Discussion I have Narcissistic Personality Disorder (AMA)

[NormallyNeurotic]

Narcissism is definitely a touchy subject (I could talk more about that fact), but I figure that the best way to actually add nuance to a topic is to just... let people ask questions.

So hi! I have NPD aka Narcissistic Personality Disorder. This is a lil snippet of my story:

I developed the traits young due to various types of abuse and neglect, and I finally realized I had it in my mid-teens.

My journey of healing and understanding myself was hard and I found myself turning into a doormat at times to avoid expressing any sort of non-humble trait. I essentially tried to fix my NPD with no therapy, and no realistic sympathetic depiction or discussion of narcissism, so it led to a lot of internalized issues (like worsening Moral OCD).

I tried to bring it up to a therapist, but she basically said I was "too nice" to be a narcissist and blamed these traits I was struggling with on another disorder I have. I believed her for a while and dissociated harder from my narcissism—therefore repressing and ignoring the unresolved trauma that caused it—for years.

I finally allowed myself to acknowledge it when I started talking to more people with stigmatized disorders like NPD, ASPD, AvPD, etc. Took while to go from "I have BPD" to "I have BPD with narcissistic traits" to " I have both BPD and NPD and that's okay" but I got there.


I wanted to make this thread so people could ask questions because I think it'd be nice to actually talk more about the facts of NPD instead of the pop psychology abuser caricature of it.

Ask any question you want, if it's genuinely too uncomfortable to discuss I'll just say that. Also before we start... yes, I have DID, yes multiple alters have NPD, no not all of them do.

hi to the lovely peeps from my profile who encouraged me to do this. you rock

 

[me_when_:D]

self-aware people with NPD are quite rare, how did you found out about you having NPD?

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

self-aware people with NPD are quite rare, how did you found out about you having NPD?

It's actually not as rare as one might think.

I've had more issues with autistic people who refuse to acknowledge that their aversion to change & stubborn demeanor are making them misunderstood nuanced situations and jump to conclusions (both sides of my family are made up of mostly autistic people and I grew up in special needs schools. I have met more autistic people than allistics)

Narcissists being un-self-aware is just as common as other neurodivergencies being that way. It's just that people confuse general sadism and selfishness for NPD. Humans are inherently selfish creatures. We're animals, after all. Pack animals, but we've turned away from community, so now we focus too much on survival.

Anyway, for your answer
I found out because I was destroying friendships. A lot of these people were also dysregulated (some I've since reconnected with!) but I had an issue with making myself the center of attention and feeling that I as being snubbed if I wasn't included. I had a hard time understanding others feelings, because I lack Affective Empathy and hadn't practiced enough Cognitive Empathy yet.

I also had very few real connections at that point and I got possessive of those that I viewed as my only friends, and my found family. I literally called these people my siblings.

I had researched psychology since I was a kid. Growing up autistic made it clear that the only way to survive was to study human behavior. I had to pretend to be human the way they were (I honestly don't feel human at all nowadays but that's not completely related to the NPD). Because of that, I knew the basics of NPD from a DSM perspective, but I had also internalized a lot of the media stereotypes as well, so the discovery wasn't all sunshine and rainbows.

 

[itsgone2]

Hello. I also have all the traits of npd. It has certainly ruined my life and greatly affected people around me. I see it now and have changed, but it many ways it's too late.
However, my therapist says that a person could never really recognize a personality disorder. That I have certainly exhibited all those traits , but to be self aware and want to change, that I couldn't really have a disorder.
I'm assuming you disagree? I've always had a hard time with it. She gave a good explanation as to what she meant, but then I also think, what's the difference. It's how I acted and it messed up people I care about.
Anyway, was curious on your perspective about that.

 

[whitetaildeer]

If it's okay to ask: If you were at your lowest point mentally, how could a friend most effectively support you? I know a pwNPD and I worry I don't/can't do enough for them.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

Hello. I also have all the traits of npd. It has certainly ruined my life and greatly affected people around me. I see it now and have changed, but it many ways it's too late.
However, my therapist says that a person could never really recognize a personality disorder. That I have certainly exhibited all those traits , but to be self aware and want to change, that I couldn't really have a disorder.
I'm assuming you disagree? I've always had a hard time with it. She gave a good explanation as to what she meant, but then I also think, what's the difference. It's how I acted and it messed up people I care about.
Anyway, was curious on your perspective about that.

Allllright, this'll be a very long read. Sorry


A disorder listed in the DSM that the patient themselves could never identify or want to change is absurd to think about. Even people with severe psychosis can briefly realize that something is very wrong. Hell, even people with dementia have lucid moments!

There is no evidence that someone with a personality disorder cannot tell the have one/want to get better. Personality disorders are collections of maladaptive traits that are both enabled by genetic predisposition and "activated" by trauma. That's like saying you can't read a list of symptoms and go "huh, that's kind of like me, maybe I should get checked."

Your therapist is using old talking points from the "female hysteria" era of medicine. Of course the patient "can never tell" if they have a disorder when the diagnostican is only using that disorder as a label to harm the patient.

If that therapist truly believes what they say, I assume that they shun therapy like Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, right? Considering that therapy was designed by someone with BPD who wanted to help others with BPD, if your therapist doesn't condemn it, they're a bit of a hypocrite.

I totally get what you mean about "what does it matter, I already did it?" by the way. I look back and even though a lot of my worse actions were as a younger teen, it still makes me want to crawl out of my skin. Here's the thing, though... what does "too late" even mean?

If you can go about your life doing good, and bettering yourself not just for others, but also to show yourself that you are not just your traits, your trauma, a diagnosis—you're you. You are what you make of yourself.

Of course there will always be nature and nuture, circumstances and the like. But I think if you take steps now, it's still worth trying. You can't go back and undo what you did. Believe me, I wish I could too. But you can make more informed actions in the here and now.

Nobody is perfect. Some of us have a more "imperfect" past than others. But as a fellow narc... you aren't alone. Wherever life takes you, I hope you are able to remember to balance guilt with accountability. That's one thing I've always struggled with. But neither of us are evil.

To cheesily quote one of my favorite musical artists (who has admitted to having at least one Cluster B personality disorder and has discussed his "narcissism" in the past... can you tell I'm obsessed with his music yet):

Vice-versa, vice versus virtue
Well who I am I choose through all the things I do

Fuck the past. Let's see how far you can make it now that you're in the present.

---

If it's okay to ask: If you were at your lowest point mentally, how could a friend most effectively support you? I know a pwNPD and I worry I don't/can't do enough for them.

Another sorta long response.

Support can be complicated because narcissistic collapse is one of the worst feelings ever.

I'm both an extrovert and a narcissist, and being around other humans sort of fuels me. But I also have a brain disorder that made me into a shut-in for years straight, barely even leaving my own bed or room, let alone the house. Isolation is what fucks me up.

My entire life feels like a performance. Have you ever heard the song World's Greatest Actor? It's exactly that. But when there's no damn audience, then it's like being on a stage alone and you start to wonder if people even cared at all. I exist for the audience to cheer for. It's sometimes all I am.

When I'm isolated, I switch between feeling like I'm part of the walls and daydreaming so hard that I feel as if I'm being watched. Living life for myself is nearly impossible.

One major tip I'd give that a lot of my other narc friends relate to is:
A lot of us struggle with having any sort of drive to do anything unless there is someone "spectating" or "cheering us on." Even getting better and healing sometimes defaults to a sort of. "What's the point?" mindset.

