Venting I despise that we have to kill in order to live

[R. A.]

....

 

[makethepainstop]

I do understand your pain, this world can be a chamber of horrors for so many many people. I wish I could think of something clever to help you but I'm afraid I am just not that smart. I do hope you find peace and comfort in the future.

 

[Hollowillow]

...but also that my body may prefer me to be eating the products of horrible animal slavery. Sometimes. Others doing so seems to be killing me. Some context, and sorry for the rambling:

After my best friend CTB nearly six years ago, I completely unexpectedly began a very quick transition to veganism. I'd made some conscious dietary changes before but never anything like this. I just became so excruciatingly aware of how everything is always suffering, and questioned what I right I had to cause more so that I could be alive? A former friend's comment helped me work it out at the time by pointing out the system is closed; if I malnourish myself, then instead, both I and the people in my life who care for me suffer. Great. Fucking cool, no way out. So I just quit animal products, and did so in a country where it was quite a challenge as it wasn't a very known concept and stuck to my guns over 90% of the time, and it was fine. I barely noticed any difference in myself, if at all.

After some time though I abandoned capital v "Veganism" as I came to feel that the reason I was doing it - minimization of harm and suffering - was not always the result of the vegan choice. One prime example was speaking to this fellow vegan traveller in Central America about this prepacked thing of mixed nuts she was eating. I was always conscious of the global aspect so would eat things like eggs in countries where I saw the chickens laying them running around. She instead "didn't consider eggs food" so instead chose to buy this product grown in drought-stricken California most likely, contained in this awful plastic that will be around for a thousand years, which was shipped on an airplane spewing emissions then carted to the place we were. And this is somehow better for all life? Sure, lady.

I later learned the real definition of the practice as set out by the organization that coined the term and the principles is more nuanced, and that she was arguably making the non-vegan choice. But it's all splitting hairs, labels, and whatever. So now I say for convenience's sake, I'm a vegetarian who generally eats vegan, besides animal byproducts I can get from either wholesome sourced or food that would otherwise be wasted.

However.

As I've already written about here, I have some health problems involving the...gastro-intestinal system. Part of this is having bowel movements of a type that won't destroy my ass due to excessive hardness or loseness. I'm also really thin and have lost weight lately. Well, when you eat this kind of diet, it is fucking hard to eat well and not get a shit ton more fibre relative to the amount of calories you should be having, and this has caused and is currently causing problems, I feel. I can just load up on stuff like peanut butter only to such an extent as eating lots of even good fats tends to make me feel nauseous and bloated. So I've occasionally been buying eggs from a couple of vendors at a nearby farmers' market since this season began. But what have I been noticing? I am often getting sick either because of, or coincidentally right after almost every time, eating them. Like, a day of significant stomach pain, chills, intense tiredness, and destructive dump-type-sick. Are the eggs contaminated? Legislation here is they have to be graded to be sold even at a market which includes washing, so I can't imagine this is it. Has my body decided eggs are just now not acceptable? I've been eating them on and off for years after giving up animal things in general.

What the hell do you even want, stupid body? I'm doing a food journal now to try and figure out why you keep fucking freaking out all the time but I'm also running a caloric deficit and don't have weight to lose. Am I supposed to eat shit supermarket eggs from chickens that life in horrible little cages owned by horrible giant corporations turning a profit from your eternal imprisonment and exploitation of your body and its natural functions? Should I try eating cheese, which is the same but for cows? For fuck's sake, do you want meat? You want the flesh of dead animal in you or something? I know that things like carrots and also legitimately alive and we kill and eat them, but let me tell you I can pull a carrot out of the ground, clean, cook and eat it with much less difficulty than I could slaughter an animal and shove its remains in my gaping maw.

Why can't I just be like vegetation that subsists on sunlight, water, and the nutrients in the soil? Why can't I be like a rock that just exists without bothering anything? I hate this animal form that perpetually needs to consume just in order to keep functioning, that what it needs to consume is largely other sentient things that experience some kind of pain or suffering or things like that have to die in order to harvest something edible, and that maybe worst of all, I can't even figure out after so long what it is that this accursed body in particular even wants or needs in particular in order to be healthy. It is all such a sick joke of existence, and I don't know if the punchline has yet come, but so far it is not goddamn funny at all.

