" is, I think, a misunderstanding of human nature. Just because someone in the modern world is locked in their room without a sense of purpose, that doesn't mean that they can't feel principled in their hearts. I don't think it's unproductive to say that suicide can't be principled when there are so many examples of it being so.

We disagree on the particulars of what we might call "principled", and I don't think I'm "misunderstanding" human nature (what does that mean, anyhow?) But yes, I am stretching the rubber band a bit far when I include "principled" suicides in presumably "non-principled" cases where that might presumably not be the case, as for instance in the lives of certain poets, perhaps, who have taken their lives for reasons not inherently principled, but merely assumed. If Hölderlin had committed suicide, a man who was "benighted" by insanity yet a poet of the deepest feeling, I would not consider that "principled", even though his biographers or admirers might have considered it such.

Which brings me to my point that I don't believe "conviction" to be appropriate in applying to most cases (I wager it's something else, not "desperation" but something a bit more ambiguous in nature), and that there's a certain airiness with which I apply the label to "noble causes." You're correct, perhaps they believe themselves to have conviction at heart, though as someone working outside of their mind I can only conceive of their judgement as "exhausted" by particular circumstances. "What we term virtue is often but a mass of various actions and divers interests, which fortune, or our own industry, manage to arrange; and it is not always from valour or from chastity that men are brave, and women chaste." When people consider suicide an inviolable wrong, it's one side of the same coin.

You're right that I'm not saying it is in the majority of cases; however, I will venture to speculate that more suicides are principled than may come across. I think many people take their own lives because they feel the world to be antagonistic - rightfully so - and execute their own quiet protest against it. I confess I'm a bit defensive because I felt my own suicide attempt last year to be principled. The Dostoevsky line from Crime and Punishment always resonated with me when he said that it wasn't a person he killed but a principle. I know it's misguided in my own instance. I just regret I have nothing to die for!

I do not think that is the case. The reasons for suicide are in abundance. What I call "mental sclerosis" or "insurmountable anguish", you would deem a rational diagnosis, a thing born out of absolute "rational choice", which I don't agree with. I'm using the term "rationality" loosely, but basically most suicides are only "purpose-based" in the sense of trying to cessate life. Mishima's suicide was not just "self-destructive", but rebirth, or "immortalization", though that's assuming he didn't want to die, but was ready to die. A soldier. A soldier, however, who accepts death is not "principled" but merely realistic, whereas Mishima was a soldier involved in a time purged of warhorse heroism, a time earmarked by the revolution of the "individual."

Your suicide may well be "principled", I don't know you and never will, perhaps you are an exception. It isn't my call. I know my suicide won't be "principled", so perhaps we are both projecting some mental state onto a "real" state-of-affairs, and my view could be just as specious, or more. I can't say. I could also consider my suicide as "antagonistic" of the world, a "quiet protest", though that's just my own particular neurosis, it might be lost or misconstrued or forgotten after a time.

I haven't read C&P since I was around twenty-something... Raskolnikov's ending always struck me, the Napoleonic spirit with which he carried himself may have been brought about by particulars (as most would perceive him as a "madman" from the outside), but his redemption is unequivocally "principled" in a sense that I could never be, for to me it is far harder (not noble, but "harder"), to live in a world which is antagonistic to you. In both cases where one might die for an ideal and the other might live for one, the former is subject to the pettiness of man, while the latter is "lived, cherished", hence why in my earlier post I said that the self-destruction of the moral agent is an irony of cosmic proportions. I don't mean that as condemnation (look where I am). I just don't see the act of suicide as something whose value ought to be bottled up in the way that deeds or vices are.

Sorry for longpoast.

 

[kagebunshin]

We disagree on the particulars of what we might call "principled", and I don't think I'm "misunderstanding" human nature (what does that mean, anyhow?) But yes, I am stretching the rubber band a bit far when I include "principled" suicides in presumably "non-principled" cases where that might presumably not be the case, as for instance in the lives of certain poets, perhaps, who have taken their lives for reasons not inherently principled, but merely assumed. If Hölderlin had committed suicide, a man who was "benighted" by insanity yet a poet of the deepest feeling, I would not consider that "principled", even though his biographers or admirers might have considered it such.

Which brings me to my point that I don't believe "conviction" to be appropriate in applying to most cases (I wager it's something else, not "desperation" but something a bit more ambiguous in nature), and that there's a certain airiness with which I apply the label to "noble causes." You're correct, perhaps they believe themselves to have conviction at heart, though as someone working outside of their mind I can only conceive of their judgement as "exhausted" by particular circumstances. "What we term virtue is often but a mass of various actions and divers interests, which fortune, or our own industry, manage to arrange; and it is not always from valour or from chastity that men are brave, and women chaste." When people consider suicide an inviolable wrong, it's one side of the same coin.

I do not think that is the case. The reasons for suicide are in abundance. What I call "mental sclerosis" or "insurmountable anguish", you would deem a rational diagnosis, a thing born out of absolute "rational choice", which I don't agree with. I'm using the term "rationality" loosely, but basically most suicides are only "purpose-based" in the sense of trying to cessate life. Mishima's suicide was not just "self-destructive", but rebirth, or "immortalization", though that's assuming he didn't want to die, but was ready to die. A soldier. A soldier, however, who accepts death is not "principled" but merely realistic, whereas Mishima was a soldier involved in a time purged of warhorse heroism, a time earmarked by the revolution of the "individual."

Your suicide may well be "principled", I don't know you and never will, perhaps you are an exception. It isn't my call. I know my suicide won't be "principled", so perhaps we are both projecting some mental state onto a "real" state-of-affairs, and my view could be just as specious, or more. I can't say. I could also consider my suicide as "antagonistic" of the world, a "quiet protest", though that's just my own particular neurosis, it might be lost or misconstrued or forgotten after a time.

I haven't read C&P since I was around twenty-something... Raskolnikov's ending always struck me, the Napoleonic spirit with which he carried himself may have been brought about by particulars (as most would perceive him as a "madman" from the outside), but his redemption is unequivocally "principled" in a sense that I could never be, for to me it is far harder (not noble, but "harder"), to live in a world which is antagonistic to you. In both cases where one might die for an ideal and the other might live for one, the former is subject to the pettiness of man, while the latter is "lived, cherished", hence why in my earlier post I said that the self-destruction of the moral agent is an irony of cosmic proportions. I don't mean that as condemnation (look where I am). I just don't see the act of suicide as something whose value ought to be bottled up in the way that deeds or vices are.

Sorry for longpoast.

I do think that the majority of people take their own lives due to personal anguish, depression, grief, mental illness, what have you, and that principled suicides are more rare. I also think there can be crossover between the two, that one does not inherently exclude the other. You're probably right that each of us is projecting their own experience onto what could be considered common - I believe more die for principles because I tried to die (and will eventually die) for principles. Your perception of the general consensus is affected by your own experience. I think it's unavoidable.

What you wrote about Mishima was just lovely and I agree to an extent. On the surface, one could argue his entire philosophy was antiquated and that his spirit belonged to a different, grander, more legendary time. His manner of death and the ideals therein belong to the pages of the heroic epics he revered. He orchestrated it to be that way. But the fact is that he died in 1970 very much a modern man relatively speaking. Actually, I'm curious about your perception of his death. The very notion of conviction is very interesting to me. How can someone execute a suicide that could, in your view, be considered not a destruction of the self but an immortalising rebirth? Do they have to enact a coup, as he did, or have some kind of manifesto? Does it have to be political? I'm also thinking about those Buddhist monks who undergo self-mummification.

I'm enjoying this back and forth, thanks for sharing your views~