So definitely discuss with your friends what works for them, if they're open to it. With some of my friends, them saying "I'm proud of you!" makes me preen like a damn bird. For others it makes me paranoid that I'm being pitied.

But what always helps me is to feel like I'm on a level playing field with others—like they aren't talking down to me when they encourage me, but instead walking alonside me on my journey. I can get the energy to walk if there's someone I care about to walk with. Ya feel me?

If a friend is not open about themselves and their own struggles, my brain sometimes defaults to "what do you know about the suffering I'm feeling?" Those "voices" of doubt and paranoia and grandiosity that make me feel insane are worse when I'm at my lowest.

So when your friend is suffering... be a witness. See them. However you do that is between you and your friend, but I hope this still helped.

 

[Forever Sleep]

If this is too much to ask, please ignore. I believe I grew up with a narcissist. Asides from regular bullying, they often lied about or to me. Either gas lighting- so- stuff like: 'We agreed to this- don't you remember?' Type of thing- to get their own way. Or, outright accusing me of (serious) things I hadn't done. To friends, teachers and parents.

I'm not sure you even participate in this kind of behaviour but, if you do, I suppose my question is: Do narcissists believe their own lies? But then- how? Do they just imagine stuff that hasn't happened at all? Or, do they realise it's a lie but, convince themselves the lie is reasonable?

If the lie is to manipulate, again- how conscious is it? Do they know they are trying to manipulate the person? Is the whole process conscious? They work out the most effective thing to say to get what they want? Or, is it just a desperate need for something that drives them?

Do you feel villainized often? I have to be honest and say I have such negative connotations with (suspected) narcissists. The whole reason I developed ideation to begin with was because of this one person. So, I find it hard to overcome my bias.

I try to reason that something must have happened to make them like that. That they most likely suffered/ suffer too but I struggle to feel so much sympathy if a person has caused so much damage themselves. (Not to say you have.) Do you wish people were more sympathetic towards you?

Do you think there are levels of narcissism? To some extent, perhaps we all have traits. But, do you find yourself looking at others and thinking they are more affected than you?

If you could be rid of your NPD, would you be? Or, are there elements of it that are nicer? Do you feel genuinely confident in yourself or, does it feel fake and, always under threat?

I have massive admiration for people who identify their own issues and try to work on them. Thank you for the opportunity to ask these questions. Obviously- feel free to ignore any that push too far. Also- they are based off of a person I believed was/ is a narcissist. They may not even be relevant to you.

 

[Greyhawk]

What are the most annoying common misconceptions about NPD that you stumble upon on the internet? Do you know any movies, tv shows or books that depict characters with NPD accurately?

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

LONG MESSAGE ALERT

If this is too much to ask, please ignore. I believe I grew up with a narcissist. Asides from regular bullying, they often lied about or to me. Either gas lighting- so- stuff like: 'We agreed to this- don't you remember?' Type of thing- to get their own way. Or, outright accusing me of (serious) things I hadn't done. To friends, teachers and parents.

I'm not sure you even participate in this kind of behaviour but, if you do, I suppose my question is: Do narcissists believe their own lies? But then- how? Do they just imagine stuff that hasn't happened at all? Or, do they realise it's a lie but, convince themselves the lie is reasonable?

So, you definitely can't tell if someone is a narcissist just from whether they are selfish and gaslit you. Unfortunately, media has told us that those two things coincide with NPD, when they've existed in abuse for years and narcissists aren't really more likely to do it than any run-of-the-mill controlling abuser.

I did have a tendency to lie when I was younger, but they were mostly to make myself seem more important. I would often one-up others because the moment I was in the presence of someone with more impressive experiences than me, I felt inferior—especially since I haven't actually had that many normal human experiences to begin with. I never even step foot in a high school!

I have met those who either have NPD or narcissistic traits tha do lie in the way you experienced, but the main variable wasn't the NPD, but the privilege they experienced that enabled them to act that way. Privilege corrupts any human, narcissist or not.

I've been a total bitch as a teen and I definitely lied and likely did minor gaslighting at least once. But more so because I was too afraid of the consequences of my actions, so I tried to convince then it never happened. Sort of a tactic to avoid responsibility and the helplessness you can feel when faced with the fact that you hurt someone?

I never really gaslit for fun, it was always to avoid reality as a whole. I was the KING to denial as a kid

As for believing the lies, it depends. I didn't believe most of the "one-upping" lies I did to look talented.

There were, however, lies that I would try to convince myself were real. When I fucked up friendships, sometimes it would be "they started it" or something. You don't genuinely believe it, it's not psychosis... you just... bury the truth in your mind and refuse to look at it. Deep down you know it's there. Schrödinger's truth?

This is actually an experience I have met other narcissists who do not relate to this, by the way. NPD presents in many ways, some that most would never believe in NPD. My constant need to feel useful and feel like my life isn't stagnating is a current symptom of my NPD now that I'm less snobby, for example.

If the lie is to manipulate, again- how conscious is it? Do they know they are trying to manipulate the person? Is the whole process conscious? They work out the most effective thing to say to get what they want? Or, is it just a desperate need for something that drives them?

There's a sort of spectrum of consciousness here. We're almost always aware to a certain extent, save for a few exceptions.

Those are:

• Young, developing narcissists (teens and kids often have a harder time controling actions, and can fall into patterns faster because their brainnis more survival oriented)
• Narcissists who are still currently victims in an abusive situation (since NPD is a survival mechanism, this can make it harder for the person to keep themselves grounded enough to recognize ally from foe)
• People who grew up in/exist in an environment that discourages taking accountability for actions (e.g. one of the many reasons autism is comorbid with narcissistic traits is because some "autism moms" will let their autistic sons get off scott-free for everything—then that combined with the emotional/medical neglect and trauma those kids experience with a mom like that, it can make the kid more likely to develop NPD as he grows)
• Maybe a few other examples I can't think of?

Over all, most of us are aware to a certain extent by the time we reach adulthood, even if we are subconsciously or consciously burying the truth in an attempt to not question our very being. It's a trauma response.

And I want to specify, NPD doesn't actually coincide with a higher rate of abusers like media claims.

When I say "we are aware," I don't mean "when we abuse," I mean "when we do any sort of shitty action." Most often times it's just showing a snobby, self-righteous attitude (if the narcissist has that trait, as not all do), or something benign but selfish.

Oh and another important thing is to understand how NPD works. It's caused by the fact that we essentially have no self esteem. It's an empty jar that we fill with the praise of others or empty with the criticisms of others. Our self-esteem only exists in relation to others and how we are perceived, we cannot regulate normally.

So we subconsciously try to make ourselves seem "important" in hopes that others see us that way. Or we genuinely fall into the delusion that we are that way (like I said, usually happens with adolescents).

If a narcissist does choose to abuse, though, the likelihood is that they abuse for the same reasons as all non-narc abusers. Power.

Do you feel villainized often? I have to be honest and say I have such negative connotations with (suspected) narcissists. The whole reason I developed ideation to begin with was because of this one person. So, I find it hard to overcome my bias.

I try to reason that something must have happened to make them like that. That they most likely suffered/ suffer too but I struggle to feel so much sympathy if a person has caused so much damage themselves. (Not to say you have.) Do you wish people were more sympathetic towards you?

