Discussion are people with "mental disorders" irrational?

[moonlightbeach]

recently there was a thread about people without physical or mental disabilities and i gained a lot of interest in it.

i've also been researching what makes a mental illness as every brain is different. it makes me wonder if mental illness is even a thing and if it needs to be "cured". what if it's just the society and capitalism that doesn't allow such people to function? what about people that survive trauma or suffer in poverty or others? i remember how being gay was considered a biological mistake. p.s. i do take meds but only to tranq my daily life to make it more bearable. i can't imagine actually living like this with such a big part of me suppressed.

the question is - if all humans have different brains and certain capacity to live and have suicidal ideation throughout their life, why is it that people with depression, personality disorders and schizophrenia are considered irrational and "their brain altered"? i've had voices in my head before, yes, but having a quick reflection it's just me after all. is this just another case of society having set their values to living and moving forward?

 

[kopebaldy]

Because it isn't "normal". What isn't "normal" is shunned.

What is normal is determined by the majority, people with mental disorders aren't the majority.

What we should and shouldn't do as a society is a much more complex question, "mental disorder" also a very, and I can't stress this enough, very broad terms.

I'm not smart enough to solve this problem, what I know is "normal" or not, we're very different to each other and everyone should be treated in a case-by-case basis.

But that's a perfect world which we aren't living in.

 

[cemeteryismyhome]

I don't think anyone actually knows what is normal and what isn't. Also, I think everyone is irrational most of the time, everyone is disordered in some way. I'm a little irritated with what I see as an increasing popular trend to invent a name or label for everything, identify by that, and buy/sell treatments. "I'm a blah-blah-blah and have xyz". No, I'm just me and I'm human, enough said. I don't blame people who seek help and feel better, that's great. For me, I'm suspicious and don't trust the system one bit.

 

[dreamingofpeace]

the first time i got a crisis assessment i talked to them about my experience of basically what u could consider did/osdd, tho im glad they never formally diagnosed me w that cus even without a diagnosis they were removing my autonomy telling me i cant make any medical decision for myself, cus "what if someone in your head that you havent met yet doesnt consent"....(which u could literally say about anyone) but they did immediately diagnose me with bpd after a 10 min conversation and when i asked why they said its because i self harm. literally the only reason they could give me and when i pushed the question they were like "and you have a history of unstable relationships" he was talking about the fact i was domestically abused. i got that diagnosis 6 years ago and all the "specialist therapy" ive had is 1 shrink listening to me talk about my trauma and giving no resources or coping skills + another telling me every neutral or happy movement and mannerism i have that's not neurotypical looking is actually a stress response. so enjoying the texture of something or bouncing my leg was proof that i was constantly miserable even if i feel happy...great way to make someone less suicidal i guess? tell them their positive emotions arent real?
then as soon as i mentioned transition she wasted every session for the rest of the year asking me graphic questions about my genitals, tryna probe me for the secret real reason im trans because she wanted to convince me i was mutilating my body due to trauma and that i needed conversion therapy. when i reported her the lead psych said i cant get mad cus it's my job to teach my therapist how to treat me like a human being and not a piece of meat + straight up told me that she has every right to be curious about my body. i was straight up begging her to let me talk about my actual problems because i wanted help and every single session she was making me being trans the problem. this is the only personality disorders service in my area and they wont refer me anyhwhere else cus ur blocked access from other types of therapy when u have a pd. the whole thing is bullshit

i do consider myself mentally ill whether or not i would be if society is different idk. no frame of reference. half the ways my brain protected me from trauma makes me ill and disables me so im fine seeing that as an illness but yeah my experiences with abuse in the system are constantly brushed off cus they get to decide my diagnoses means im irrational and confused

 

[Forveleth]

I remember when I was younger, anything outside of the norm was treated the same. Depressed people were "sick" as if they were in full-blown psychosis and detached from reality. New research has shown that people with many mental disorders can not only be rational, but can oftentimes be more concrete and observant [1].

