Venting Are we overlooking velocity? guns, grain, caliber, speed

[wheelsonthebus]

This is not a guide; I am not asserting anything; this is me spiraling about grain.

I am huffing that copium.

So I've been reading a lot of discussion on SaSu and contributing in my own little way as well to the ongoing discussion around firearms and damage. Most people's goals with using a firearm to CTB, as I understand it, is to die quickly, reliably, and with minimal suffering. The issue is that a lot of literature and reporting online overlooks whether or not the "victim" died immediately or not - did they die before they hit the ground or did they slowly bleed out? Funnily enough, if they were forthcoming about these factors, they would probably contribute to more effectively scaring people off of using guns to commit. This of course isn't my goal, so I'm going to be using this information for the opposite approach.

I'm guilty of it: overlooking grain and velocity. Because I never had to worry about it before because when I worked with guns the ammo was provided. I wasn't stopping by Academy Outdoors like "hi 7.62 x51mm NATO pls :3 do u take cash"

To be fair, angle of entry (where you shoot yourself) is probably the most important thing. But secondary to that, we seem to prioritize bigger calibers over anything and hold shotguns as the gold standard. First, a lot of people are not going to have access to a long barrel weapon. Maybe they have to make do with the firearm they already have. Maybe they will not be able to reliably hide or transport a shotgun or rifle. But also, people "survive" shotgun wounds for minutes even until succumbing.

So let's talk about grain (gr).
The definition: grain is the weight of the projectile. 1 grain = 1/7000 lb = 0.0648 g.
Heavier bullets (higher grain):
- Lower velocity (given same cartridge and powder capacity)
- Higher momentum
- Tend to penetrate more consistently (they push deeper through ballistic gel)
- With JHP (hollow point, which you'd better be using) they expand more slowly because velocity drives the expansion.
Lighter bullets (lower grain):
- Higher velocity
- More sensitive to drag/they slow down faster in the gel
- JHP tends to expand more aggressively and quickly if velocity is high

Spoiler: my insanity on grain, for your consideration

Some common ranges:
9mm: ~115-147 gr
.40 S&W: ~155-180 gr
.45 ACP: ~185-230 gr
Let's talk stats:
SaSu may have you believe that the god almighty of SIGSWH (self inflicted gunshot wound to the head, say it 3 times fast) is a shotgun. End of story. Worry about nothing else.
A lot of data suggests otherwise. Here is one example for your consideration:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29855212/
Handguns
In the linked Journal of Neurotrauma study, handguns led to the highest mortality rates (58.7%).

Hunting rifles
48.7%.

Shotguns
They found that shotguns had the lowest mortality rates among firearms (31.9%).
Shotgun patients spent longer time in the ICU, with an average increase of 3.5 days, and in the hospital, with an average increase of 4.2 days.

Rifles
"Rifles were found to be the most lethal weapons of all, and patients of this type of injury are more likely to die before arriving to emergency rooms."

Study context
"For assaultive gunshot wounds to the head, there was a mortality rate of 41%. However, this increases to 74% if the wound is an isolated head wound compared to 52% for non-isolated.

Researchers believe that this can be attributed to the fact that isolated head wounds, which are often a result of suicide/self-inflicted injury, are performed at close-range in comparison to non-isolated head wounds that typically involve being shot multiple times from a farther distance. Furthermore, a Glasgow Coma Scale score of 3 to 8 was found to be associated with the highest risk of death as well as prolonged ICU length of stay."
​

(I assume we don't want at ICU stay, because ICU stays are for alive people.)

Hmmm. This study, like many, forces us to extrapolate. Are shotguns so weak because all of the patients in the study shot by them were assaulted from some amount of distance? Or is it that there are other factors involved that would better indicate the lethality of different rounds that aren't often discussed?

Some facts:
There is a positive relationship between grain (weight) and muzzle energy. More propellant = bigger boom.
There is an inverse relationship between grain (weight) and velocity.
(This is the simplest part of rocket science. It's all downhill from there.)

http://www.gwicu.com/Assets/Articles/Ballistics.pdf This paper includes additional tables for other types of weapons, including shotguns.



There is a big ol hole in the available published research when it comes to how quickly one dies from a SIGSWH. There is also, however, plenty of anecdotal information available around the net about those who have witnessed such suicides. People do not always die immediately, but survive in agony for minutes.

​

If the goal is to shoot oneself in the head point blank, get all the hot gasses in there for maximum boiling, have all the expansion from the round for maximum blending, and ultimately turn the brain into porridge over a relatively short period of time of a second, I'm afraid that the weight and the speed of the round may indeed be relevant.

Two most popular 9mm self defense ammo, compared:

Bullet grain	Velocity	Energy on impact
124	1150 ft/s	364 ft/lb
147	1000 ft/s	326 ft/lb

So bigger ≠ better?

Ugh!

So what does this all mean for point-blank shootin'? I'm glad you're asking! I'm asking, too! I don't fucking know! Am I overthinking this? I'd like to think so, but the anecdotes and neurosurgeons I know make me think that most folks that shoot themselves in the head weren't thinking enough!

I would assume that energy and velocity at muzzle (initial position) and on impact (final position) should be considered equal when shooting point blank. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This is, after all, why we shoot against the skin. That and the transfer of the gasses themselves.

So, what do we think? If restricted in choice of firearm do we think lower grain might be the answer?

But, what about barrel length? What about exit holes? Is it better for the bullet not to exit because of potential ricocheting and compounding damage? Better not to exit because of the concentration of energy dispersal being localized inside the brain? Better TO exit because of implied high velocity, maximizing hollow point expansion? What about.....​

​

This is why I hated physics class. Too many variables, too little time. But, hey, something to think about in the meantime if overthinking is your hobby like it is mine! Cheers!