I do have the inherent knee-jerk reaction to feel villianized. Funny story, though. I'm a disabled, queer, transgender person in a conservative state with a shitty wxtended family. In a way, I am being actively villianized by the government and my family.

So I've had to walk the line of reminding myself "they aren't villianizing me, just marginalized people like me." It's a tough process to not slip into bad patterns when someone genuinely harms me. DBT is helpful for avoiding this type of black and white thinking, I find.

I want to touch on the topic of youe abuser now for a second. First, thanks for talking to me and asking questions. I know it's kinda weird to thank someone for that, but if your bias was truly unmanageable, you wouldn't be here. Or like. You'd be insulting me or something would you believe that some people genuinely do that on AMAs like this

MOST IMPORTANTLY:
Whether your abuser was hurt or not in the past did not "make them like this." Maybe it gave them traits, maybe NPD if you are correct. But trauma survivors are still responsible for their actions.

For years I tried to explain away what my dad did to me. Looked in diagnostic texts and studies and deluded myself into believing that was the answer. But here's the thing. Whether he has any sort of disorder or not... he chose to hurt me. You don't do that to a human, let alone a child, just because you're "like that."

One of the hardest pills to swallow in abuse recovery is that many abusers don't have or need a reason. They abuse you because they like power. Just like all the power-grabbing people in the world. They hurt you because they didn't give a shit about you enough to not.

It's long and grueling, but reframing your thoughts of your abuser is the one thing that helped me the most. Neither of us deserved the way we were treated, and even if our abusers were hurt by others, it's not our responsibility to feel sympathy about that. We can acknowledge, we can understand that it played a PART, but we can also say "at the end of the day... you chose to do this to me."

So, no. If I hurt someone badly, I don't want "sympathy." There was a time where I thought I did, but I realized later that it's just misdirected trauma response. I want people to feel sympathy for my existence, my experiences, the things that I cannot control—not any fucked up actions I chose to make afterwards.

Do you think there are levels of narcissism? To some extent, perhaps we all have traits. But, do you find yourself looking at others and thinking they are more affected than you?

We sort of all do? Keep in mind that personality disorders are just collections of symptoms caused by trauma reframing our brain. The reason they're common enough to put in the DSM is because the human brain already has default "paths" on how to react to trauma.

Lashing out or avoidng abandonment like thise with Borderline Personality Disorder do is an inherently human reaction.

Desperately trying to find a sense of control like those with Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder do, is an inherently human reaction.

Viewing ourselves as better—or worse, a lot of people forget that grandiosity just means you see yourself as "a lot" of or "unique" in something, so "I am uniquely bad :(" is still a valid NPD experience—in an attempt to regulate or understand what happened to us is an inherently human reaction.

As a narcissist, your only way to survive abuse or trauma might end up being "I'm better than them, so obviously they just envy me. That's why they're hurting me."

Or it might end up being "I am uniquely evil and bad, so they abused me because I am that way. I am the most hated person ever. Please feel bad for me."

The idea of being unimportant, that we were just so damn unimportant that they didn't care whether we were hurting or not... that's one of our worst nightmares. And sometimes that's something a kid can't survive knowing. That we were just a notch in a belt for the abuser—that we suffered for no reason. Some kids need a reason. And for those kids, their brain protects them.

We need to be important, because otherwise why do we exist?

NPD is just a section of a diagnostic book that shows you when natural human traits become maladaptive. So many disorders boil down to "too much/too little (blank)" and NPD is no exception. So yes, everyone sort of has narcissism, it's part of our inherent animalistic drive to survive.

If you could be rid of your NPD, would you be? Or, are there elements of it that are nicer? Do you feel genuinely confident in yourself or, does it feel fake and, always under threat?

Had to pause to process this question because it really ties into a lot of the trauma processing I've been doing lately and the feelings that I'm ruined because of my trauma as a kid.

I don't know. I genuinely don't know. Life would certainly be easier. I wouldn't wish NPD on anyone honestly. Yeah, it feels extra nice to be praised as a narcissist, but that's lnly because the baseline if our self esteem is nonexistent. Like when you eat shitty food and it tastes like a 5 star dinner because you're hungry, yaknow?

Plus I deal with so much guilt regarding me feeling good when people praise me since my Moral OCD decided to be a bitch and latch my obsessions onto my narcissism. Now I try to obsessively "humble" myself when I get "too happy with being praised" which obviously is not how that fucking works lmao. I'm just feeling the same amount of happiness that non-narcs get from praise, but for me it's water in a desert. Still, it feels like more so my brain hates me for it (people really need to talk about how trauma disorders interact with eachother more).

I'd say "under threat" is a pretty accurate term for multiple reasons. I could feel on top of the world, but the higher I get, the more dread I feel because I know one off-handed comment could make me fall flat on my face. All narcissists are fragile, deep down. We can't really escape it. I can't imagine who I would be if I was actually strong.

Therapy does help. I just have to hold on to that.

I have massive admiration for people who identify their own issues and try to work on them. Thank you for the opportunity to ask these questions. Obviously- feel free to ignore any that push too far. Also- they are based off of a person I believed was/ is a narcissist. They may not even be relevant to you.

No problem, and thanks for asking them! Sorry for the super rambly breakdown of your entire message though

---

What are the most annoying common misconceptions about NPD that you stumble upon on the internet? Do you know any movies, tv shows or books that depict characters with NPD accurately?

Most common misconceptions oh boy, want an essay? Just kidding.

Mostly that we supposedly see others as subhuman and step on every person in our way. Media basically Disney villain-ified a super nuanced topic about grandiosity and ran with it.

Also "narcissistic abuse" as a whole.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... there's a reason that almost every "narc abuse expert" is selling a class or a book. It taps into the inherent urge we have as trauma survivors to believe that our abuse "bad enough" by telling us "Your trauma was this super insidious types of abuse that is super severe and done by the evilest of people." As someone who has a cultish background, I can fully say that almost every "narc abuse" oriented space is essentially a cult.

Every "narc abuse tactic" they list has existed for decades before they even came up with the term itself. Gaslighting was once an important term. Now it's just boiled down to "when narcissists lie" to some people.

Almost every abuser will have hurt you in a way that qualifies for "narc abuse." That is for a reason. They give vague tactics that all controlling abusers (especially groomers) do and say "if you experienced this, you're in on our special group!"

Ironically, it breeds narcissism. I know multiple narcissists who only realized that they themselves have NPD after escaping the "narc abuse" mindset and realizing that they were drawn to it because it made them feel as if their trauma was special, validated.


OH gosh and don't get me started on "people with no empathy." Here's a tip: If someone tells you that having no empathy makes you evil, but they don't even know that there are multiple types of empathy... immediately discard their opinion.

Narcissists (often, but aren't required to) struggle with emotional/affective empathy and sometimes compassionate empathy. Studies show most of us can show high levels of cognitive empathy.

And overall, having empathy doesn't matter. Affective Empathy is just literally feeling someone's emotions, them spreading to you. Cognitive Empathy is logically understanding why the person feels that way. Compassionate Empathy is just the urge to help when someone is hurting.

But I can still try to understand even if I don't FEEL it.

I can still be respect it, even if I don't UNDERSTAND it.

I can still HELP you even if I don't have the urge to.

