Discussion Any 'Star Trek Next Generation' fans? Do you remember the episode 'Ethics'.

[Forever Sleep]

Season 5, Episode 16. (Spoiler alert.)

The Klingon 'Worf' is left injured and partly paralised during an accident in a loading bay. As a warrior, he feels ashamed and redundant. He considers the Klingon ceremony: Hegh'bat- suicide- which is considered an honorable way for a disabled warrior to die. He asks his Commander Reiker to assist him. I don't know whether he would actually have to kill him or, whether it was just to bring him the knife.

Reiker obviously feels really conflicted about it. In the end, he finds a clause in the tradition, that it should be up to the eldest son to do and Worf doesn't feel he can put his son through it. Of course, at the same time, they figure out this highly risky new surgery which of course- works.

But, the episode is really interesting. Kind of brave really because- both answers are kind of argued out and respected. That a warrior coming from such a strict tradition and now incapacitated would now likely have a poor quality of life and it should be his choice to end it. There again, that he had a son so- that role had its own nobility and responsibility. That his son didn't view him as the now failed warrior he did. Plus, the whole headache of assisting a suicide. I wonder if they would create something like that now. I don't watch all that much modern TV.

I liked the moral quandries though of that show. When there wasn't always a really clear answer. Similar to life sometimes.

 

[Forveleth]

LOVE this episode. I am a huge Klingon fan (need to learn it at some point) but also love that they tackled this issue. I was young at the time, but I had already watched many of my relatives grow old and feeble when this episode came out. At the ripe old age of like, 10, I decided that if someone was ready to end their life because they were miserable or did not want to go on, it was ok. I highly doubt a show would take on such a heavy, controversial topic now. Most modern TV seems to shy away from complex moral dilemmas.

I also really like the Voyager episode "Death Wish" where a member of the Q Continuum (Quinn) wants to become mortal so he can die. He wants to die because he is just plain bored and done with existence (dude, same). Q (another member of the Continuum) argues that he needs to stick around because he has been influential in the history of the human race. Some major events would not have happened without him. It is an interesting take on the "stay alive because you are needed" and "right to die because you are miserable" debate. Quinn ends up being made mortal and commits suicide pretty much immediately.

At the risk of sounding like the oldie I am, they do not make TV like this anymore.

 

[Macedonian1987]

I am a Star Trek TNG fan and i remember that episode well. I think that all people on earth should have the humane right to end their own lives when their suffering gets too imense.

I agree with all of you, they stopped making such great series and movies. That's why i stopped watching TV and going to the cinema long time ago.

 

[Forever Sleep]

LOVE this episode. I am a huge Klingon fan (need to learn it at some point) but also love that they tackled this issue. I was young at the time, but I had already watched many of my relatives grow old and feeble when this episode came out. At the ripe old age of like, 10, I decided that if someone was ready to end their life because they were miserable or did not want to go on, it was ok. I highly doubt a show would take on such a heavy, controversial topic now. Most modern TV seems to shy away from complex moral dilemmas.

I also really like the Voyager episode "Death Wish" where a member of the Q Continuum (Quinn) wants to become mortal so he can die. He wants to die because he is just plain bored and done with existence (dude, same). Q (another member of the Continuum) argues that he needs to stick around because he has been influential in the history of the human race. Some major events would not have happened without him. It is an interesting take on the "stay alive because you are needed" and "right to die because you are miserable" debate. Quinn ends up being made mortal and commits suicide pretty much immediately.

At the risk of sounding like the oldie I am, they do not make TV like this anymore.

I must look out for that 'Q' episode. I always loved him in The Next Generation. One of those characters that are part villain, part hero.

Do you remember the episode: 'The Most Toys' where Data is captured to become part of a museum? The guy running it is clearly awful and during his escape, it's revealed Data discharges a gun at him. Interesting again because it's a morally bad action that still felt justified.