Tbh I'm thinking about going for a 454 Cassull. It's a revolver. For big game. You read that correctly. Point blank I do not expect to have much of a skull left. However, high or low grain? Idk. Shorter or longer barrel? IDK! Does it even matter at that point? lol no not at all haha there won't be a head.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

imo no human will survive a bullet travelling 3000 feet per second hit on the head. that's almost a kilometer per second. some of the rifles shown below do have that velocity. imo any grain above 30 going 3000 feet per second will explode the head.

imo the rifle method is 99.9% .

if you can get a rifle and ammunition that can fire a bullet 3000 feet per second

and if you practice a lot dry firing

no human or other land animal can survive a bullet going 3000 feet per second hitting the skull . it's just physics :

imagine a peice of metal travelling at almost 1 kilometer per second. what can survive that? imo nothing.

a bullet traveling at 99.99% the speed of light will do what you think? it will destroy the Earth.

here is an answer from an ai and i didn't ask google ai cause it's the most censored and probably might even report me. ai says even a grazing shot is 0% survivable

A 150-grain bullet traveling at 3000 fps (feet per second) — roughly 914 m/s — is a high-velocity rifle round (e.g., .308 Win, .270 Win, or 7mm-08 in hot loads). would be the very upper end of standard rifle velocities; true hyper-velocity starts closer to 4000+ fps).

For any land mammal (deer, elk, hog, bear, human, etc.), the likelihood of surviving a direct **brain hit** with this bullet is effectively **zero**.

### Why survival is essentially impossible:
- **Energy transfer**: A 150 gr bullet at 3000 fps carries ~3000–3200 ft-lbs of muzzle energy (depending on exact load). Even after some range loss, a head/brain shot still delivers 2000+ ft-lbs.
- **Hydrostatic shock & cavitation**: At these velocities, the temporary wound cavity in brain tissue is massive (often 10–20+ inches in diameter). Brain tissue is extremely fragile and does not tolerate this level of disruption.
- **Bullet construction matters slightly**:
- Expanding/soft-point/hollow-point (most hunting bullets): explodes inside the skull → immediate destruction of brainstem/cerebellum.
- Solid/FMJ (rarely used on game): still tumbles and fragments heavily in brain matter → same result.
- Documented real-world outcomes:
- Deer, elk, hogs, bears, African plains game, and humans all drop instantly or within 1–2 seconds on confirmed CNS (brain/spine) hits with this class of round.
- There are **no credible, verified cases** of a mammal surviving a direct brain shot with a centerfire rifle bullet of this power and velocity once the projectile fully penetrates the brain.

### Extremely rare exceptions (still not "survival" in any meaningful sense):
- Grazing hits that only clip the skull or scalp (not penetrating brain).
- Shots that pass through the jaw, nasal cavity, or neck without touching the brain.
- Very tough animals (e.g., large bears) with thick skulls that deflect or slow a marginal hit — but even then, if the brain is actually struck, the animal dies.

### Bottom line:
If the bullet **directly impacts and penetrates the brain** of any land mammal with a 150-grain bullet at ~3000 fps, survival probability is **< 0.1%** — essentially zero for all practical purposes. The animal is dead before it hits the ground.
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For a 150-grain rifle bullet striking the head at **3000 fps impact velocity** (i.e., the bullet is still moving 914 m/s when it hits the skull), the survival chance for **any land mammal** — from a rabbit to a grizzly bear — is effectively **zero** if the bullet actually penetrates and disrupts the brain.

### Why the outcome is the same or even more certain than at muzzle velocity:
- 3000 fps at impact means the shot was taken at very close range (under 100–150 yards for most .30-caliber cartridges), so the bullet has lost almost no energy or velocity.
- Kinetic energy at impact: ≈ 3000–3200 ft-lbs (exactly the same as muzzle energy for many factory loads).
- At this velocity, even heavily constructed bullets (CUP solids, FMJ, bonded hunting bullets) create massive temporary cavitation and hydrostatic shock in brain tissue. The brain is literally liquefied or shredded in a volume many times larger than the bullet diameter.
- The skull offers almost no meaningful resistance at this speed and energy; the bullet punches through and transfers virtually all its energy inside the cranium.

### Real-world data (hunting, military, forensic):
- Thousands of documented one-shot kills on deer, elk, moose, feral hogs, black bears, brown bears, African game (including buffalo and elephant when using proper tough bullets) with similar or lesser loads at close range — all instant or near-instant deaths on brain hits.
- Human forensic data (high-velocity rifle wounds to the head) show 100 % immediate incapacitation and 99+ % mortality when the brain is traversed.
- There are **zero verified cases** of any mammal (including the toughest — grizzly, cape buffalo, hippo on land) surviving a direct brain hit from a 150-grain bullet at 3000 fps impact velocity.

### Bottom line (unchanged from the previous answer, but even more emphatic):
If the bullet enters the braincase and the brain itself is struck at 3000 fps with a 150-grain projectile, survival probability is **0 %** for any land animal that has ever existed. Death is instantaneous (within 0–2 seconds at most).

---- here is part of the ai answer for shotgun slugs
99+ % of all land mammals (including humans, deer, elk, black bears, African plains game) die instantly from a solid brain hit with a 1.25 oz slug at 1500 fps.

 

[Flubber]

No Table is complete without a 50 cal BMG

 

[locked*n*loaded]

Sorry. Not buying that shotguns have lowest mortality. Maybe if someone uses birdshot and not buckshot, idk. A shotgun blast in the mouth is LIGHTS OUT. If using a handgun, I'd stick with a larger caliber, and make sure I chose a good defensive bullet with "nasty" expansion capabilities that inflicts more damage.