Because we all do things we don't "want" to do. That's life. I've had moments where I'm so emotionally exausted that I temporarily lose Compassionate Empathy, but if you are in need I'll still try my best. Or at least tell you that I care, even if I can't help yet.

Lack of empathy is not evil. Even those with no urge to show compassion can and do regularly. Not to mention that "not showing compassion" doesn't automatically mean "hurting someone." Sometimes, it's seeing that someone is crying and going "I have too much on my plate right now"


Anyway. So glad you asked about characters. I know of no good canonical narcissist representation. Buuuuut...

I really like Ride the Cyclone. And Ocean and Noel are two sides of the same narcissistic coin. (Sort of spoilers for the ending but no details, just character development)

Ocean wants desperately to be seen as better by others, to be useful, successful. She gets mad at those who don't constantly chase success, she positions herself as the "righteous one" in all situations. She's envious that she can't just enjoy her life as it is and lashes out because of that.

In the end? She realizes that perfection was not the goal. That she doesn't have to be "important" to be admired, nor admired to be loved. She takes her role as leader of the group, and instead of using it as a badge to feel better about herself, she uses it as a badge to help the people. A true leader.

On the flip side, Noel is obsessed with tragedy. He moans and complains about his life as the only gay man in Uranium (which is a traumatic experience obviously, but the musical makes it clear that he's WALLOWING in the grief, not processing it), and daydreams of living a life of sin, drugs, alcohol, sex, all to die tragically at the end. He desperately wants to be important, even if it's just to be "tragic enough" to be noticed.

And in the end, his lesson is similar to Ocean's.

Grandiosity shows in many forms. Ocean is a stereotype. Noel is not. But if you look at them both side by side, they have the same issue—and the same solution.

But yeah Ocean's last speech and parts in the finale song made me cry what of it

 

[X-sanguinate86]

Interesting but for me inability to have affective empathy is a pretty big problem. Thanks for sharing. I wish you all the best.

 

[Forever Sleep]

LONG MESSAGE ALERT

So, you definitely can't tell if someone is a narcissist just from whether they are selfish and gaslit you. Unfortunately, media has told us that those two things coincide with NPD, when they've existed in abuse for years and narcissists aren't really more likely to do it than any run-of-the-mill controlling abuser.

I did have a tendency to lie when I was younger, but they were mostly to make myself seem more important. I would often one-up others because the moment I was in the presence of someone with more impressive experiences than me, I felt inferior—especially since I haven't actually had that many normal human experiences to begin with. I never even step foot in a high school!

I have met those who either have NPD or narcissistic traits tha do lie in the way you experienced, but the main variable wasn't the NPD, but the privilege they experienced that enabled them to act that way. Privilege corrupts any human, narcissist or not.

I've been a total bitch as a teen and I definitely lied and likely did minor gaslighting at least once. But more so because I was too afraid of the consequences of my actions, so I tried to convince then it never happened. Sort of a tactic to avoid responsibility and the helplessness you can feel when faced with the fact that you hurt someone?

I never really gaslit for fun, it was always to avoid reality as a whole. I was the KING to denial as a kid

As for believing the lies, it depends. I didn't believe most of the "one-upping" lies I did to look talented.

There were, however, lies that I would try to convince myself were real. When I fucked up friendships, sometimes it would be "they started it" or something. You don't genuinely believe it, it's not psychosis... you just... bury the truth in your mind and refuse to look at it. Deep down you know it's there. Schrödinger's truth?

This is actually an experience I have met other narcissists who do not relate to this, by the way. NPD presents in many ways, some that most would never believe in NPD. My constant need to feel useful and feel like my life isn't stagnating is a current symptom of my NPD now that I'm less snobby, for example.


There's a sort of spectrum of consciousness here. We're almost always aware to a certain extent, save for a few exceptions.

Those are:

• Young, developing narcissists (teens and kids often have a harder time controling actions, and can fall into patterns faster because their brainnis more survival oriented)
• Narcissists who are still currently victims in an abusive situation (since NPD is a survival mechanism, this can make it harder for the person to keep themselves grounded enough to recognize ally from foe)
• People who grew up in/exist in an environment that discourages taking accountability for actions (e.g. one of the many reasons autism is comorbid with narcissistic traits is because some "autism moms" will let their autistic sons get off scott-free for everything—then that combined with the emotional/medical neglect and trauma those kids experience with a mom like that, it can make the kid more likely to develop NPD as he grows)
• Maybe a few other examples I can't think of?

Over all, most of us are aware to a certain extent by the time we reach adulthood, even if we are subconsciously or consciously burying the truth in an attempt to not question our very being. It's a trauma response.

And I want to specify, NPD doesn't actually coincide with a higher rate of abusers like media claims.

When I say "we are aware," I don't mean "when we abuse," I mean "when we do any sort of shitty action." Most often times it's just showing a snobby, self-righteous attitude (if the narcissist has that trait, as not all do), or something benign but selfish.

Oh and another important thing is to understand how NPD works. It's caused by the fact that we essentially have no self esteem. It's an empty jar that we fill with the praise of others or empty with the criticisms of others. Our self-esteem only exists in relation to others and how we are perceived, we cannot regulate normally.

So we subconsciously try to make ourselves seem "important" in hopes that others see us that way. Or we genuinely fall into the delusion that we are that way (like I said, usually happens with adolescents).

If a narcissist does choose to abuse, though, the likelihood is that they abuse for the same reasons as all non-narc abusers. Power.


I do have the inherent knee-jerk reaction to feel villianized. Funny story, though. I'm a disabled, queer, transgender person in a conservative state with a shitty wxtended family. In a way, I am being actively villianized by the government and my family.

So I've had to walk the line of reminding myself "they aren't villianizing me, just marginalized people like me." It's a tough process to not slip into bad patterns when someone genuinely harms me. DBT is helpful for avoiding this type of black and white thinking, I find.

I want to touch on the topic of youe abuser now for a second. First, thanks for talking to me and asking questions. I know it's kinda weird to thank someone for that, but if your bias was truly unmanageable, you wouldn't be here. Or like. You'd be insulting me or something would you believe that some people genuinely do that on AMAs like this

MOST IMPORTANTLY:
Whether your abuser was hurt or not in the past did not "make them like this." Maybe it gave them traits, maybe NPD if you are correct. But trauma survivors are still responsible for their actions.

For years I tried to explain away what my dad did to me. Looked in diagnostic texts and studies and deluded myself into believing that was the answer. But here's the thing. Whether he has any sort of disorder or not... he chose to hurt me. You don't do that to a human, let alone a child, just because you're "like that."

One of the hardest pills to swallow in abuse recovery is that many abusers don't have or need a reason. They abuse you because they like power. Just like all the power-grabbing people in the world. They hurt you because they didn't give a shit about you enough to not.

It's long and grueling, but reframing your thoughts of your abuser is the one thing that helped me the most. Neither of us deserved the way we were treated, and even if our abusers were hurt by others, it's not our responsibility to feel sympathy about that. We can acknowledge, we can understand that it played a PART, but we can also say "at the end of the day... you chose to do this to me."

So, no. If I hurt someone badly, I don't want "sympathy." There was a time where I thought I did, but I realized later that it's just misdirected trauma response. I want people to feel sympathy for my existence, my experiences, the things that I cannot control—not any fucked up actions I chose to make afterwards.