I had to give up being a vegetarian... Because of the b vitamins...

My SI turned me into a cannibal when I was an anorexic... So I made a deal. I will welcome all life into my body, but I'm not making babies to prolong the suffering if others. We're overpopulated piled up in tiny cages too. Appartment life sucks

 

[Forever Sleep]

I hugely admire vegans. I've been vegetarian for a year and a half but I think I'd really struggle without eggs and milk.

I agree. It's thoroughly depressing that by existing, we are causing suffering to both animals and people. I try and comfort myself with the fact that it wasn't my decision to be born and- given the choice, I would happily die right now. Still, it's one long guilt trip till it's over really.

Honestly, my diet is very poor. I just can't be bothered really. I suspect it will create problems for me. To an extent, it already is. Starting to feel like I have arthritis coming in my hands. So I've started supplementing with glucosamine (which isn't vegetarian unfortunately). Wondering whether it's a lack of omega 3. Find I can maintain my ethics until I start encountering pain, then they start to waver.

Do you have the same reaction to other foods with fat in? How bad is the pain? I had gallstones a few years back and even the slightest amount of fat would initiate an attack. An egg did do it once. The pain was terrible though, so an upset tummy may be something else. Part of the frustration was trying to work out what the problem was and what food to avoid- so I sympathise with you. I hope you can find out what it is soon.

 

[R. A.]

I do understand your pain, this world can be a chamber of horrors for so many many people. I wish I could think of something clever to help you but I'm afraid I am just not that smart. I do hope you find peace and comfort in the future.

Thank you for the thought in any case. If you have any epiphanies I'd be happy to hear about them

I had to give up being a vegetarian... Because of the b vitamins...

My SI turned me into a cannibal when I was an anorexic... So I made a deal. I will welcome all life into my body, but I'm not making babies to prolong the suffering if others. We're overpopulated piled up in tiny cages too. Appartment life sucks

Interesting, B vitamins are rather readily available in plant foods - not that our bodies process the same things of plant and animal origin the same way. Most of the time I hear people having trouble because of the iron. And yes, I decided long ago that creating offspring would be a morally reprehensible thing for me personally to do, for many reasons. Good on you for seeing this.

I hugely admire vegans. I've been vegetarian for a year and a half but I think I'd really struggle without eggs and milk.

I agree. It's thoroughly depressing that by existing, we are causing suffering to both animals and people. I try and comfort myself with the fact that it wasn't my decision to be born and- given the choice, I would happily die right now. Still, it's one long guilt trip till it's over really.

Honestly, my diet is very poor. I just can't be bothered really. I suspect it will create problems for me. To an extent, it already is. Starting to feel like I have arthritis coming in my hands. So I've started supplementing with glucosamine (which isn't vegetarian unfortunately). Wondering whether it's a lack of omega 3. Find I can maintain my ethics until I start encountering pain, then they start to waver.

Do you have the same reaction to other foods with fat in? How bad is the pain? I had gallstones a few years back and even the slightest amount of fat would initiate an attack. An egg did do it once. The pain was terrible though, so an upset tummy may be something else. Part of the frustration was trying to work out what the problem was and what food to avoid- so I sympathise with you. I hope you can find out what it is soon.

You're right. I didn't choose to exist at all, let alone in this horrible system. Who tf thought this all was a good idea?

I have a fairly good quality diet, as far as a modern western diet goes. I'm sure I don't always stay on top of all my nutritional bases but I'm pretty sure most people don't - if you eat animal products you just have this cheat source that is, admittedly, ridiculously nutrient rich and dense. I intermittently try to do a food journal and see I can handle normal(?) amounts of fat; I don't know whether it's the total amount or the other macros to balance that does it, but if there's "too much" at once it's just a gross feeling. Similar if I have a really heavy breakfast; I just don't have any appetite for the rest of the day, which obviously doesn't work when you aren't eating enough.

Omegas are pretty readily available in plant foods and I've even seen straight up plant-based omega oil supplements. Worht looking out. I know a shit ton about this subject to feel free to message me if you're curious about anything.

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Remember that an all perfect god created this place we call earth, and he/she/it doesn't make mistakes. Consequentially, this place we call earth must be perfect.