I think "irrational" comes into it only when there is a thought process that has provable, concrete evidence to the contrary. For example, hallucinations alone are not irrational (we know this can happen in some people) but believing and acting on them could be (believing something that is known to be not real). People with depression often get stuck in thinking in terms of extremes "Good things will never happen", "I will always fail". While these events may be unlikely, one has to concede the extremes are in direct contrast to reality. Even now with suicidality, publications argue that there is rational thought behind it in some cases [2-3].

...it makes me wonder if mental illness is even a thing and if it needs to be "cured"...

Some practitioners (psychologist, GPs, etc) have started moving towards the notion of "living with" the disorder instead of "curing" it. An example I know is DID. The goal used to be full integration but now it can be functional multiplicity (who cares if you have multiple personalities if they can work in harmony?). Again, there is nuance to this as some illnesses/symptoms are more disruptive than others.

As one of the papers points out, non-mentally ill people can act/think irrationally so why should having a mental illness automatically disqualify one from being capable of being rational? So I do not think having a mental illness makes one irrational but rather one's thought patterns and actions, just like everyone else. Also, we are finding more and more people with "disorders" and, at this point, I do not think there is much of a "normal" anymore. So when there is no normal, there is no abnormal, merely a variety of types or patterns of thinking.

Citations:
1. https://eujap.uniri.hr/rationality-in-mental-disorders-too-little-or-too-much/
2. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4079241/
3. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0160252713000605

 

[dreamingofpeace]

Book of Lamentations

A new dystopian novel in the classic mode takes the form of a “dictionary of madness”

thenewinquiry.com

really good satirical review of the dsm 5 where they read it like it's an orwellian fiction

 

[Kalista]

"are people with "mental disorders" irrational?"

it needs to be said that the average human, including without 'mental disorders,' is irrational. every day, many engage in all kinds of harmful behaviors and beliefs -- whether social trends, personal habits, or widely accepted norms -- without any critical thought.

even if a person has a textbook 'mental disorder,' they are still capable of thinking and acting rationally. having a disorder does not erase the ability to think logically or act in their best interest. it is societal thinking that places individuals in the umbrella term 'mental disorder' or automatically labels them as 'crazy.'
a decision made by the person might look 'irrational' to outsiders, yet be completely rational to the person, as it aligns with their goals and values. the reasoning behind the action is ignored because others only care about the act without understanding the 'why' -- an ignorance that is widely shared.

society tends to only see the disorder and not the rest of the person, which often ostracizes the individual and cause more problems than they can handle, all due to ignorance and fear.

the question is - if all humans have different brains and certain capacity to live and have suicidal ideation throughout their life, why is it that people with depression, personality disorders and schizophrenia are considered irrational and "their brain altered"?

this is relative. people with these disorders live in a world where most brains don't have it. they are the minority and would have a more difficult time participating in the currently formed society without any sort of intervention.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Mental illness refers to a disorder that affects your mood, thinking, and behaviour. Typically they tend to cause emotional distress, impact your ability to function, and may lead to an increased chance of you causing harm to yourself or others. Terms like "normal" vs "abnormal" are also not commonly used by most psychologists, at least to my knowledge. Along with that, mental illness doesn't automatically equate to one being irrational. I don't know where you got this from, but there are plenty of mental illnesses that are not characterized by irrational thinking, such as trichotillomania and depression.

People with disorders, such as schizophrenia, which are characterized as causing one to be irrational are said to be irrational (at least when their mental illness isn't being managed) due to their disorders impacting their ability to use logic, evaluate evidence, problem solve, etc. While everyone can be irrational to some degree, people with these sorts of mental illnesses are irrational to a degree not commonly seen amongst the wider public, often to a point where it can cause distress and put themselves in danger. We can see this on this forum, since there have been several instances of members on here who have talked about how they are being gang stalked, along with other members talking about how they used to think this as well until they started being medicated for their mental illness and realized that this was not the case.

Also, I feel like the whole "homosexuality used to be classed as a mental illness" argument is a pretty lazy one. By that logic, all of medical science and evolutionary biology should be considered invalid fields as well, since they both have a long history of being heavily intertwined with racism and sexism. Humans are biased and these biases can sometimes seep into our work. Hence the importance of social justice working alongside the sciences, since it helps to ensure that we better pick up on and address those biases before they get the chance to taint any work that is being done.