We sort of all do? Keep in mind that personality disorders are just collections of symptoms caused by trauma reframing our brain. The reason they're common enough to put in the DSM is because the human brain already has default "paths" on how to react to trauma.

Lashing out or avoidng abandonment like thise with Borderline Personality Disorder do is an inherently human reaction.

Desperately trying to find a sense of control like those with Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder do, is an inherently human reaction.

Viewing ourselves as better—or worse, a lot of people forget that grandiosity just means you see yourself as "a lot" of or "unique" in something, so "I am uniquely bad :(" is still a valid NPD experience—in an attempt to regulate or understand what happened to us is an inherently human reaction.

As a narcissist, your only way to survive abuse or trauma might end up being "I'm better than them, so obviously they just envy me. That's why they're hurting me."

Or it might end up being "I am uniquely evil and bad, so they abused me because I am that way. I am the most hated person ever. Please feel bad for me."

The idea of being unimportant, that we were just so damn unimportant that they didn't care whether we were hurting or not... that's one of our worst nightmares. And sometimes that's something a kid can't survive knowing. That we were just a notch in a belt for the abuser—that we suffered for no reason. Some kids need a reason. And for those kids, their brain protects them.

We need to be important, because otherwise why do we exist?

NPD is just a section of a diagnostic book that shows you when natural human traits become maladaptive. So many disorders boil down to "too much/too little (blank)" and NPD is no exception. So yes, everyone sort of has narcissism, it's part of our inherent animalistic drive to survive.


Had to pause to process this question because it really ties into a lot of the trauma processing I've been doing lately and the feelings that I'm ruined because of my trauma as a kid.

I don't know. I genuinely don't know. Life would certainly be easier. I wouldn't wish NPD on anyone honestly. Yeah, it feels extra nice to be praised as a narcissist, but that's lnly because the baseline if our self esteem is nonexistent. Like when you eat shitty food and it tastes like a 5 star dinner because you're hungry, yaknow?

Plus I deal with so much guilt regarding me feeling good when people praise me since my Moral OCD decided to be a bitch and latch my obsessions onto my narcissism. Now I try to obsessively "humble" myself when I get "too happy with being praised" which obviously is not how that fucking works lmao. I'm just feeling the same amount of happiness that non-narcs get from praise, but for me it's water in a desert. Still, it feels like more so my brain hates me for it (people really need to talk about how trauma disorders interact with eachother more).

I'd say "under threat" is a pretty accurate term for multiple reasons. I could feel on top of the world, but the higher I get, the more dread I feel because I know one off-handed comment could make me fall flat on my face. All narcissists are fragile, deep down. We can't really escape it. I can't imagine who I would be if I was actually strong.

Therapy does help. I just have to hold on to that.


No problem, and thanks for asking them! Sorry for the super rambly breakdown of your entire message though

---

Most common misconceptions oh boy, want an essay? Just kidding.

Mostly that we supposedly see others as subhuman and step on every person in our way. Media basically Disney villain-ified a super nuanced topic about grandiosity and ran with it.

Also "narcissistic abuse" as a whole.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... there's a reason that almost every "narc abuse expert" is selling a class or a book. It taps into the inherent urge we have as trauma survivors to believe that our abuse "bad enough" by telling us "Your trauma was this super insidious types of abuse that is super severe and done by the evilest of people." As someone who has a cultish background, I can fully say that almost every "narc abuse" oriented space is essentially a cult.

Every "narc abuse tactic" they list has existed for decades before they even came up with the term itself. Gaslighting was once an important term. Now it's just boiled down to "when narcissists lie" to some people.

Almost every abuser will have hurt you in a way that qualifies for "narc abuse." That is for a reason. They give vague tactics that all controlling abusers (especially groomers) do and say "if you experienced this, you're in on our special group!"

Ironically, it breeds narcissism. I know multiple narcissists who only realized that they themselves have NPD after escaping the "narc abuse" mindset and realizing that they were drawn to it because it made them feel as if their trauma was special, validated.


OH gosh and don't get me started on "people with no empathy." Here's a tip: If someone tells you that having no empathy makes you evil, but they don't even know that there are multiple types of empathy... immediately discard their opinion.

Narcissists (often, but aren't required to) struggle with emotional/affective empathy and sometimes compassionate empathy. Studies show most of us can show high levels of cognitive empathy.

And overall, having empathy doesn't matter. Affective Empathy is just literally feeling someone's emotions, them spreading to you. Cognitive Empathy is logically understanding why the person feels that way. Compassionate Empathy is just the urge to help when someone is hurting.

But I can still try to understand even if I don't FEEL it.

I can still be respect it, even if I don't UNDERSTAND it.

I can still HELP you even if I don't have the urge to.

Because we all do things we don't "want" to do. That's life. I've had moments where I'm so emotionally exausted that I temporarily lose Compassionate Empathy, but if you are in need I'll still try my best. Or at least tell you that I care, even if I can't help yet.

Lack of empathy is not evil. Even those with no urge to show compassion can and do regularly. Not to mention that "not showing compassion" doesn't automatically mean "hurting someone." Sometimes, it's seeing that someone is crying and going "I have too much on my plate right now"


Anyway. So glad you asked about characters. I know of no good canonical narcissist representation. Buuuuut...

I really like Ride the Cyclone. And Ocean and Noel are two sides of the same narcissistic coin. (Sort of spoilers for the ending but no details, just character development)

Ocean wants desperately to be seen as better by others, to be useful, successful. She gets mad at those who don't constantly chase success, she positions herself as the "righteous one" in all situations. She's envious that she can't just enjoy her life as it is and lashes out because of that.

In the end? She realizes that perfection was not the goal. That she doesn't have to be "important" to be admired, nor admired to be loved. She takes her role as leader of the group, and instead of using it as a badge to feel better about herself, she uses it as a badge to help the people. A true leader.

On the flip side, Noel is obsessed with tragedy. He moans and complains about his life as the only gay man in Uranium (which is a traumatic experience obviously, but the musical makes it clear that he's WALLOWING in the grief, not processing it), and daydreams of living a life of sin, drugs, alcohol, sex, all to die tragically at the end. He desperately wants to be important, even if it's just to be "tragic enough" to be noticed.

And in the end, his lesson is similar to Ocean's.

Grandiosity shows in many forms. Ocean is a stereotype. Noel is not. But if you look at them both side by side, they have the same issue—and the same solution.

But yeah Ocean's last speech and parts in the finale song made me cry what of it

Thank you for replying in such detail. It's interesting hearing your perspective. I hope that things feel more settled for you. I suppose what you've expressed has thrown up more questions in a way- if you don't mind...

Do you think a narcissist's own sense of worth can ever be repaired? How would that happen? Would it still be reliant on the approval of others to an extent or, could a person learn to truthfully be ok with themselves?

It just seems so ironic really- in a sad way. I could of course be wrong about the person I believe/d to be a narcissist but- listening to them, you'd never believe they had a problem with self worth! It is hard to believe that is all an act to mask a fear of being inferior. They were very convincing though.

I suppose I'm curious though. Say- when you start something- I imagine you must begin with some confidence in yourself? From there on though, do you need reassurance and praise? I mean- I expect we all do to an extent. But, if you don't receive it- what happens? Do you start to doubt yourself?