 

[Dejected 55]

The episode is fine enough... but when you really think about it, something about it doesn't ring true. Klingons value an honorable death in war... but also somehow suicide counts? I mean, if suicide counts, why couldn't any warrior who didn't die in battle kill himself and be cool? It seems a little weird because I'm pretty sure this is the only time it comes up... and there are lots of times they talk about someone being doomed because they didn't die in battle. As a human ethical episode it works... as long as you don't look too hard at the Klingon-ness of it.

I personally think a better episode on suicide is the one, and I can't remember the name, but the one where Troi's mother is dating the dude where his people's custom is you MUST commit suicide at 60. So, depressed or not... happy or not... smart and doing good shit or not... old people must commit suicide "for the good of society." Troi is trying to save him... and at least for a while he doesn't want to die either... but at some point he becomes convinced of his customs and chooses to die after all.

It's a reverse suicide situation in a sense, because the guy doesn't want to, but his family and friends want him to...

 

[Forever Sleep]

The episode is fine enough... but when you really think about it, something about it doesn't ring true. Klingons value an honorable death in war... but also somehow suicide counts? I mean, if suicide counts, why couldn't any warrior who didn't die in battle kill himself and be cool? It seems a little weird because I'm pretty sure this is the only time it comes up... and there are lots of times they talk about someone being doomed because they didn't die in battle. As a human ethical episode it works... as long as you don't look too hard at the Klingon-ness of it.

I personally think a better episode on suicide is the one, and I can't remember the name, but the one where Troi's mother is dating the dude where his people's custom is you MUST commit suicide at 60. So, depressed or not... happy or not... smart and doing good shit or not... old people must commit suicide "for the good of society." Troi is trying to save him... and at least for a while he doesn't want to die either... but at some point he becomes convinced of his customs and chooses to die after all.

It's a reverse suicide situation in a sense, because the guy doesn't want to, but his family and friends want him to...

It's because Wolf was partially paralized that it was applicable I think. Because he couldn't physically fight or even look after himself- until he gets the surgery of course. But no- I doubt it would be seen as honourable for a Klingon who just didn't want to fight or, wasn't all that great at it to choose to suicide.

I'd forgotten about that other episode. That was excellent too. Plus, the guy was a scientist or something I think. So really- it was kind of stupid to kill him off at 50 or 60 or whatever it was. His mind likely would have stayed sharp for years to come I would have thought. Didn't he save his planet or something first?

But still- It was definitely interesting. Like in Midsommar- the same. If it was a countries custom, we maybe wouldn't view death the same. It would be expected too. More time to actually say goodbye.

 

[Dejected 55]

It's because Wolf was partially paralized that it was applicable I think. Because he couldn't physically fight or even look after himself- until he gets the surgery of course. But no- I doubt it would be seen as honourable for a Klingon who just didn't want to fight or, wasn't all that great at it to choose to suicide.

I'd forgotten about that other episode. That was excellent too. Plus, the guy was a scientist or something I think. So really- it was kind of stupid to kill him off at 50 or 60 or whatever it was. His mind likely would have stayed sharp for years to come I would have thought. Didn't he save his planet or something first?

But still- It was definitely interesting. Like in Midsommar- the same. If it was a countries custom, we maybe wouldn't view death the same. It would be expected too. More time to actually say goodbye.

Maybe... on the Klingon thing... it just seems like a weird Klingon loophole. Klingons supposedly didn't take prisoners and did not like themselves to be captured. I get the honorable death thing... but arguably with that mindset, it seems like a person who suffered a great injury and lived through it and did something else would be even more honorable? I mean, in the real world I get when people feel "worthless" after a devastating injury and feel like their life is over. Makes sense given our real-world sensibilities... and while it's possible to live a good life and do things, I can understand feeling like wanting to end it in that situation.

I think perhaps the better version of this kind of story was on Voyager... where Neelix had a couple of bad breaks... First he had his lungs removed and the Doctor created holographic lungs but Neelix would have to live on the Holodeck forever. The second time, in a later episode, he basically died BUT 7of9 brought him back with Borg technology and Neelix struggled feeling like he was supposed to be dead.

