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Helium - my experiment
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So, I bought 3 large helium balloons, sorted out a simple inhaler using the nebuliser.
Then fitted the inlet of the inhaler to the balloon and taped the exit of the balloon to let the helium flow.
Nothing happened.
Then, I just put the balloon near my nose, pinching it shut while exhaling and opening it a little while inhaling. I just wanted to see if it would work at all.
Suprisingly, my oxygen saturation starting falling within 2-3 breaths!
I went from 98 to 75 within that one balloon. I was conscious, but a little fuzzy in the head.
There are 2 more balloons waiting for tonight. Don't think this will do the CTB for me, but cylinder procurement is hard here and all that flow rate and nozzle etc. is befuddling.
So, if someone can help answer 2 questions:
1. At what oxygen saturation can we be sure to CTB?
2. Are suicide pacts allowed on this site? I think one would help me a lot.
The problem with not having pure helium is going to be that as long as there is oxygen present, your body will produce enough CO2 to trigger the panic response. I haven't heard of anyone being successful enough to evacuate the CO2 fast enough when the helium source keeps feeding you new oxygen to produce more, without triggering this... and most people can't resist the natural struggle to tear out of whatever contraption they are in to get back to breathable air. IF you could resist that urge, then you wouldn't even need the helium, just the bag over the head trick of old... painful and panicky, but pretty much the same experience as the impure helium source provides.
That's my understanding from the reading I've done.
I agree with Dejected 55. To add to this, even if you did get pure helium in those balloons, from my understanding (and I'm not a doctor..), you could go unconscious from inhaling that. But then if you just lie there on the floor passed out from oxygen deprivation — the air around you obvs has oxygen and so your brain doesn't stay deprived enough to "complete" the dying. You might come back on your own, or you might stay unconscious and sustain brain damage. But for the body to complete the dying process I think it needs to be fully oxygen deprived for 20-40 minutes (in an environment with no/too low oxygen).
But.. I think there were cases of someone filling a bag with inert gas and they died from keeping that over their head. Without steady incoming flow. But it's just not guaranteed.
Yeah, as noted above me... if you're just doing this in a room, once you pass out from the helium, you're in a room full of air and will start breathing again. It's the same reason why you can't hold your breath until you die. It's hard to hold your breath long enough to pass out... but if you managed that, then once passed out you'd start breathing again and wake up eventually.
Yeah, as noted above me... if you're just doing this in a room, once you pass out from the helium, you're in a room full of air and will start breathing again. It's the same reason why you can't hold your breath until you die. It's hard to hold your breath long enough to pass out... but if you managed that, then once passed out you'd start breathing again and wake up eventually.
The problem with not having pure helium is going to be that as long as there is oxygen present, your body will produce enough CO2 to trigger the panic response. I haven't heard of anyone being successful enough to evacuate the CO2 fast enough when the helium source keeps feeding you new oxygen to produce more, without triggering this... and most people can't resist the natural struggle to tear out of whatever contraption they are in to get back to breathable air. IF you could resist that urge, then you wouldn't even need the helium, just the bag over the head trick of old... painful and panicky, but pretty much the same experience as the impure helium source provides.
That's my understanding from the reading I've done.
Doubtful... those impure Helium tanks are 80/20 for a reason... Our breathable atmosphere is not anywhere near loaded with pure oxygen... they put about the same amount of oxygen in their impure helium as is in the average air around you... so you're getting enough oxygen to keep you alive and awake until sufficient CO2 builds up inside and then you'd have the panic response the same as if you had just put a bag over your head with no helium in it. I mean, if you can fight that panic response, then just the bag is all you'd need... but if you can't fight through that, then you'll not accomplish anything but terrorizing yourself for a bit.