How you described it is almost like an addiction to praise. I've felt like I was under the control of various addictive behaviours in the past. Borderline eating disorders and, likely limerence. So- I can sort of relate to having a desperate need for something yet, never really feeling satiated. It was horrible. I can imagine that would be horrible when attached to your sense of self worth.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

Interesting but for me inability to have affective empathy is a pretty big problem. Thanks for sharing. I wish you all the best.

I used to have Affective Empathy as a kid (but very little Cognitive) and all it did was make me cry when others cried, or feel anger when others felt anger, etc.

Affective Empathy is not infallible, and you may accidentally "feel" a feeling that the other person isn't feeling because you misidentified their emotions visually—and considering I have autism, that happened a lot.

Affective Empathy is a pack survival mechanism, you're not literally reading people's minds.

I will always prefer lacking Affective Empathy to lacking Cognitive Empathy. If you lack Cognitive Empathy, it's harder to truly understand humans unless they act like you (speaking from experience).

Society has a grave lack of Cognitive Empathy currently... which sucks because for most people it is actually one of the only types of empathy one can "strengthen" with "practice" (like researching human behavior, meeting new people, etc)

Also I actually don't completely lack Affective, I just so far only feel it for some animals and also one special person in my life! I call that a lack because in practice.. it kinda is.

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

Thank you for replying in such detail. It's interesting hearing your perspective. I hope that things feel more settled for you. I suppose what you've expressed has thrown up more questions in a way- if you don't mind...

Do you think a narcissist's own sense of worth can ever be repaired? How would that happen? Would it still be reliant on the approval of others to an extent or, could a person learn to truthfully be ok with themselves?

It just seems so ironic really- in a sad way. I could of course be wrong about the person I believe/d to be a narcissist but- listening to them, you'd never believe they had a problem with self worth! It is hard to believe that is all an act to mask a fear of being inferior. They were very convincing though.

Personality disorders can go into remission, but that's moreso related to the listed diagnostic criteria. From what I understand, a narcissist cannot fully "fix" their self esteem? Maybe hypothetically it's possible for those who have narcissistic traits, but not full NPD? If it's possible for NPD to be fully fixed I'd find that cure like some of yall look for N in South America i stg

I know therapy can help. Processing childhood trauma and helping the brain get out of survival mode can stabilize self esteem SLIGHTLY, but you still have to rely on self-compassion/self-love and DBT exercises basically your whole life. It helps to have a support systen who knows your struggles, especially since feeling safe can be the best way for a narcissist to actually mitigate the self-esteem fluctuation.

I suppose I'm curious though. Say- when you start something- I imagine you must begin with some confidence in yourself? From there on though, do you need reassurance and praise? I mean- I expect we all do to an extent. But, if you don't receive it- what happens? Do you start to doubt yourself?

How you described it is almost like an addiction to praise. I've felt like I was under the control of various addictive behaviours in the past. Borderline eating disorders and, likely limerence. So- I can sort of relate to having a desperate need for something yet, never really feeling satiated. It was horrible. I can imagine that would be horrible when attached to your sense of self worth.

I tend to overestimate my abilities sometimes. Maybe set a too-strict art deadline.

I have done things like post work-in-progress pictures places and gotten no reactions whatsoever, or tried to share art with family and been told "later," and immediately just lost so much of my drive to even finish it. Even if I wasn't fishing for praise, feeling "ignored" can have the same effect as not being praised. Almost always worse, actually.

And then I start to question whether I should even try, because "what if it's not unique enough when it's finished and they react the same way." Avoiding the pain by UNDERestimating myself instead. I've quit too many damn projects because of that.

And then next time I try, I'm more likely to repeatedly get art block or underestimate myself until I get some sort of praise that levels myself out again.

It is definitely an addiction of sorts. Just like OCD is. Just like anorexia is. Just like mpst personality disorders are. I think people forget how addictions work so they miss the fact that many disorders qualify as one yaknow? It's cool you noticed.

It is horrible, and thank you for understanding your stuff sounds horrible to deal with too, I hope it's been manageable lately (or gets better if not). Brains suck.

 

[Greyhawk]

Most common misconceptions oh boy, want an essay? Just kidding.

Mostly that we supposedly see others as subhuman and step on every person in our way. Media basically Disney villain-ified a super nuanced topic about grandiosity and ran with it.

Also "narcissistic abuse" as a whole.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... there's a reason that almost every "narc abuse expert" is selling a class or a book. It taps into the inherent urge we have as trauma survivors to believe that our abuse "bad enough" by telling us "Your trauma was this super insidious types of abuse that is super severe and done by the evilest of people." As someone who has a cultish background, I can fully say that almost every "narc abuse" oriented space is essentially a cult.

Every "narc abuse tactic" they list has existed for decades before they even came up with the term itself. Gaslighting was once an important term. Now it's just boiled down to "when narcissists lie" to some people.

Almost every abuser will have hurt you in a way that qualifies for "narc abuse." That is for a reason. They give vague tactics that all controlling abusers (especially groomers) do and say "if you experienced this, you're in on our special group!"

Ironically, it breeds narcissism. I know multiple narcissists who only realized that they themselves have NPD after escaping the "narc abuse" mindset and realizing that they were drawn to it because it made them feel as if their trauma was special, validated.

Thanks for the thorough response!

I'm glad I'm not the only one to have noticed these exact same things. I'm interested in personality disorders and I've been bombarded with dumbass content that attributes every type of abuse to NPD or BPD. It's not that the abuse they are talking about isn't something that people with NPD can do more often. But they explain it in a way like it's specific to NPD and all of them do it.

It's part of larger issue of oversimplification in pop psychology. You can sometimes see it go both ways, what I mean is that the same mental illnesses are demonized and downplayed. For example I often see people talk about bipolar like it's not a real disease, "it's just mood swings, everyone has them." I've also seen a lot of stuff about "bipolar abuse" and how all bipolar people are dangerous lunatics.

 

[derpyderpins]

I developed the traits young due to various types of abuse and neglect, and I finally realized I had it in my mid-teens.

My journey of healing and understanding myself was hard and I found myself turning into a doormat at times to avoid expressing any sort of non-humble trait. I essentially tried to fix my NPD with no therapy, and no realistic sympathetic depiction or discussion of narcissism, so it led to a lot of internalized issues (like worsening Moral OCD).

I tried to bring it up to a therapist, but she basically said I was "too nice" to be a narcissist and blamed these traits I was struggling with on another disorder I have. I believed her for a while and dissociated harder from my narcissism—therefore repressing and ignoring the unresolved trauma that caused it—for years.

I finally allowed myself to acknowledge it when I started talking to more people with stigmatized disorders like NPD, ASPD, AvPD, etc. Took while to go from "I have BPD" to "I have BPD with narcissistic traits" to " I have both BPD and NPD and that's okay" but I got there.

While I don't have NPD, I can definitely relate to this in my (ongoing) attempts to understand my neurodiversity. Although, I will say, "Moral OCD" is a new term for me and fits me to a "T" with my overexaggerated and uncontrollable guilt. My psychiatrists' throwing OCD in with my diagnosis often feels like a bit of an outlier but from that angle it makes more sense.

But beyond that, I "masked" and compensated for over a decade before even considering I had real issues (I assumed my executive disfunction was solely a personal failure and personality flaw.) But my status as "high functioning" still leads people to not take diagnosis seriously, even though I now have plenty of evidence of it.