Meanwhile... on the forced suicide one... yeah, I think the scientist was working on something important, but couldn't finish unless he could live a few more years... but his people figured someone would take up his work and finish it and demanded he die or they would shun him and his work or something. It's almost a "be careful what you wish for" situation I've brought up in other conversations here. IF suicide becomes *too* accepted and *too* legalized, it might become part of the fabric and we could evolve into a society that start measuring value of people and encouraging suicide for someone perceived as "less than" even if that person could thrive and have a great life.

The old movie Logan's Run had a similar premise to the Star Trek one, except I think they were killing people at 30 or something... and an episode of Sliders had a "lottery" where you could withdraw all the money you wanted from ATMs but each $100 or something was like an entry into the lottery... and if you won the lottery your family got a bunch of money and you had to agree to be killed for population control.

I haven't seen the movie Midsommar, but I've heard of it.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Maybe... on the Klingon thing... it just seems like a weird Klingon loophole. Klingons supposedly didn't take prisoners and did not like themselves to be captured. I get the honorable death thing... but arguably with that mindset, it seems like a person who suffered a great injury and lived through it and did something else would be even more honorable? I mean, in the real world I get when people feel "worthless" after a devastating injury and feel like their life is over. Makes sense given our real-world sensibilities... and while it's possible to live a good life and do things, I can understand feeling like wanting to end it in that situation.

I think perhaps the better version of this kind of story was on Voyager... where Neelix had a couple of bad breaks... First he had his lungs removed and the Doctor created holographic lungs but Neelix would have to live on the Holodeck forever. The second time, in a later episode, he basically died BUT 7of9 brought him back with Borg technology and Neelix struggled feeling like he was supposed to be dead.

Meanwhile... on the forced suicide one... yeah, I think the scientist was working on something important, but couldn't finish unless he could live a few more years... but his people figured someone would take up his work and finish it and demanded he die or they would shun him and his work or something. It's almost a "be careful what you wish for" situation I've brought up in other conversations here. IF suicide becomes *too* accepted and *too* legalized, it might become part of the fabric and we could evolve into a society that start measuring value of people and encouraging suicide for someone perceived as "less than" even if that person could thrive and have a great life.

The old movie Logan's Run had a similar premise to the Star Trek one, except I think they were killing people at 30 or something... and an episode of Sliders had a "lottery" where you could withdraw all the money you wanted from ATMs but each $100 or something was like an entry into the lottery... and if you won the lottery your family got a bunch of money and you had to agree to be killed for population control.

I haven't seen the movie Midsommar, but I've heard of it.

True- the fact that Worf was a father made it complicated for me. Like- surely it couldn't be seen as honourable to abandon parenting duties. It kind of touches on whether it's more important to be self fulfilled and be able to fulfil a life path we find satisfying or whether other's needs of us ought to be enough to give our life value.

Those other cases sound really interesting. I haven't seen the Voyager series. But yeah- living a severely limited life obviously wouldn't feel like enough for some- maybe many people. It's annoying really- that it needs to be pointed out in a TV series! Plus, that people may not then translate that to real life.

Wow- that Logan's Run idea sounds brutal. Funny, they would accept that as a more acceptable way to live than say- restricting the number of children born to begin with. Or, maybe they did that too? Interesting though- to see different ideas for a society modelled.

 

[Dejected 55]

Wow- that Logan's Run idea sounds brutal. Funny, they would accept that as a more acceptable way to live than say- restricting the number of children born to begin with. Or, maybe they did that too? Interesting though- to see different ideas for a society modelled.

Voyager has a lot of really good re-watchable episodes. You ought to give it a run through at least once if you're into Star Trek.

Logan's Run was the cutoff at 30s... Sliders was a different show that did the lottery. Actually a B-plot on that episode was a group that was protesting the suicide lottery and advocating for reducing births and stuff like you said in lieu of killing people to control population.

 

[DarkRange55]