Doubtful... those impure Helium tanks are 80/20 for a reason... Our breathable atmosphere is not anywhere near loaded with pure oxygen... they put about the same amount of oxygen in their impure helium as is in the average air around you... so you're getting enough oxygen to keep you alive and awake until sufficient CO2 builds up inside and then you'd have the panic response the same as if you had just put a bag over your head with no helium in it. I mean, if you can fight that panic response, then just the bag is all you'd need... but if you can't fight through that, then you'll not accomplish anything but terrorizing yourself for a bit.
What if the helium is pure, and I went unconscious, and since it's a sealed bag around my head with it and it's not connected to the tank, would the co2 build up from my exhaled breath make me rip the bag out of my head while unconscious or not, because that would be the worst that can happen
What if the helium is pure, and I went unconscious, and since it's a sealed bag around my head with it and it's not connected to the tank, would the co2 build up from my exhaled breath make me rip the bag out of my head while unconscious or not, because that would be the worst that can happen
I don't know about that. CO2 is only generated if there is oxygen present... so if you were able to create a pure helium environment then the only CO2 would be from initial oxygen intake before you got inside the bag. That might not be enough to wake you. That's more knowledge than I have at the moment.
Problem with helium tanks is that they intentionally started adding oxygen as too many people started killing themselves with it. Good for you if you can still find pure
I think, that's a wrong question, since you can't control your SpO2 level after consciousness is lost. In order to succeed at CTB, it's enough to keep the concentration of O2 below 6% in the breathed gas mixture. Breathing less than 6% O2 causes rapid loss of consciousness and death in minutes.
This paper reviews deaths in which there is an environment that is low in oxygen and/or has elevated levels of carbon dioxide. These deaths present problems to autopsy pathologists, as the autopsy is typically negative and postmortem toxicology ...
But.. I think there were cases of someone filling a bag with inert gas and they died from keeping that over their head. Without steady incoming flow. But it's just not guaranteed.
That's easy to check with a bag filled with plain air. In my tests with a large bag, symptoms of hypercapnia developed in 3 minutes. This time could be greater if hyperventilation were used beforehand (transition from hypocapnia to hypercapnia takes a lot of time). Loss of consciousness from inhaling inert gases mixed with a small proportion of oxygen should occur within a minute.
Oxygen is always present in a body that is still functioning... You can't remove all oxygen from the bloodstream and the cells in a couple of minutes. If you achieved a state when CO2 is not produced, you're probably dead.
That's easy to check with a bag filled with plain air. In my tests with a large bag, symptoms of hypercapnia developed in 3 minutes. This time could be greater if hyperventilation were used beforehand (transition from hypocapnia to hypercapnia takes a lot of time). Loss of consciousness from inhaling inert gases mixed with a small proportion of oxygen should occur within a minute.
From what I've read co2 can only be produced and then exhaled (which is the only relevant point for our scenario) if the person can breathe in oxygen. So the less oxygen they can breathe in (ie 6% or even less) the less co2 they'll breathe out (ie triggering the hypercapnic response).
TheEmptyVoid said: Is there a chance of ripping the bag out while unconscious from co2 build up?
Why do you think someone unconscious would rip off the bag without hypercapnia/high level of co2 buildup? That sounds illogical to me. But I'm curious why you think that might be possible?
Oxygen is always present in a body that is still functioning... You can't remove all oxygen from the bloodstream and the cells in a couple of minutes. If you achieved a state when CO2 is not produced, you're probably dead.
Correct but there shouldn't be "much" left right. "Much" meaning enough to for the body to exhale so much co2 to realistically produce an unpleasant co2-response (ie hypercapnia). That may vary slightly from person to person as (from what I understand) it depends on one's metabolism. But overall, a normal human doesn't store extensive amounts of o2 in the blood cells that they would then exhale in extensive volumes of co2 right?
And wait, was that a typo and you meant the time would be less if hyperventilation were done beforehand?! Bc if you're hyperventilating your oxygen hunger alarm should get triggered quicker than without hyperventilation right?