So I guess my first thing I'd like to say is just thanks for talking about your story. I had a few questions/topics that I thought of while reading this thread that you can feel free to address or leave to float there.

First, it strikes me that a lot of the issue with understanding the difference between the disorder and generally shitty behavior is similar to how people can be "depressed" without having medical "depression." "Narcissism," intentionally or otherwise, is used in that descriptive, non-medical way. It's most unfortunate when trying to recover or explain your issues to people. How hard was that for you in coming to terms with your diagnosis?

Second, on the topic of lying and being "aware" of bad behavior, how much of the behavior would you say comes from a place of fear? I was a very gifted liar as a preteen-teenager, but every lie I remember telling was because I felt cornered or scared of something, in a way young people shouldn't have to.

Last, it sounds like you've made some real progress with learning to live with the disorder. I'm sure there are setbacks, though. Do you have any advice for when people feel like they just clawed their way a bit out of a pit only to be knocked right back down to where they were before?

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

Thanks for the thorough response!

I'm glad I'm not the only one to have noticed these exact same things. I'm interested in personality disorders and I've been bombarded with dumbass content that attributes every type of abuse to NPD or BPD. It's not that the abuse they are talking about isn't something that people with NPD can do more often. But they explain it in a way like it's specific to NPD and all of them do it.

It's part of larger issue of oversimplification in pop psychology. You can sometimes see it go both ways, what I mean is that the same mental illnesses are demonized and downplayed. For example I often see people talk about bipolar like it's not a real disease, "it's just mood swings, everyone has them." I've also seen a lot of stuff about "bipolar abuse" and how all bipolar people are dangerous lunatics.

I honestly haven't found any evidence that narcissists do certain types of abuse more, but I'm not opposed to the possibility from the viewpoint of "our brain and neurodivergencies might affect what we choose to do if we choose to do it," not that narcs are more likely to abuse as a whole.

Like, I've been abused by multiple autistic people, and I have noticed a pattern in "types" of abuse there, but people definitely need to look into causation versus correlation.

Maybe narcissists who do choose to abuse don't follow that pattern due to NPD, but instead do to the fact that certain types of abuse are more likely to form NPD, so a narcissist who chooses to abuse may take from what they know of abuse to reenact onto others. That could apply to different neurodivergencies too, and would explain the autism patterning since trauma is common with autists (I also have to acknowledge my own bias here since the sample size of autists in my life has been so high, and that can apply to other people's sample sizes of narcissists too)

I'd love more research into this, but I can't trust that the people doing it would be unbiased and not push the studies the way pop psychology popularized on purpose. I've met a few people with Cluster B PDs who want to go into mental health research, so I can only hope that they're the ones frontrunning any studies.

While I don't have NPD, I can definitely relate to this in my (ongoing) attempts to understand my neurodiversity. Although, I will say, "Moral OCD" is a new term for me and fits me to a "T" with my overexaggerated and uncontrollable guilt. My psychiatrists' throwing OCD in with my diagnosis often feels like a bit of an outlier but from that angle it makes more sense.

But beyond that, I "masked" and compensated for over a decade before even considering I had real issues (I assumed my executive disfunction was solely a personal failure and personality flaw.) But my status as "high functioning" still leads people to not take diagnosis seriously, even though I now have plenty of evidence of it.

OCD just implies obsessions and compulsions. There are millions of presentations. Moral OCD unfortunately is hard to find info about online, because most Moral OCD is associated with Religious OCD, and that leaves very few resources for those of us with a Moral type that isn't related to religion.

Rumination can also be a compulsion, and people forget that. That's one way OCD can look way less noticeable to some.

Sometimes my Moral OCD "tells" me something (the Obsession), so I try to push it away.

But when I try to push it away, my Moral OCD basically "tells" me "you're hiding the evil part of yourself by trying to ignore the thoughts."

So then I have to listen to the thoughts over and over (ruminating, the Compulsion), trying to fix them, otherwise I feel even more evil.

So I guess my first thing I'd like to say is just thanks for talking about your story. I had a few questions/topics that I thought of while reading this thread that you can feel free to address or leave to float there.

First, it strikes me that a lot of the issue with understanding the difference between the disorder and generally shitty behavior is similar to how people can be "depressed" without having medical "depression." "Narcissism," intentionally or otherwise, is used in that descriptive, non-medical way. It's most unfortunate when trying to recover or explain your issues to people. How hard was that for you in coming to terms with your diagnosis?

It is sort of like the Depressed vs. Depression thing, but in a very specific (kind of ironic) way.

People can be depressed without Persistent Depressive or Major Depressive. That is because those disorders are chronic. Acute depression is often a reaction to isolation, loss, etc.

The thing is that some people say "I'm so depressed" to mean "I'm sad :(" which completely butchers the idea of depression. Sort of like saying "omg I'm sooo bipolar." Misuse of terms like this is part of something called pop psychology, and the misuse of the term narcissist is part of the same thing! So yeah, you connecting those two things was right on the money.


It's hard to explain how I felt about my diagnosis, because the discovery came as an emotionally numb teenager. I "felt" happy that I knew what my issue was and "could fix it."

Looking back, the fact that my immediate reaction was NOT to process my emotions anout the discovery, guilt, and loss that I experienced, but instead to "fix it myself"... was literally a consequence of my NPD. I was too afraid to be vulnerable, even to myself.

Nowadays I'm really trying to actually think about how it makes me feel. Trying. I've been slowly realizing that a lot of my suicidality was due to existing this way, but I was too scared to adk myself "why" so it had just made me more numb.

I've experienced a lot of stuff, I literally have physical chronic pain, but the NPD—constantly being hyperaware of other people's views on me, the compulsion to change myself to fit what would make me most likeable, the agonized feeling when I feel ignored, having a low threshold for criticism, and even having problems taking care of my physical health unless someone actively "wants me to get better"—is so much more painful most of the time.

And then I get envious of others for not having NPD, which inherently is a symptom of NPD (envy is a criteria) so it feels like I can never process my thoughts on it without feeling worse.

Second, on the topic of lying and being "aware" of bad behavior, how much of the behavior would you say comes from a place of fear? I was a very gifted liar as a preteen-teenager, but every lie I remember telling was because I felt cornered or scared of something, in a way young people shouldn't have to.

Last, it sounds like you've made some real progress with learning to live with the disorder. I'm sure there are setbacks, though. Do you have any advice for when people feel like they just clawed their way a bit out of a pit only to be knocked right back down to where they were before?

It was definitely fear. I think that's sort of the root cause of all personality disorders. You don't get traumatized enough to have one without feeling fear, after all.

Uhhh as for advice.

I guess just be compassionate to yourself, but balance guilt with accountability.
DBT exercises can help with that.

Try art.
I know people say that way too much, but even just writing all your darkest thoughts over and over until the paper rips or the canvas is completely black from the overlapping letters is something that can help.

Find a community, if you can.
Discord has been my lifeline. Here too, actually (if any narcs on this server relate to this & want to start a sort of support thread, I'll always be open, but these tips sort of apply to traumatized people as a whole).

I think tips are hard to give, because it sort of ends up being "do as I say, not as I do." So many of my tips I have a hard time pulling off myself, but I've seen what they've done for others that I care about.

The main thing that helped me is religion, the routine and community of Shabbat, the food and rituals of Judaism, the roots and culture of my Ashkenazi lineage, and the way the witchy magic that I relied on as a kid can be transitioned into Jewish folk magic that goes back years and years. But I know that a lot of yall either have religious trauma or aren't a fan of religion as a whole.