 

[CTB Dream]

Bio bad need stop, human animal kill hurt other human animal. Food type always need always possible problem. Existence cruel

 

[freedompass]

...but also that my body may prefer me to be eating the products of horrible animal slavery. Sometimes. Others doing so seems to be killing me. Some context, and sorry for the rambling:

After my best friend CTB nearly six years ago, I completely unexpectedly began a very quick transition to veganism. I'd made some conscious dietary changes before but never anything like this. I just became so excruciatingly aware of how everything is always suffering, and questioned what I right I had to cause more so that I could be alive? A former friend's comment helped me work it out at the time by pointing out the system is closed; if I malnourish myself, then instead, both I and the people in my life who care for me suffer. Great. Fucking cool, no way out. So I just quit animal products, and did so in a country where it was quite a challenge as it wasn't a very known concept and stuck to my guns over 90% of the time, and it was fine. I barely noticed any difference in myself, if at all.

After some time though I abandoned capital v "Veganism" as I came to feel that the reason I was doing it - minimization of harm and suffering - was not always the result of the vegan choice. One prime example was speaking to this fellow vegan traveller in Central America about this prepacked thing of mixed nuts she was eating. I was always conscious of the global aspect so would eat things like eggs in countries where I saw the chickens laying them running around. She instead "didn't consider eggs food" so instead chose to buy this product grown in drought-stricken California most likely, contained in this awful plastic that will be around for a thousand years, which was shipped on an airplane spewing emissions then carted to the place we were. And this is somehow better for all life? Sure, lady.

I later learned the real definition of the practice as set out by the organization that coined the term and the principles is more nuanced, and that she was arguably making the non-vegan choice. But it's all splitting hairs, labels, and whatever. So now I say for convenience's sake, I'm a vegetarian who generally eats vegan, besides animal byproducts I can get from either wholesome sourced or food that would otherwise be wasted.

However.

As I've already written about here, I have some health problems involving the...gastro-intestinal system. Part of this is having bowel movements of a type that won't destroy my ass due to excessive hardness or loseness. I'm also really thin and have lost weight lately. Well, when you eat this kind of diet, it is fucking hard to eat well and not get a shit ton more fibre relative to the amount of calories you should be having, and this has caused and is currently causing problems, I feel. I can just load up on stuff like peanut butter only to such an extent as eating lots of even good fats tends to make me feel nauseous and bloated. So I've occasionally been buying eggs from a couple of vendors at a nearby farmers' market since this season began. But what have I been noticing? I am often getting sick either because of, or coincidentally right after almost every time, eating them. Like, a day of significant stomach pain, chills, intense tiredness, and destructive dump-type-sick. Are the eggs contaminated? Legislation here is they have to be graded to be sold even at a market which includes washing, so I can't imagine this is it. Has my body decided eggs are just now not acceptable? I've been eating them on and off for years after giving up animal things in general.

What the hell do you even want, stupid body? I'm doing a food journal now to try and figure out why you keep fucking freaking out all the time but I'm also running a caloric deficit and don't have weight to lose. Am I supposed to eat shit supermarket eggs from chickens that life in horrible little cages owned by horrible giant corporations turning a profit from your eternal imprisonment and exploitation of your body and its natural functions? Should I try eating cheese, which is the same but for cows? For fuck's sake, do you want meat? You want the flesh of dead animal in you or something? I know that things like carrots and also legitimately alive and we kill and eat them, but let me tell you I can pull a carrot out of the ground, clean, cook and eat it with much less difficulty than I could slaughter an animal and shove its remains in my gaping maw.

Why can't I just be like vegetation that subsists on sunlight, water, and the nutrients in the soil? Why can't I be like a rock that just exists without bothering anything? I hate this animal form that perpetually needs to consume just in order to keep functioning, that what it needs to consume is largely other sentient things that experience some kind of pain or suffering or things like that have to die in order to harvest something edible, and that maybe worst of all, I can't even figure out after so long what it is that this accursed body in particular even wants or needs in particular in order to be healthy. It is all such a sick joke of existence, and I don't know if the punchline has yet come, but so far it is not goddamn funny at all

Unpopular opinion: nature is disgusting. Bodies are gross. No way around it. And after we die they are an object of horror and revulsion. I'm plant based but tolerant. Can't say vegan coz I sometimes wear leather shoes. I hear your frustration *hugs*

 

[NoLightRemains]

I went vegan about a year and a half ago for similar reasons. My previous partner CTB and then I became more acutely aware of suffering in life and decided if I was going to live, I wouldn't allow myself to cause excess suffering just to maintain my existence. I have not had any real health problems and all my labs come back fine. I still worry that someday something will happen in my body and I'll be forced to eat animal products to survive. I do find it cruel how we are forced into this cycle of suffering and some people are unable (or otherwise unwilling) to limit or stop consumption of animal products. It feels so unsettling to exist as a human being.