I think, that's a wrong question, since you can't control your SpO2 level after consciousness is lost. In order to succeed at CTB, it's enough to keep the concentration of O2 below 6% in the breathed gas mixture. Breathing less than 6% O2 causes rapid loss of consciousness and death in minutes.
This paper reviews deaths in which there is an environment that is low in oxygen and/or has elevated levels of carbon dioxide. These deaths present problems to autopsy pathologists, as the autopsy is typically negative and postmortem toxicology ...
That's easy to check with a bag filled with plain air. In my tests with a large bag, symptoms of hypercapnia developed in 3 minutes. This time could be greater if hyperventilation were used beforehand (transition from hypocapnia to hypercapnia takes a lot of time). Loss of consciousness from inhaling inert gases mixed with a small proportion of oxygen should occur within a minute.
I guess, if that is possible with excess of CO2, it should be possible without hypercapnia as well. Note that high CO2 levels can produce narcosis
Obviously, you can't reduce SpO2 from 98% to 75% (as mentioned by the OP) by means of breathing 80% He / 20% O2 mixture.
Oxygen is always present in a body that is still functioning... You can't remove all oxygen from the bloodstream and the cells in a couple of minutes. If you achieved a state when CO2 is not produced, you're probably dead.
I remember reading the brain dying after 10 minutes (maybe less) without oxygen, let's say 15.
I would plan for at least 30~45 minutes of steady flow of inert gas.
But that's me bc I'm cautious that way.
From what I've read co2 can only be produced and then exhaled (which is the only relevant point for our scenario) if the person can breathe in oxygen. So the less oxygen they can breathe in (ie 6% or even less) the less co2 they'll breathe out (ie triggering the hypercapnic response).
Sure, eventually production of CO2 will decrease. But why do we pay attention to this? Significantly decreased CO2 production implies anoxemia that likely renders deep unconsciousness, then CO2 levels shouldn't matter at all.
Why do you think someone unconscious would rip off the bag without hypercapnia/high level of co2 buildup? That sounds illogical to me. But I'm curious why you think that might be possible?
As far as I understand, inert gas asphyxiation works similarly to administration of nitrous oxide (pure or with small proportions of oxygen) for which various weird movements are described in literature. Uncontrolled movements are common in the 2nd stage of general anesthesia - excitement or delirium, regardless of what agent is used to produce anesthesia.
Excessive ideation; disturbances of judgement, control, and volition.
Analgesia.
Vertigo and loss of power of maintaining equilibrium.
Pleasurable or distressing sensations.
Disturbances (exaggeration or diminution) of common sensibility and of special senses.
Misinterpretation of external impressions.
Emotional disturbances, e.g. laughter and crying.
Reflexes well marked and often exaggerated; sensory stimuli produce co-ordinated and apparently purposive movements.
Loss of power of remembering (fixing) sensory impressions.
Dreams.
Rise of blood pressure and increase of cardiac action.
Respiration increased, but regular and free, unless interfered with by emotional causes or by direct irritation of anaesthetic, inducing cough, "holding of breath," deglutition movements, retching, or vomiting.
Pupils dilated.
2. Stage of light anaesthesia.
Complete loss of consciousness.
Delirium; articulate speech passing into unintelligible muttering.
Respiration still deeper and quicker than normal; often irregular and impeded by
General tonic muscular spasm, deglutition, closure of glottis, spasm of jaws, etc.
Clonic muscular spasm.
Reflexes still persist; but motor results of stimuli devoid of purposive character.
Inarticulate phonated (expiratory) sounds.
Coughing, retching, vomiting.
Heart's action still excited (much dependent on character of breathing).
Pupils smaller.
3. Stage of deep anaesthesia or narcosis.
Relaxation of most muscles.
Breathing regular, often softly snoring or stertorous.
Decrease of respiratory exchanges; fall of temperature.
Increasing fall of blood pressure (chloroform).
Slow pulse.
Loss of corneal, pharyngeal, laryngeal, patellar, and most but not all reflexes.