But uh to end it off:
To anyone feeling hopeless... those emotions aren't wrong.
Feel them, but don't let them consume you—easier said than done, I get it, but just try to do tiny steps, even if they don't immediately feel helpful.
There is no miracle cure for most, so don't strive for perfection.
You don't deserve what you're going through.

That's all I can think of for now. If I have new tips I might post them on my profile later?

 

[me_when_:D]

It's actually not as rare as one might think.

I have experience with narcissistic traits of my own and AuDHD. From my research, this realization happens almost exclusively in the worst times, like it did for me during my first major depressive episode. I am *kind of* successful socially, but crucially, status and competence vise I am a complete failure due to AuDHD.
Removing AuDHD removes failure, which removes almost forced self-reflection (hey, and remove from that autism trying to keep integrity of worldview).
NPD has several traits that make it hard to self-reflect corretly, while also trying to persuade you from seeing flaws in one's self.
It's really tricky and takes A LOT of effort to do (considering how sensitive we can be to criticism), which is why almost only major mental health crisis can give enough motivation not just to try to understand one's self, but also do it honestly.

All of this makes it rare. Special even, in it's own fucked up way. Stars have to align. (altho, I can only really speak about my age demographic of 18-30, maybe age helps accumulate enough evidence for it to be hard to deny own flaws).

The dsm-5 criteria seem to apply to me, but after seeing a text-book narcissist asshole, I feel like there is more to the story than just the criteria.
I sort of managed to brute force my way out of the traits that push away people the most, making it managable and sort of self-contained for now.
It's kind of a mix of carefully picking safe things to identify myself as, being emotionally detached in sensitive and dangerous things and openning up the rest that lets people trust me.

(honest to god, I do not remember the point I was hoping to make, apart from the thing being rare lol)

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

I have experience with narcissistic traits of my own and AuDHD. From my research, this realization happens almost exclusively in the worst times, like it did for me during my first major depressive episode. I am *kind of* successful socially, but crucially, status and competence vise I am a complete failure due to AuDHD.
Removing AuDHD removes failure, which removes almost forced self-reflection (hey, and remove from that autism trying to keep integrity of worldview).
NPD has several traits that make it hard to self-reflect corretly, while also trying to persuade you from seeing flaws in one's self.
It's really tricky and takes A LOT of effort to do (considering how sensitive we can be to criticism), which is why almost only major mental health crisis can give enough motivation not just to try to understand one's self, but also do it honestly.

I mean, your point that it being "almost only caused by mental health crisis" makes it rare kind of falls apart when you realize that all narcissists are trauma survivors, and the comorbidity of C-PTSD with NPD is higher than people realize. Mental crisis galore, just internalized

Also, I understand how your experience shaped your views, but... I didn't figure out during a mental crisis.

It was just during a sort of low point, nowhere near the crisis I've experienced in the past or even recently. I've also been in the Cluster B community for years, and met plenty of narcissists who realized in completely different ways—especially because NPD presents so differently in others.

Many people I've met have been part of marginalized groups who have to internalize their traits to not essentially get shot.

I have seen articles that back your points, but once I looked farther into them, almost every single one had bias. Most only studied cis white men, which makes sense why they got that result...


Anyway, I do heavily relate to what you said about AuDHD and narcissism, but, again, there's a flaw in your wording.

Unfortunately, you saying that "removing AuDHD removes failure" sort of ignores comorbid conditions, nature vs. nurture, and especially societal issues?

Some people are forced into failure because of their skin color, gender, sex, or other neurodivergencies. If failure is what narcissists need to discover themselves, then surely there are many self-aware narcs in less privileged groups?

To touch on another thing, autism doesn't have a "strong sense of justice" or "integrity of world view." Us autists tend to be morally stubborn, but that can actually make us less integral in world view if we grow up in isolated areas.

Both sides of my family are majority autistic—one side are obsessed with Trump, one person on that side is a child predator, at least one other person enables him. Both autistic.

All of this makes it rare. Special even, in it's own fucked up way. Stars have to align. (altho, I can only really speak about my age demographic of 18-30, maybe age helps accumulate enough evidence for it to be hard to deny own flaws).

The dsm-5 criteria seem to apply to me, but after seeing a text-book narcissist asshole, I feel like there is more to the story than just the criteria.
I sort of managed to brute force my way out of the traits that push away people the most, making it managable and sort of self-contained for now.
It's kind of a mix of carefully picking safe things to identify myself as, being emotionally detached in sensitive and dangerous things and openning up the rest that lets people trust me.

(honest to god, I do not remember the point I was hoping to make, apart from the thing being rare lol)

My own discovery was at about 15-16, and as I said in other messages, it sort of sent me into a spiral of mental self-harm and moral obsession without even realizing. What you are describing you doing is exactly what I did, so I just want to say: be careful.

Obviously I can't dictate your life, but that method only lasts so long.

Oh and also, there is more to the criteria! In the DSM-5-TR, there is at least 1-2 pages of further discussion. And people still criticize how the criteria focuses more on outward traits, and not internal struggles, sort of buying into the stereotypes/not rocking the boat.

There's a "rewritten" criteria posted some time ago by a narc on Tumblr, and I find that it feels a lot more accurate (and matches the actual science, too). It helped me really put into perspective how much NPD was affecting my life and how constantly I was going into fight/flight/freeze/fawn mode, so if you think it might be what you're looking for too I can send it?

 

[stardewwindceres]

I just wanted to say thanks for doing this. Idk if the 1 person I deal with is really a narcissist or has NPD, but she is definitely abusive in an emotionally manipulative way that pop psych attributes to "narc abuse" Narc or not, doesn't matter and maybe I'll never know, but an abuser is an abuser and that's a choice they make to act that way and do those things. That's cruelty, not a personality. She does do the thing where she causes the problem and fixes it and seems to live off of the praise and accolades. So maybe she has no self-esteem or has to feel superior. But I am sick of everyone overusing words- like you and others have said, bipolar for having a mood ot being depressed because they are upset their football team lost, or every abuser being a narc, or calling someone who is different autistic, shit like that. On another note, I don't know if I have a personality disorder, but I am super curious about DBT. Thanks again:)

 

[NormallyNeurotic]

I just wanted to say thanks for doing this. Idk if the 1 person I deal with is really a narcissist or has NPD, but she is definitely abusive in an emotionally manipulative way that pop psych attributes to "narc abuse" Narc or not, doesn't matter and maybe I'll never know, but an abuser is an abuser and that's a choice they make to act that way and do those things. That's cruelty, not a personality. She does do the thing where she causes the problem and fixes it and seems to live off of the praise and accolades. So maybe she has no self-esteem or has to feel superior. But I am sick of everyone overusing words- like you and others have said, bipolar for having a mood ot being depressed because they are upset their football team lost, or every abuser being a narc, or calling someone who is different autistic, shit like that. On another note, I don't know if I have a personality disorder, but I am super curious about DBT. Thanks again:)

I love the way you worded this. Hoping the best for you

Also, DBT is just super useful for lots of things. It actually helped a lot of my internal autistic struggles as well as my narcissistic and borderline ones. DBT therapists can be hard to find, and some aren't the best, but DBT workbooks and guides and sites have been my lifeline.