Discussion Does God believe a person can reform?

[Forever Sleep]

I'm refering to the fire and brimstone old testament God here...

But, I find the concept weird. If you do something terrible in this life but you genuinely repent- God will forgive you presumably. But, if you aren't repentent or, you don't beg for forgiveness, what? You get banished to hell forever? What if you feel genuinely repentent in hell? Does God not believe in reform then? At least, not after a person is dead?

I also don't see the value in punishing a person/ soul forever. Asides from some perverse sadistic satisfaction in watching them suffer. Perhaps they deserve to be forced to atone for the hurt they caused. But, forever?

Obviously, we jail the most dangerous criminals for life in this society. Simply I imagine- because it's too risky to release them. They were presumably so dangerous to others that, we can't even risk that they might have reformed. But, God can presumably protect their flock in heaven. So- why the need for an eternal hell?

Personally, I hope there is no God. Certainly no hell but, I don't like the idea of being under the rule of such a being anyway. Their ideas seem peculiar.

 

[Pluto]

 

[cme-dme]

Personally, I believe the idea of eternal damnation was only really there to motivate people to not do bad things. If you think about it for too long it stops making sense. Here's a cool video about the topic:

This video is more about the idea of hell as a whole but it also covers how the concept of eternal damnation is pretty silly when you think about it.

 

[Dejected 55]

Forget the concept of doing bad and repenting = good... Consider that according to the bible(s) you can be a good person, do good things all your life, essentially follow all the ideals of the religion... BUT be an atheist or agnostic and don't believe in God... and no matter how good you are, fuck you because you didn't bend the knee for God.

That's pretty shitty.

He'll let in the child molesters and murderers who repent on their deathbed... but not the good soul who committed the unforgivable sin of not being a believer.

Meanwhile... Old Testament God gave no shits at all... one bad person in a town and he'd fucking raze the whole thing just because he could and start over.

 

[itsgone2]

Forget the concept of doing bad and repenting = good... Consider that according to the bible(s) you can be a good person, do good things all your life, essentially follow all the ideals of the religion... BUT be an atheist or agnostic and don't believe in God... and no matter how good you are, fuck you because you didn't bend the knee for God.

That's pretty shitty.

He'll let in the child molesters and murderers who repent on their deathbed... but not the good soul who committed the unforgivable sin of not being a believer.

Meanwhile... Old Testament God gave no shits at all... one bad person in a town and he'd fucking raze the whole thing just because he could and start over.

I agree with a lot of your posts, but this one kind of bummed me out. I get it though. I get the anger. I wish we knew why people that do vile things exist at all. I've made many poor decisions in life, mostly due to anger and not thinking things through, and I wonder why I was made that way. It's frustrating.
But we can't truly know who God forgives. In theory it should be all. Even if so it doesn't help me know. It doesn't help this misery I'm in.
It's frustrating and confusing and I wish I had the guts to end this and just find out already.

 

[asaṅkhata]

Meanwhile... Old Testament God gave no shits at all... one bad person in a town and he'd fucking raze the whole thing just because he could and start over.

The point of sodom and gomorrha was that they were all bad. Lot was the only half decent person there--in god's eyes--that's why he and his family were allowed to escape.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Forget the concept of doing bad and repenting = good... Consider that according to the bible(s) you can be a good person, do good things all your life, essentially follow all the ideals of the religion... BUT be an atheist or agnostic and don't believe in God... and no matter how good you are, fuck you because you didn't bend the knee for God.

That's pretty shitty.

He'll let in the child molesters and murderers who repent on their deathbed... but not the good soul who committed the unforgivable sin of not being a believer.

Meanwhile... Old Testament God gave no shits at all... one bad person in a town and he'd fucking raze the whole thing just because he could and start over.

That's definitely something that really gets to me too. I've known some lovely atheists.

 

[Dejected 55]

The point of sodom and gomorrha was that they were all bad. Lot was the only half decent person there--in god's eyes--that's why he and his family were allowed to escape.

Except... not Lot's wife. She made the apparently unforgivable mistake of looking back as they left... and she was turned to salt. So, God not only thought everyone else was so irredeemable that they had to be wiped out, no questions asked... but someone daring to "defy" him by merely looking back at the place being destroyed was treated just as harshly.

Old Testament God wiped the earth out multiple times over... Noah's Ark is another such story... gives Noah and his family the head's up to save himself and a bunch of animals... then floods the whole place.

 

[cme-dme]

Except... not Lot's wife. She made the apparently unforgivable mistake of looking back as they left... and she was turned to salt. So, God not only thought everyone else was so irredeemable that they had to be wiped out, no questions asked... but someone daring to "defy" him by merely looking back at the place being destroyed was treated just as harshly.

Old Testament God wiped the earth out multiple times over... Noah's Ark is another such story... gives Noah and his family the head's up to save himself and a bunch of animals... then floods the whole place.