Pupils constricted.
4. Stage of bulbar paralysis.
Loss of bladder, rectal, and other very late (e.g. certain peritoneal) reflexes.
Breathing becomes shallow.
Increasing lividity or pallor.
Breathing ceases (paralysis of respiratory centres), loss of respiratory reflexes.
Depression of vaso-motor centres.
Feeble, irregular cardiac action.
Widely dilated pupils.
Separation of eyelids.
Cessation of tear production by the lachrymal glands.
Death.
There were a few attempts to use nitrogen asphyxiation for general anesthesia in dental surgery
I have elsewhere stated that the phenomena which result from the inhalation of nitrous oxide as an anaesthetic by human beings are strictly analogous with those observed during the early stages of asphyxia. While some writers maintain that the anaesthetic action of nitrous oxide is due to its preventing access of free oxygen to the system, others believe that it has a "specific anaesthetic action." It occurred to me that some light might be thrown upon this subject by the administration of pure nitrogen. Accordingly I obtained from the Scotch and Irish Oxygen Company of Glasgow a cylinder containing 100 cubic feet of compressed nitrogen, in which the proportion of oxygen present was only 0.5 per cent. by volume, with 0.3 per cent. of CO₂. As a preliminary trial, Mr. F. W. Braine was good enough to administer this gas in five instances to members of the staff of King's College, who volunteered to submit to the experiments. The result was in each case the production of complete anaesthesia and of general phenomena precisely similar to those observed from the inhalation of nitrous oxide. Encouraged by these results, Mr. Braine felt justified in administering the gas to patients at the Dental Hospital for anaesthetic purposes. Nine patients took the gas. In every case the result was the production of complete anaesthesia, with general phenomena precisely similar to those observed during nitrous oxide inhalation. The pulse was first full and throbbing, then feeble. In the advanced stage the respiration was deep and rapid, and there was lividity of the surface; the pupils were dilated, and there was more or less jactitation of the limbs. The only difference, in the opinion of some of those present, being that the anaesthesia was less rapidly produced, and somewhat less durable, than that from nitrous oxide, though in each case the tooth was extracted without pain.
On a subsequent occasion the same gas was administered by Dr. Frederic Hewitt at the Dental Hospital. As before, nine patients took the gas. The maximum period required to produce anaesthesia was 70 seconds, the minimum 50 seconds, and the mean time 58.3 seconds. In one case two teeth were extracted without pain. In one case only was pain experienced, and in that case, the tooth having been broken up and not extracted, the patient said she felt a "smashing up." Having on several occasions witnessed the administration by Dr. Hewitt of nitrous oxide mixed with 10 per cent. by volume of oxygen, with the result of producing anaesthesia without lividity or jactitation, I determined to try a mixture of nitrogen with a small proportion of oxygen. I therefore obtained from the company above mentioned a cylinder containing forty cubic feet of nitrogen mixed with 3 per cent. by volume of oxygen, and a second cylinder equally charged with a mixture of nitrogen with 5 per cent. by volume of oxygen. These gases were administered by Dr. Hewitt to patients at the Dental Hospital with the following results: - In the case of the 3 per cent. gas, which was given to five patients, the time required to produce anaesthesia varied from 60 to 75 seconds, the average time being 67.5 seconds. In each case the tooth was extracted without pain, the duration of anaesthesia being somewhat longer than with pure nitrogen. In each case there was lividity, dilatation of pupils, and more or less jactitation. On the same day Dr. Hewitt gave nitrogen with 5 per cent. oxygen to four patients. With this mixture the time required for the production of anaesthesia ranged from 75 to 95 seconds, the average being 87.5 seconds. In each case there was complete anaesthesia, during which one patient had three molars extracted, and although she said she "felt the two last," the sensation appears to have been that of a pull, and not of acute pain. In all of these four cases there was slight lividity before the face-piece was removed, but in only one case was there slight jactitation of the limbs. The other three patients were perfectly quiescent.