All of this isn't to say that I don't believe that there are issues when it comes to the idea of certain mental illnesses. Some mental illnesses are questionable to me. However, many are not, especially the ones that have been recorded throughout history, such as depression and schizophrenia. A lot of these mental illnesses are noticeable and can't just be chalked up to not fitting in with modern societal expectations, since they have been acknowledged in some capacity long prior.

 

[popcorn1234]

I am of the opinion that people with mental disorders are having a rational reaction to the circumstances in their lives that are causing them suffering.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think they often diagnose mental illness when there is a change in that person. So- for example, they no longer have interest in things that used to bring them joy. Their appetite, sleep patterns and sex drive may be affected. I suppose there are certain symptoms that suggest something isn't quite right. Presumably, they feel it themselves too- that they've changed. Why else would they be looking for a diagnosis?

As to whether they are thinking rationally- perhaps not, if their perception has become skewed.

That in itself is tricky though. I imagine a lot of depressions for example, are triggered by unpleasant events. It's not rational to expect soneone to be happy about a breakup, a bereavement, redundancy, poverty, illness. If the shit keeps on coming- why should they keep meeting each new challenge with a positive attitude? We're beings that learn. If we learn that life is full of shit, why wouldn't we become pessimistic and cynical?

So, I suppose there has to be an analysis- how much of it is due to a genuinely bad circumstance and, how much of it is an exageratted pessimisn towards the situation?

The other important factor though is- can it be adequately cured? How much should people be expected to endure in terms of experimental treatment before it's agreed they are treatment resistant? Whether it's rational or not, it's making them feel like shit! If they can't cure that- surely, it should be given the same compassion as chronic or terminal physical illness.

 

[permanently tired]

There's the notion that mental disorder, irrationality and insanity are comorbid conditions. They are not intrinsically linked. It's merely bias from exposure as only the most extreme sensationalized stories are seen.

"Normal" ppl are irrational quite frequently, that's why they act impulsively when making purchases, have unprotected sex, and whatnot. They are more irrational than they realize. You'd have to be consciously aware of why you want to act at any given time to be perfectly rational and that's a learned thought process, not a "natural" one.

My conclusion is humanity isn't introspective enough. They hardly ever take the time to think abt themselves hence they cannot understand other ppl. They don't even know themselves. Ask yourself, "who am I?" If ur answer is hesitation it's bc introspection never occurred to you, if u don't know it's bc u haven't been able to define and sort through confusion. Should someone have an answer, I think it'd be something to do with the primary reason of choice. I believe the freedom to choose is what makes a person.

 

[tormentedhusk]

Depends on the disorder in my opinion.

 

[amerie]

None of us on this forum are irrational. I've seen so many "reasons why I want to CTB" posts, I've read the vents here, I see the type of people who come on this website.

Most of our problems COULD be fixable, but we'll never see that in our lifetime.

Although I think iq is a ridiculous concept, I'm pretty sure that people with high iq's are more likely to be depressed or suffer with mental illness because they're hyper aware of things average people can filter out, again I think iq is silly and I think that a lot of normal people are also equally as depressed and hang out on this forum a lot more than people with gifted iq's.

It's also not a coincidence that marginalized communities are more likely to CTB or suffer with cluster B disorders.

I don't think a lot of our problems are "irrational", we all have a story. Life literally IS fucked. Pretty sure we've witnessed 2 major wars in the past 3 years ALONE and we survived a global pandemic, our bodies weren't built to bounce back from such severe global stress. Not to mention, anytime we come close to becoming accepting there's always an annoying ass cycle of conservatism returning, it comes and waves and it's not consistent. It's so frustrating. Life is frustrating.

"Normal" ppl are irrational quite frequently, that's why they act impulsively when making purchases, have unprotected sex, and whatnot. They are more irrational than they realize.

Huh?? Where'd you get this from? Normal people aren't impulsive like that and those are symptoms of bipolar or other deficits in the brain…never met any mentally stable person who did that lol