It's crazy to me how comically evil Old Testament God is. Makes me wonder why in the world anyone would wanna worship him (outside of fear, maybe)

 

[Forever Sleep]

It's crazy to me how comically evil Old Testament God is. Makes me wonder why in the world anyone would wanna worship him (outside of fear, maybe)

I think it must have been fear. I suppose that still makes sense to me now. I can understand fearing the God who created all this. Obviously, some things are incredible too. Anyone who designs rainbows is awesome. But, there's just too much horrible stuff going on (for me) to think about God in a loving way, as a fatherly figure say. Perhaps sort of as a teacher but one of the very worst and most ineffectual types. One obsessed with punishment. One who isn't even fair. I just find it weird I suppose. Like- to feel that warmth and gratitude towards God, I would have to suspend my awareness of reality. Even of religion in places. I can feel awe certainly- if they exist. But more in a kind of terrified/ horrified sense! As in- oh shit- there really is something at the helm of all of this and they're likely very corrupt.

 

[asaṅkhata]

Except... not Lot's wife. She made the apparently unforgivable mistake of looking back as they left... and she was turned to salt. So, God not only thought everyone else was so irredeemable that they had to be wiped out, no questions asked... but someone daring to "defy" him by merely looking back at the place being destroyed was treated just as harshly.

Old Testament God wiped the earth out multiple times over... Noah's Ark is another such story... gives Noah and his family the head's up to save himself and a bunch of animals... then floods the whole place.

Why are you treating it as though it were real? Yahweh can't hurt you, I promise...

 

[Forever Sleep]

Why are you treating it as though it were real? Yahweh can't hurt you, I promise...

I wish I could feel so sure. I do doubt that God exists. I hope they don't in fact but, I'm not 100% sure. May I ask- were you raised to be religious but, managed to reject it?

 

[asaṅkhata]

May I ask- were you raised to be religious but, managed to reject it?

I was raised protestant but it never clicked with me. Possibly because I was a social outsider. These kinds of religion always rely on groupthink.

 

[Dejected 55]

Why are you treating it as though it were real? Yahweh can't hurt you, I promise...

I don't believe in God... but lots of people do. I believe when you count all the Christian factions, Judaism, and Islam together, there are more people who believe in him than don't... so I recognize I'm in the minority.

 

[instormdrains]

Forget the concept of doing bad and repenting = good... Consider that according to the bible(s) you can be a good person, do good things all your life, essentially follow all the ideals of the religion... BUT be an atheist or agnostic and don't believe in God... and no matter how good you are, fuck you because you didn't bend the knee for God

this heavily misrepresentes Christianity. There are no good people to send to hell. Chrisitanity teaches that ALL have fallen short of the glory of God both atheist and believer. (Romans 3:10-18 Mark 10:18) if a billionaire gives all of his money to charity after blowing up a building that doesn't erase his evil. He should still be arrested and charged. No matter how much good we try to do our sins can not be erased by our deeds this would not be justice. Christians are saved by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:1-10) Only because Jesus died for out sins and took our righteous punishment can a Christian be redeemed. This grace is offered to all but the atheist refuses his sacrifice and allows themselves to be judged by their works instead of God's. If Christ came to my house and said sorry bro you've been doing too much and then kills me and sends me to hell that would be an acceptable punishment for all I have done. Any Christian that says they are Moral is a liar.

Meanwhile... Old Testament God gave no shits at all... one bad person in a town and he'd fucking raze the whole thing just because he could and start over.

As mentioned earlier sodom was destroyed because 10 good people couldn't be found not because of 1 bad person (Genesis 18 26-33). They were a horribly sinful city and they even tried to gr@pe God's angels. On the topic of lots wife dying it is because she deserved it. Don't get me wrong she's WAY more moral then sodom it still doesn't make her righteous. In the same way standing next to Ted bundy we are both saints, his degeneracy is no excuse for our depravity. God didnt need to give Lots familly an escape route but he is a God of mercy so he did so anyway. The same way he didnt need to spare Noah from the flood and he didnt need to come down and die for our inequities. If you give someone a bottle of Tylenol and you tell them explicitly if they eat the entire bottle they will die and they read the warnings on the bottle thats their fault. She knew perfectly well that she would die and be judged if she looked back and did it anyway.

 

[Forever Sleep]

No matter how much good we try to do our sins can not be erased by our deeds this would not be justice. Christians are saved by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:1-10) Only because Jesus died for out sins and took our righteous punishment can a Christian be redeemed. This grace is offered to all but the atheist refuses his sacrifice and allows themselves to be judged by their works instead of God's.

This is what I find so disturbing though... Will God truly 'forgive' (supposedly) repentent child molestors, rapists and murderers. Yet, they will condemn a fairly average person with no major sins- simply for not believing? That seems extremely disturbing- and morally off to me.

Why does an omnipotent God require a fan club to begin with- anyway? Imagine if our earthly rulers behaved like that? That it wasn't enough- that we obeyed their rules. That now- they insisted we sang them hymns and prayed to them and offered them thanks. It wasn't enough to just be a good person and a law abiding citizen- we needed to show them devotion as well. Wouldn't an outsider view such a practice as a dictatorship?