I think, achieving the 3rd stage in 75 - 95 seconds of breathing 5% O2 is a very good result. I would be surprised to see any problems from CO2 after surgical anesthesia is reached.
Correct but there shouldn't be "much" left right. "Much" meaning enough to for the body to exhale so much co2 to realistically produce an unpleasant co2-response (ie hypercapnia). That may vary slightly from person to person as (from what I understand) it depends on one's metabolism. But overall, a normal human doesn't store extensive amounts of o2 in the blood cells that they would then exhale in extensive volumes of co2 right?
Considering that we're supposed to pass out in 20 - 60 seconds, we should not experience any unpleasant response due to CO2, unless something's very wrong with our CTB setup. Especially if hyperventilation is used right before breathing the asphyxiant gas.
And wait, was that a typo and you meant the time would be less if hyperventilation were done beforehand?! Bc if you're hyperventilating your oxygen hunger alarm should get triggered quicker than without hyperventilation right?
No. There is no "oxygen hunger alarm", the sense of suffocation is caused by excess of CO2 in the body. Hyperventilation removes CO2 from the bloodstream at a much higher rate than during normal breathing. If there is no increased production of CO2 (as with intense physical exercise), overbreathing leads to lack of CO2 in the body, which is called hypocapnia. Then, in order to achieve hypercapnia (excess of CO2), you have to reach the normal CO2 level first, that is, we have a chain of transitions hypocapnia -> normal CO2 -> hypercapnia, which requires more time than transition normal CO2 -> hypercapnia. After 2-minute hyperventilation I can hold my breath for 2 minutes before the urge to breathe occurs. Without hyperventilation, the urge to breathe occurs in about half a minute.
So I really don't get all that widespread fearmongering about CO2 from other users. A combination of hyperventilation with a large bag (15 - 30 liters) can delay hypercapnic response by 3 - 4 minutes or more. This time is more than enough to put you in deep coma.
No. There is no "oxygen hunger alarm", the sense of suffocation is caused by excess of CO2 in the body. Hyperventilation removes CO2 from the bloodstream at a much higher rate than during normal breathing. If there is no increased production of CO2 (as with intense physical exercise), overbreathing leads to lack of CO2 in the body, which is called hypocapnia. Then, in order to achieve hypercapnia (excess of CO2), you have to reach the normal CO2 level first, that is, we have a chain of transitions hypocapnia -> normal CO2 -> hypercapnia, which requires more time than transition normal CO2 -> hypercapnia. After 2-minute hyperventilation I can hold my breath for 2 minutes before the urge to breathe occurs. Without hyperventilation, the urge to breathe occurs in about half a minute.
So this is interesting, thanks for sharing. I looked it up too (bc my understanding was the extra o2 from overbreathing would eventually cause an increased co2 response, but this process may take slightly longer than in "normal" breathing).
Either way though, I personally feel a bit panicky and longing for normal air/breathing after I hyperventilate. It stresses me out rather than calm me. Does it help you feel calmer?
And you're right, I'm not overly worried about the co2 buildup/response. But it's good to be as prepared and knowledgeable as possible!
I don't know much about using nitrous oxide.
But given that it's often used as an anesthetic, idk, my initial thought is to not use it for ctb (bc there the goal is obviously not to wake up ever again). Especially not with any o2 mixed in!
What benefit over using nitrogen do you think nitrous oxide would have?
Also, from what I understand nitrous oxide is more of a "happy" gas than nitrogen. So… I feel like the risk of an "impulsive, euphoric action of removing the bag" would be increased with this? Probably only slightly increased (the risk is there with both gases), but still.
What's your plan to counteract any involuntary movement or action of removing the bag once inhalation of the gas (whichever) starts?
For body convulsions I will do body straps, so it's really more about any involuntary counteractive mental actions in the early stages of delirium.
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