 

[R. A.]

Remember that an all perfect god created this place we call earth, and he/she/it doesn't make mistakes. Consequentially, this place we call earth must be perfect.

Hahahahahahahahah that's a good one.

Unpopular opinion: nature is disgusting. Bodies are gross. No way around it. And after we die they are an object of horror and revulsion. I'm plant based but tolerant. Can't say vegan coz I sometimes wear leather shoes. I hear your frustration *hugs*

Thank you. The true definition as set out by the Society was interesting. I myself have some clothing that is made from animal material, but I either got it second hand or long before I made this life change. And I would argue that continuing to use them is better than trashing them and buying something synthetic that won't erode for several millennia (forget about the environmental cost of the shipping and so on...)

I went vegan about a year and a half ago for similar reasons. My previous partner CTB and then I became more acutely aware of suffering in life and decided if I was going to live, I wouldn't allow myself to cause excess suffering just to maintain my existence. I have not had any real health problems and all my labs come back fine. I still worry that someday something will happen in my body and I'll be forced to eat animal products to survive. I do find it cruel how we are forced into this cycle of suffering and some people are unable (or otherwise unwilling) to limit or stop consumption of animal products. It feels so unsettling to exist as a human being.

That must have been very rough, I'm sorry. Most people historically ate very little meat; the revolting amount typically consumed in the western and especially North American diet starting not long after the war till even now (minus the sloooow shift away) is a huge part of the problem. The places in the world that have the highest ratio of centenarians all eat small amounts of meat, but mostly fish.

We are omnivores after all, and I think if I lived in some way/place that allowed or forced me to use animal products to their full potential as it used to be before we could "afford" to be so horrendously wasteful, well...it'd take some getting used to, but even that would likely be better for the whole world than my current diet.

 

[Astral Storm]

I have been vegan for five years now and I kinda made a promise to never give it up. Veganism can be totally healthy but I don't really care about my own health that much. It might sound extreme to some but I don't think my life is worth more than any other being.

Though I totally understand your struggle that this body and other organisms need to consume other living beings to survive and live. Ultimately, this is what life is based upon. It's fundamentally sick and twisted.

I find life, the world and reality to be parasitic condition which is totally abhorrent. Harm is inheritent to existence. There's no moral way to live either. I hate nature too which forces animals to eat each other alive for billions of years. It's pathetic, disgusting and heinous. It's a literal horror which made me proud to be an efilist.

 

[freedompass]

Thank you. The true definition as set out by the Society was interesting. I myself have some clothing that is made from animal material, but I either got it second hand or long before I made this life change. And I would argue that continuing to use them is better than trashing them and buying something synthetic that won't erode for several millennia (forget about the environmental cost of the shipping and so on...)

Agreed. Furthermore vegans have historically been subject to a lot of backlash and stereotyping which sometimes makes one hesitant to out oneself.

However in the last 3 years I have seen a real and quite sudden shift. Food manufacturers and retail outlets are falling over themselves to create new plant based products! Restaurants advertise themselves as 'vegan friendly' and even make a separate vegan section on their menus. The importance of clear labelling is better understood. Best of all vegans are no longer seen as weird outliers. We are pretty much mainstream! Even seen as aspirational. It really is an amazing change as someone who has been vegetarian or vegan for 40 years. I'm still not even sure what triggered the change but it happened around the time of Covid 19.

 

[R. A.]

I have been vegan for five years now and I kinda made a promise to never give it up. Veganism can be totally healthy but I don't really care about my own health that much. It might sound extreme to some but I don't think my life is worth more than any other being.

Though I totally understand your struggle that this body and other organisms need to consume other living beings to survive and live. Ultimately, this is what life is based upon. It's fundamentally sick and twisted.

I find life, the world and reality to be parasitic condition which is totally abhorrent. Harm is inheritent to existence. There's no moral way to live either. I hate nature too which forces animals to eat each other alive for billions of years. It's pathetic, disgusting and heinous. It's a literal horror which made me proud to be an efilist.

Nice work, we're in the same rough territory of years. Funny enough I don't care about being generally "Healthy" with a capital H, but I do care about my existing health problems which are one of the main things that make me want to CTB causing more issues. Like many of us I just want to suffer less and sadly, this means eating (something). I really wish I didn't need to eat anything at all though.

I feel the best we can do is honour and show respect for the lives that have been extinguished every day in order for our continued existence, in whatever way that looks like for us. I do this sometimes but used to be way better with it. When sometimes things are so bad that you don't even want to eat so that you would die already, it can be hard

Agreed. Furthermore vegans have historically been subject to a lot of backlash and stereotyping which sometimes makes one hesitant to out oneself.

However in the last 3 years I have seen a real and quite sudden shift. Food manufacturers and retail outlets are falling over themselves to create new plant based products! Restaurants advertise themselves as 'vegan friendly' and even make a separate vegan section on their menus. The importance of clear labelling is better understood. Best of all vegans are no longer seen as weird outliers. We are pretty much mainstream! Even seen as aspirational. It really is an amazing change as someone who has been vegetarian or vegan for 40 years. I'm still not even sure what triggered the change but it happened around the time of Covid 19.

Wow, 40 years is a while. Good on you. I too noticed things reach a fever pitch around a similar time; I think one of the upshots of all the extra time people were at home doing "nothing" was it gave us time to think...and some actually used it. What I don't like is that as you also say, it has become trendy. Which means efforts to monetize and capitalize on it. Which means doing it for the wrong reasons. Obviously not everyone, and "studies" have shown that even the worst, least environmentally sound plant food products have a lower impact than the best-practice commercial meat ones, consumerism is a massive part of the equation and honestly, people need to just stop buying so much shit.

I really want the DIY/repair thing to take off more next. The sheer amount of packaging everything comes in is a good corollary to this: if you don't think the wrapper for your tofurkey slices or whatever isn't gonna fuck over some chain of living things after you pitch it in the trash, you've got another thing coming...

 

[Hollowillow]

Thank you for the thought in any case. If you have any epiphanies I'd be happy to hear about them


Interesting, B vitamins are rather readily available in plant foods - not that our bodies process the same things of plant and animal origin the same way. Most of the time I hear people having trouble because of the iron. And yes, I decided long ago that creating offspring would be a morally reprehensible thing for me personally to do, for many reasons. Good on you for seeing this.


You're right. I didn't choose to exist at all, let alone in this horrible system. Who tf thought this all was a good idea?

I have a fairly good quality diet, as far as a modern western diet goes. I'm sure I don't always stay on top of all my nutritional bases but I'm pretty sure most people don't - if you eat animal products you just have this cheat source that is, admittedly, ridiculously nutrient rich and dense. I intermittently try to do a food journal and see I can handle normal(?) amounts of fat; I don't know whether it's the total amount or the other macros to balance that does it, but if there's "too much" at once it's just a gross feeling. Similar if I have a really heavy breakfast; I just don't have any appetite for the rest of the day, which obviously doesn't work when you aren't eating enough.

Omegas are pretty readily available in plant foods and I've even seen straight up plant-based omega oil supplements. Worht looking out. I know a shit ton about this subject to feel free to message me if you're curious about anything.

I read that iron is easy to find in plants... It's the B vitamins that are hard to get... And that can mmake people bat shit insane. Hitler was affraid of blood and a vegetarian

 

[Traveler VII]

I really wish I didn't need to eat anything at all though.

I'll take this statement, applied also to sleep, set to the optional and infinite loop configurations, please.

I only recently became a vegetarian (roughly between August - September of 2020) but carried the inclination for much of my youth.

The stance of vegetarianism/veganism was never popular with those around whom I was raised, nor is it popular with my wife's family, though my wife herself has embraced a largely plant-based diet alongside me.

Knowing that many creatures brutally eviscerate and consume fellow organisms for sustenance (and in the case of certain humans, sport ), is one of the unavoidable horrors and ugly truths of this plane of existence.

If only this realm played host to an even slightly kinder, gentler, more empathetic world...

 

[freedompass]

'This plane of existence'. 'This realm'. I like that. You think like me